Nvidia RTX Discussion

K.O.Kiki

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120598788#Comment_120598788

It's a bit over twice as fast and has twice the VRAM.

Only question is if you want to pay the Nvidia premium vs 7900 XT / XTX.

Cordell

The Nvidia premium also means significant RT performance improvement and DLSS 3. Well worth it, at least at this price level.

Slutmonkey57b

The fact that nvidia lean so heavily on DLSS being "worth it" and have persuaded people of that is amazing. They're charging you 2x what they used to charge, while quietly admitting that they have to run at lower resolutions and hack the image in order to make the framerates. And people cheer them for it!

At "this price level" there shouldn't be *any* consumer gpu's full stop.

Cordell

AMD and Intel trying to come up with their own implementation is proof that DLSS is actually worth it.

As for the prices, we're spoiled for choice. There are gaming GPUs starting from as low as 200 euros, and there are enthusiast level GPU for close to 2000. As long as people are willing to pay for it, there will be "this price level", whatever "this price level" may be.

Slutmonkey57b

It's proof that hardware and game design is stagnating and they're papering over the cracks.

There's no reason why entry level gpu's shouldn't be 130, and high level should be 500, not 1500. Not sure why "we're too stupid and desperate to stand up for ourselves as consumers" is considered a winning strategy for gamers.

If you have to use an upscaling technology to hit a framerate at 1440 or 4k, then why not just play on a console?

Cordell

If you have to use an upscaling technology to hit a framerate at 1440 or 4k, then why not just play on a console?

Consoles have their own upscaling, and it's not as good as DLSS.

_CreeD_

DLSS 2 upscaling is phenomenally good. No other method has come close to it in terms of fidelity and performance. Without it Nvidia still beats AMD so saying that it's some sort of requirement is completely wrong, it's a very big plus when you are trying to play 4k and RT (or PT now). Support is also much greater for it than FSR etc. I'd say more people made the jump from 1080p to 4k than 1440p due to wanting TV options and future proofing and that meant a 4x jump in pixel count, the single biggest this industry has seen so far, RT was also a HUGE jump in complexity, there was no way vertical scaling on raw processing was going to cut it for any vendor. Nvidia just came up with the best way to scale horizontally. I'm not a fanboy, I buy the best I can afford at the time and yep Nvidia are not exactly going out of their way to be consumer friendly pricewise but their additional feature set is impressive, immediately useful and very much a strong buying consideration (even if you choose not to go that route because you don't need or want to push into 4K/RT settings it should be with that knowledge).

Icyseanfitz

Isn't the 7900xtx better than the 4080 in standard rasterization though? While costing a good chunk less.

Slutmonkey57b

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120603216#Comment_120603216

Equally, you're playing it on a TV at a much greater distance, so you're not likely to notice.

Slutmonkey57b

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120604184#Comment_120604184

If you're using upscaling, then you're not playing at 4k. You're paying a fortune to pretend that you're getting something you're not. And meanwhile, something more noticeable (textures and draw distance) is crippled by smaller amounts of ram because you're being ripped off, and apparently happy about it.

Also not sure how DLSS which requires specific training on individual games can be more supported than a technology which doesn't. Either games support ray tracing or they don't. DLSS as a technology relies on offline model training profiles bring added in by nvidia, not the game.

Also

https://youtu.be/Iy3ikm8MxOM

Cordell

DLSS 2 doesn't require training for individual games.

DLSS is a optional feature, you don't have to use it. It doesn't matter what the internal rendering resolution is, what it matters is what it is displayed, and that is in pretty much every case the same or better than native resolution rendering, with the added bonus of higher framerates.

_CreeD_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120606328#Comment_120606328

I don't 'need' upscaling, I have a 4090, for better or worse I can run pretty much anything at 4k native/ultra etc. hitting my TV's refresh limit of 120hz. DLSS for me is the difference between 90FPS with RT in most titles or humming along nicely at that refresh ceiling :) . It's an option that you don't have on a non-Nvidia card, plain and simple. Want to play Cyberpunk 2077 with Path-Tracing at 4k? I can with DLSS3 at 60FPS plus, anything else? not remotely playable. I don't have to use the new PT mode, I can choose to with DLSS.

Are you seeing that point yet?

And I completely agree NVidia missed the mark on many fronts, Price to performance, low Vram (starting from the 30x0 gen), trying to shaft customers with misleading card-class numbers etc. Specifically though to what I have engaged on here - DLSS is not one of those failures.

Shlippery

Sorry for stirring up a bit of a debate. It is mad that I paid £762 for the RTX 2080 when it come out originally and I thought that was bonkers. (Dec 2018 according to my invoice) Was a mega leap at the time. Spending over €1000 is mad but at the same time...if I got another 4/5 years outta the 4080 - it's probably not that bad. Maybe. Have grown to hate this 2080 over the years (and its stupidly noisy under any load, so a bit more of a drive to replace it)

Still have Cyberpunk in my backlog so would be nice to crack into that with the new Ray tracing updates.

TheChrisD

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/geforce-rtx-4060-4060ti/

4060Ti 8GB GDDR6, $400, May 24th

4060Ti 16GB GDDR6, $500, July

4060 8GB GDDR6, $300, July

K.O.Kiki

Nvidia RTX 4060 & 4060 Ti 8/16Gb specs

$299, 399 & 499

RIP low-end Nvidia.

Icyseanfitz

First real compelling line up from this generation imo, nice to see the 4060ti is staying at the same msrp as the 3060ti, I wonder what performance increase you would get from upgrade from a 1080ti @ ultra wide 1440p

Cordell

Prices look ok, 1060 was 250, 2060 was 350. Performance gain, not so much.

Slutmonkey57b

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120606644#Comment_120606644

Just to be clear, you're claiming that interpolated frames upscaled from a lower resolution look *better* than native?

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120613257#Comment_120613257

Yes, there are many cases in which the upscaled (which is not a mere interpolation) image look better. There are may other cases in which there is no visible difference in quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5B_dqi_Syc

Slutmonkey57b

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120608299#Comment_120608299

I didn't call DLSS a failure, I called it a bait and switch to cover up that hardware and software are failing to keep up.

Your 4090 has achieved that result with insane power draw, a broken fire hazard of a connector and its ultimate secret sauce of increasing the l2 cache by a factor of 11.

What you're getting is a massive hole in your wallet and lied to, but apparently like many gamers you're happy to do it for virtual bragging rights.

K.O.Kiki

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/rtx-40-series-vram-video-memory-explained/

4060 Ti isn't even 2x faster than 2060 Super from 4 years ago...

Icyseanfitz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120616349#Comment_120616349

So without frame generation it's 15% faster than a 3060ti....🤦

K.O.Kiki

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2b0MWGwK_U

Nvidia are just insulting the consumer now.

Slutmonkey57b

"there was a time when nvidia was targeting 4k gaming at 400 dollars... Not anymore".

Nvidia have been insulting consumers for years, but on the other hand, DLSS... Apparently that's good enough to open your wallet for a fleecing.

Slutmonkey57b

Oh look, it's only running x8 and if you cut it down to x4 using tape... No performance loss. Amazing product!

https://youtu.be/SIugY8lDJhY

Cordell

There is a 5-10% performance loss according to him, is there are reason it should be more? It's 8x on a Gen 4 bus, that is equivalent to the full 16x Gen 3, and that is not a bottleneck until you get to the 4080 performance territory. I would say the memory bus width is a bigger problem.

Performance is in line with what they announced, under 20% gain over 3060 Ti. The only benefits are DLSS 3 and lower power consumption, if anyone cares about that.

Slutmonkey57b

It's a bottleneck if you're running a gen 3 motherboard, which was the default up to very recently. Particularly for "midrange" buyers who don't upgrade as frequently, and tend to change one or two parts at a time rather than complete changes. On the other hand, "midrange" buyers are less likely to think paying 400 quid for mediocre 1080p framerates and 0 future proofing is a good idea in the first place,so probably aren't interested.

Icyseanfitz

good guy nvidia :D ffs the one tier card that they havnt increased the msrp on is pointless.

_CreeD_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120613330#Comment_120613330

Oh dear. I stayed off of this for a while because there's only so much 'but..but' I indulge anymore.

Seriously, dude. You've already shown a few times you don't understand the tech. From DLSS 2 NOT requiring training to talking about interpolation which is essentially DLSS 3 and not 2 (which if we were discussing it specifically I would agree has only subjective and not objective application vs. DLSS 2 which is just win-win). My 4090 runs around 540 W max, most of the time 440W (and before you do another but..but... I take that kind of thing seriously too, I monitored it via HWINFO for weeks on and off and my PSU has a smart monitor on top to show me it's 'real power draw). Not ideal but I've had worse (I ran SLI'd 480s in the day...in Texas where the heat/AC tax itself was bad enough :) ). That's less than i pay for Netflix in cost per year, and considering I have been a hardcore gamer since my first C64 in 1983 it's worth it to me for ultra fidelity on great displays. Often I couldn't remotely afford high end tech per gen, currently I can, in the future maybe not so I do not take it for granted or want that extreme of Price/Perf to remain. But for now? GLORIOUS nerdage.

I don't have a massive hole in my wallet. I'm not stupid. I made an adult decision to invest in something I have enjoyed since day-1. Do I wish it was cheaper? Sure. Does my wife...O_o.... but regardless of how much they have fk'd up the rest of the lineup you really can't argue the 4090 is not a beast of a card. It delivers, at a high price, on everything you can want today in terms of features and performance. It's the biggest jump in any generation that I've ever seen, though yes in cost aswell.

Stop just jumping in with what really looks like 'whataboutery'. There are valid points to be made about NVIDIA sucking and you've touched on them, but focus. NVIDA since 3k have been assholes to the consumer, 4k they doubled down, BUT.... they have some seriously good fkn engineers who have developed some great tech that the company has used to abuse customers in many cases. Pick your battles, DLSS is a hill you've already died on.

Slutmonkey57b

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120656268#Comment_120656268

Of the three versions released so far, only v2 did not require game specific updates. The reason for that was competitive pressure, since AMD released FSR in the interim, and DLSS adoption at that point was poor.

DLSS 3 generates frames from (almost) scratch. Interpolation is a more generalised term which can be applied to a number of techniques.

I am not sure "I'm from texas and I know how to waste energy like you wouldn't believe" is really much of a defence for the product, or paints you in the particularly clever light you seem to think it does.

For the 3k generation, nvidia actually rowed back slightly at launch msrp compared to the 2k series, however the crypto and lockdown boom immediately afterwards proved a few things to them: there is a cohort of gamers stupid enough to pay whatever they want which is large enough to eat significant quantities of inventory, and that selling gpu's to the not-gamer market is sustainable to the point where gamers are a backup revenue stream anyway, so here we are with the shittiest generation of cards in a very long time. Mind you, Samsung were giving them inventory for free at one point because of contract beaches on yield rates, so even though their price/performance improved on the surface, they were actually scamming even more or of people than usual.

As for your deep concern about "ultra fidelity", once again: upscaling is not "equal fidelity" to native. Either you're happy with upscaling, or you're concerned with ultra fidelity, but don't kid yourself that you can have both. Also you probably can't tell the difference between "ultra" and "high" anyway.

https://youtu.be/f1n1sIQM5wc

Your post literally repeats my point: you're a gamer who is so excited to be able to fling money at your hobby you'll twist yourself into knots to justify why a company scamming you, isn't scamming you, because look at this press release from the company saying what a great job they are doing.

Feel free to kid yourself but I object to people looking for purchasing advice on a budget being given **** advice that upscaling is a "benefit" to them when in reality it's a benefit to the manufacturer to cover up lagging performance improvements.