Nvidia RTX Discussion

xtal191

Skerries

that video is helping me decide about my plans about going for a Vega 64
I can get a Sapphire Nitro version for €500 which I think would go well with my 2700x Freesync build

btkm8unsl0w5r4

If you have 500 euro to spend get a 1080ti second hand, vega was never and will never be a good decision.

K.O.Kiki

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

If you have 500 euro to spend get a 1080ti second hand, vega was never and will never be a good decision.

Vega 64

Vega 56 is good value at 350-400.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Vega 64

Vega 56 is good value at 350-400.

Nope.... if its the value flag you want to wave, then a second hand 1080 at that price is the only way to go. If you going last gen then the used market has to be included, the only reason to by new is to get latest gen.

TerrorFirmer

That's a bit silly.

New card has full warranty and support, also Freesysnc support, not to mention the Nitro 64 is probably the best 64 card available. I would rather a new Nitro Vega 64 over a 2nd hand 1080.

Also Vega 56 at around €400 new with 3 new release games from OCUK is great value.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

That's a bit silly.

New card has full warranty and support, also Freesysnc support, not to mention the Nitro 64 is probably the best 64 card available. I would rather a new Nitro Vega 64 over a 2nd hand 1080.

Also Vega 56 at around €400 new with 3 new release games from OCUK is great value.

I am referring to the 56 card versus a 1080. The 64 is up against the 1080ti. The 1080 is still considerably faster for the same money than the 54. Freesync support...ok if that important to you then your stuck unless you use that silly workaround. The Nitro 64 may be the best card out there, but in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king. :pac::pac::pac:

Most 1080s are still under warranty being released in only 2016, the paranoid might buy one second hand and immediately RMA it and get a new one I dont understand people obsession with new GPU's..and certainly the value:performance discussion on this thread has some logical holes in it with people choosing to discount the used market for some reason best known only to them but on the other hand holding price:performance as the metric by which all will be judged.

TerrorFirmer

I'm not sure at this point between those comments and some of the ones on the RTX thread if you're genuinely being sincere or just subtly trolling.

The vast majority of 2nd hand GPUs don't have transferable warranties, most manufacturers will insist you RMA through the retailer you purchased from.....so even if the seller is willing to accommodate that (and most would not), it's still major hassle for both the buyer and original seller and certainly has a degree of risk.

The exception would be EVGA who have fantastic transferable warranty but there's no the remotest chance you're getting a 2nd hand EVGA 1080Ti for anything close to the price of a Vega 64.

certainly the value:performance discussion on this thread has some logical holes in it with people choosing to discount the used market for some reason best known only to them but on the other hand holding price:performance as the metric by which all will be judged.

That's an absurd twist of logic. People buy new because they're buying peace of mind and a warranty as well as the actual product itself. There is zero hypocrisy or logical holes of any description there.

Sure why does anyone buy a new car when they can get 'better value' 2nd hand? It's all relative, but it's hardly hypocritical or a logical fallacy to buy a new car over a used one.

Buy your Vega 64 Nitro new, have 3 years of solid performance backed up with peace of mind. Buy a 2nd hand GTX1080ti for a little more, enjoy better performance, but it might break in 3 months....a year...or it might never break. Who knows? That's up to the buyer to decide how much the risk is worth.

But painting people as hypocrites for not wanting to take that risk is ridiculous.

Skerries

are you still using your Vega 64 Terror and how do you find it as regards noise and power consumption?

btkm8unsl0w5r4

used the car analogy myself in this thread before. I agree, why do people buy new cars unless they are getting the new model? Warranties are easy to buy. I am sencere but do like some levity to the dicussion....its computer games after all its supposed to be fun

500-600 is the adverts 1080ti price, there is a watercooled AIO EVGA model up for 650 at the moment, I would say 600 would get it. Thats close to the price of a Vega 64 and its a far better card

So long as you have the original receipt or invoice number returning a non transferable warranty or a carry-in warranty is no problem, I have done it a number of times (never on a GPU only GPU I ever returned was a new one with terrible coil whine, shame I couldn't test it before purchase ).

Nobody is being called a hypocrite, I just think people dont follow their own logic to the conclusion. People are going out an buying last gen new...its crazy stuff and the companies must be laughing their heads off. People are outraged only enough to justify the decisions they had already made.

Skerries wrote: »

are you still using your Vega 64 Terror and how do you find it as regards noise and power consumption?

We all confirmation bias dont we.

TerrorFirmer

Skerries wrote: »

are you still using your Vega 64 Terror and how do you find it as regards noise and power consumption?

Nope, not because it was inherently a Vega, but the model I bought was a heap of trash.

Gigabyte. Noticing a common trend on their lower end amd cards. Crap noisy coolers that were designed for nvidia cards and just slapped on AMD as an afterthought.

Back using my 390x for a bit but it's so loud (gigabyte g1) I had to take it out also.

Now using an evga 1070 and fairly happy but I'm eying up either the Nitro 64 or a 2nd hand evga 1080ti.

TerrorFirmer

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

So long as you have the original receipt or invoice number returning a non transferable warranty or a carry-in warranty is no problem, I have done it a number of times (never on a GPU only GPU I ever returned was a new one with terrible coil whine, shame I couldn't test it before purchase

With Evga this is true, almost every other manufacturer will tell you to go through the retailer.....who is turn will only deal with the original buyer.

Even those few manufacturers who will accept a card directly will not deal with anyone other than the original buyer.

SO unless you buy Evga, or from a seller you trust 100% to handle any possible return on your part down the line, you've got little to no warranty, no matter how old the card actually is.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

With Evga this is true, almost every other manufacturer will tell you to go through the retailer.....who is turn will only deal with the original buyer.

Even those few manufacturers who will accept a card directly will not deal with anyone other than the original buyer.

SO unless you buy Evga, or from a seller you trust 100% to handle any possible return on your part down the line, you've got little to no warranty, no matter how old the card actually is.

I have RMA. corsair, Asus and MSI products I got second hand without a problem at all and no input from the original buyer. I email the place it was originally purchased and so long as they have a invoice number they dont care at all., they sort the RMA and away we go.

You know your going to get a 1080ti that second hand is the smart money. If your keen on EVGA there are tons about. EVGA 1080ti's are not that quiet, they had the problem with the VRM's overheating in furmark with the ACX 3.0 cooler models. There was a bios update that ramped the fans up and made them a bit loud. Either flash the bios back or avoid the ACX models.

K.O.Kiki

Just to reiterate: Vega 64 was never good value. Priced too high for its performance, utterly trounced by the 1080 Ti.

But Vega 56 at/below RRP makes good sense for 1440p Freesync gaming.

TerrorFirmer

Vega 64 has dropped though. OCUK have a few for £449 and at one point even lower. They have the Nitro 64 - best of the Vegas - for £499 but it was £449 short time ago.

Considering it comes with 3 free new releases, if you've a Freesync monitor, Vega is a good deal now. The 56 is cheaper than any 1070, and the 64 is priced around the same or lower than the 1080.

tuxy

Some more info on Turing cores

The RTX 2070 have been binned by Nvidia
There is the TU106-400-A1 and TU106-400A-A1 with the 400A overclocking better and coming on the €620 cards and the non A coming on the cheaper €520 cards.
You can no longer go with the cheapest card, crank the fan and power up a bit and hope you win the silicon lottery.
The 400(non A) does not like extra volts and will be unstable.

Looks like Nvidia will have revision A and non revision A on 2080 and 2080ti also. I've not looked into it more yet but I think all cards 2080/ti cards are Rev A right now and we will see cheaper lower clocked models in the future.

Just another thing to take into consideration for anyone buying Turing cards.

tuxy

Edit: It would seem nvidia is already doing this with 2080/ti cards

So for example

Gigabyte NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 Ti 11GB WINDFORCE(€1,248.49) = TU102-300
Gigabyte NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 Ti 11GB GAMING OC(€1,362) = TU102-300A

Most reviewers have overlooked this so if you search for benchmarks for the 2080 Ti it will probably be of the TU102-300A not TU102-300
You will have to pay €100+ extra if you want to ensure you are getting the fastest chip, the more expensive version will also come with a slightly more robust cooling solution in some but not all cases.

Icyseanfitz

what a joke

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

what a joke

Just to play devil advocate again, is this not old news....the "a" skew denoting the chip that board partners use for factory overclocked models and founders editions. And the non a for the reference cards. Does it not denote the the overclock potential? And as such anyone buying a reference boards knows that they are not going to have the OC headroom. I dont know that their is conspiracy in this.....

Old enough news......
https://www.thenerdmag.com/difference-between-nvidia-tu102-300-vs-tu102-300a-turing-a-and-non-a-gpu-variants/

tuxy

You're right it's not new news and it's not a conspiracy but I was totally unaware of it until last night as very few reviewers covered this and turning is the first time Nvidia have implemented such a strategy. Are nvidia and board partners not making this clear to reviewers?
I think it's a relatively important point. From most reviews you would be lead to believe the only difference between different priced cards in the same range is the PCB and cooling solution.

I think board partners have binned chips in the past but this is the first generation Nvida has done so, I am open to correction on this though.

Xenoronin

I think you're right tuxy. Binned chips have always existed. I think Nvidia is just being more obvious about it this time. Why now is the obvious question, but I'm betting on either legal reasons, or Nvidia realising a better margin from partners by pre-binning.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

In a way you have a point. the power limits on turing cards mean that cards withouyt headroom cant just be given voltage and run hotter, the power limit will kick in early. It just means there is less silicon lottery in it. Is that good or bad? If you want a overclocked card, buy one factory. Your unlikely to get a reference card that will overclock like a champ. I would say its a function of the yield on such a big die. Also we have nothing yet to stress the entire chip, and when RTX and turing cores are going full the thermals and power limits of these chips may be quite different

tuxy

My only problem is that since this is something that is new with turning it should be explained in the reviews.
Without the well known reviewers covering this the majority of consumers will have no idea.
Nvidia have forced all reviews to review the cheaper chip in the 2070 range if they want to review the higher end ones, this is not necessarily a bad thing but it would seem Nvidia have failed to explain to these reviews that these are two different revisions of the chip.

Icyseanfitz

Probably has existed for ever but with how blatant they are due to lack of competition is slightly sickening.

tuxy

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Probably has existed for ever but with how blatant they are due to lack of competition is slightly sickening.

Not that I'm aware of. Before people would often go for the cheaper card if they don't want the upgraded cooling solution and PCB and often got lucky which the chip they got. This is no longer the case as the chip will be binned before the board partners get it.

Cuddlesworth

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Probably has existed for ever but with how blatant they are due to lack of competition is slightly sickening.

It hasn't, board partners binned the chips not AMD/Nvidia. I'd like to say boo urns to Nvidia but its not exactly surprising.

We have gone from,
here is a graphics card
to here is a graphics card and here is one with with better cooling
to here is a graphics card and here is one with better cooling and a OC already in place.
to here is a graphics card and here is one that is a better chip with better cooling and a OC(FTW etc).
to here is a graphics card that overclocks itself and here is one that is a better chip with better cooling so it OC's itself more.
to finally here is a graphics card that overclocks itself and here is one that is better at being better and we are charging more for it to get a slice of that premium pie.

Venom

tuxy wrote: »

Not that I'm aware of. Before people would often go for the cheaper card if they don't want the upgraded cooling solution and PCB and often got lucky which the chip they got. This is no longer the case as the chip will be binned before the board partners get it.

I recall back in the day flashing the bios from a higher tier card to a lower tiered one, to boost the performance up a tad. These days that's pretty rare as each AIB brand has multiple versions of the same card right from day one at different price points.

L

I think what annoys me about them binning their chips is less that they're doing it, and more that they're only reflecting it in having higher priced golden chips.

Part of the price of hardware is supposed to be an averaging effect from the chances to get a good chip and a bad chip. If you keep that averaged price, but cream off the good chips for "A" chips...

(I realise what could be lower binned top end chips get recycled into the lower tier GPUs, but still, it's a bit rich)

.G.

tuxy wrote: »

Edit: It would seem nvidia is already doing this with 2080/ti cards

So for example

Gigabyte NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 Ti 11GB WINDFORCE(€1,248.49) = TU102-300
Gigabyte NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 Ti 11GB GAMING OC(€1,362) = TU102-300A

Most reviewers have overlooked this so if you search for benchmarks for the 2080 Ti it will probably be of the TU102-300A not TU102-300
You will have to pay €100+ extra if you want to ensure you are getting the fastest chip, the more expensive version will also come with a slightly more robust cooling solution in some but not all cases.

I've checked Overclockers and Scan and its not even possible to tell which card has which chip from the listings, the only indicator is price and that probably isn't a guarantee your getting the binned chip.

Interestingly Overclockers have a few 2080ti's in stock now so they aren't all selling like hotcakes. Maybe sanity has prevailed.

K.O.Kiki

superg wrote: »

I've checked Overclockers and Scan and its not even possible to tell which card has which chip from the listings, the only indicator is price and that probably isn't a guarantee your getting the binned chip.

Interestingly Overclockers have a few 2080ti's in stock now so they aren't all selling like hotcakes. Maybe sanity has prevailed.

That or everyone is saving their money for flights outta the UK :pac: