Is this a common attitude towards fatherhood in Ireland?

karen42

I originally posted this one in humanities but I realize it's become a personal issue because it bothers me.

I'm under 30 and in-laws are Irish and live sort of on the countryside (about 1 hr from Dublin).

My husband is 1 of 8 and most of his siblings are over 40 and his dad is 70. His dad was not home much, just 'put money on the table', and did little to no housework or childcare etc.

Where I am from there are not too many modern-day dads (under 40) who are content to just be 'a hands-off provider'. Even if they are the family breadwinner they still strive to be quite involved with their kids and spend time with them. It's mostly seen as a joint-responsibility to raise children and a dad is a co-parent, not an inadequate babysitter 'giving mum a break'.

My in-laws seem to still follow the outdated view of fatherhood. Mum stays home for decades, does all the childcare, all the cleaning, and the fathers would be completely clueless and probably never changed a nappy in their life. I can't fathom why any woman would want to be with a man who is not an equal partner. I find it quite contradictory that they are also in a cohabitation situation with the children's fathers and there are multiple fathers.

Unfortunately, my in-laws have passed on their view of fatherhood to their kids and often when they visit us they say things like 'oh he's probably used to cleaning by now' as if cleaning was only a female responsibility. They often assume I'll be the one to make dinner and that my husband would need help minding his own daughter.

Is this a common thing in Ireland? To hold these views?

I guess I'm sensitive to sexism and I have to put up with this every time I see them and it bothers me.

DavyD_83

Yes, it is still quite common.
Although Ireland has become more modern and progressive generally, there are still a lot of social norms and beliefs that are firmly in the past, particularly in certain areas, and among certain demographics.

fineso.mom

Its not common in my experience. I have quite a few brothers aged 40s to 50s and every one of them did their share of housework and taking care of their children. Any of my friends that I can tgink of in the same age group would be the same. 50s upwards though...yeah I think they would have been brought up in a time where housework/childacare was seen as a womans job.
If anyone makes comments about your husband cleaning etc , I would just raise my eyebrows and say something like "Yeah? Why wouldnt he?"..and let them make a fool of themselves trying to explain why a grown man cant clean up in his own house.
And just to add, I come from a rural area and cant think of any of my neighbours in the 40s age group who would be old fashioned like that.

FurBabyMomma

Very common attitude. My husband is a fantastic hands-on father, does the cooking and puts in the work around the house. My mother is amazed by him and any time I leave him with the kids she worries about him being able to handle it, even though he's well able.

I may point out she is very overprotective and has my dad convinced he's a buffoon who couldn't manage children, to the point he was too afraid to hold my newborn. She also wouldn't let me or my siblings use the cooker when growing up and did all the cleaning, with the result that all 3 of us left home with zero domestic skills. It really did us a disservice. Luckily I met my husband young so I'm some way capable now, although still a terrible cook.

I think the older generation haven't wised up to the fact that society has changed a lot in the last few generations. Often both parents are working and live far away from family support, so it's only natural that the roles of parents have evolved to be more equal (or at least should have).

LegacyUser

Not common in my experience either - most fathers I know will do their share. This is including my own, now in his sixties, who would have been very active with us in the eighties and nineties. Naturally when he was the breadwinner and my mother was home with us she did more, but even then he was never averse to taking us out solo, feeding, changing nappies etc.

Those who subscribe to the notion that it’s ‘women’s work’ nowadays just have no interest and likely use it to get out of actual parenting, the hard work bit. The few of these I’ve encountered probably shouldn’t have had children.

eviltwin

common enough, we both work full time and I study and volunteer on top of that so my other half is often left parenting solo and some people think he's a god for it. I do the same thing and it's not mentioned. Funnily enough it's mostly young women who go on about it. Any of my male friends expect that a man will step up to the plate.

bee06

My husband has always done his fair share of the cooking, cleaning etc. I always say I’m not sure I could have married him if he couldn’t cook. He is very hands on with our baby as well. I’m probably lucky in that his father also does his fair share of the cooking too so it’s the norm for him. His mom worked growing up so they had a very equal household.

My brothers on the other hand never lifted a finger growing up and couldn’t cook to save their lives when they moved out. The older one learned to cook alright but I’m pretty sure the majority of the housework falls on his wife (he lives abroad so can’t say for sure). My mom did them such a disservice in the long run.

nikkibikki

My father in law would've been a hands off Dad but my husband is the opposite. Very hands on. He did have to be shown how to use a washing machine, oven, dishwasher etc when he moved in with me but he was an enthusiastic learner. I told him from day one as we both work full time, it's up to both of us to do the jobs. It's different now, I am home full time but have a chronic illness and he works part time and studies part time and we've 3 small kids. I do all the cooking but he does a good bit of house work as I am not able to do a lot of it.

I think attitudes are changing. Lots of the younger Dads are more than happy to be involved more with their kids than their Dads were with them.

Big Bag of Chips

Is it a personal issue for you, though? You say your in-laws have this attitude.... But does your husband? If your husband is a hands on father and does as much around the house as you do, and doesn't expect to be waited on hand and foot, then I don't see how this is actually a problem for you.

His parents and siblings can hold whatever opinions they like, unless they are actively interfering in your life, then I'd just pay no attention to them.

karen42

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Is it a personal issue for you, though? You say your in-laws have this attitude.... But does your husband? If your husband is a hands on father and does as much around the house as you do, and doesn't expect to be waited on hand and foot, then I don't see how this is actually a problem for you.

His parents and siblings can hold whatever opinions they like, unless they are actively interfering in your life, then I'd just pay no attention to them.

It's a personal issue because every time I have to see my in-laws there are some of these old-school comments and it bothers me. I'm sensitive to sexism.

Looking after kids is second nature to my husband so I don't even know why they would be making these comments.

I also can't believe that my SIL is OK with her 12-year-old thinking like this. I mean... would you not want to tell your girls that they can follow their dreams and not be limited to being a cleaner?

What would interference look like in this situation?

bee06

karen42 wrote: »

It's a personal issue because every time I have to see my in-laws there are some of these old-school comments and it bothers me. I'm sensitive to sexism.

Looking after kids is second nature to my husband so I don't even know why they would be making these comments.

I also can't believe that my SIL is OK with her 12-year-old thinking like this. I mean... would you not want to tell your girls that they can follow their dreams and not be limited to being a cleaner?

What would interference look like in this situation?

Why doesn’t your husband set them straight?

Regarding your SIL and niece, I grew up in a house where my mom did all the cooking, cleaning, changed every nappy etc etc. She has three daughters who did most defintely not grow up to think we should do the same.

meeeeh

karen42 wrote: »

It's a personal issue because every time I have to see my in-laws there are some of these old-school comments and it bothers me. I'm sensitive to sexism.

Looking after kids is second nature to my husband so I don't even know why they would be making these comments.

I also can't believe that my SIL is OK with her 12-year-old thinking like this. I mean... would you not want to tell your girls that they can follow their dreams and not be limited to being a cleaner?

What would interference look like in this situation?

Anyone who actually liked their in-laws would just brush off those comments or tell them to stop with the nonsense. Your problem is not sexism but the fact you don't like your in-laws.

As for division of labour the right one is the one that works for the couple. Weather it's modern or old-fashioned it's irrelevant.

Ursus Horribilis

Unless you're planning on shipping the kids out to live with your in-laws, I don't see what the problem is. You can't control the attitudes of your in-laws. If you're bringing up your own children in a home which is to your values, those are the ones that are going to influence your children. Not throwaway comments from their relatives.

Big Bag of Chips

But, OP, what good would it do you for us all to tell you that their opinion and way of living is outdated? Would you then send them all a link to this thread and tell them to cop on?

You can do very little (nothing) about how other people live their lives and their thoughts or opinions. You seem fairly judgemental of them all. Children from different parents is quite common these days. Sometimes a relationship doesn't work out, and thankfully people now don't feel shamed or guilted into staying in unhappy relationships just so as not to offend the neighbours.

If you don't like your in-laws then avoid them.

I have a feeling you have posted numerous threads about them before. Let your husband have his relationship with them. You don't need to be part of it. It would be easier, for everyone, if you avoided being around them. You'd be happier. You can't change them. So you accept them, or avoid them.

LegacyUser

I would say it's not the norm anymore but common enough that most people would probably know people who hold these views.

Personally I would have said something by now seeing as your husband hasn't set them straight!

s7ryf3925pivug

Some do nothing some do loads. Tbh you can tell pretty quickly which of those categories a guy will be in. Women should stop having kids with arseholes.

karen42

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

But, OP, what good would it do you for us all to tell you that their opinion and way of living is outdated? Would you then send them all a link to this thread and tell them to cop on?

You can do very little (nothing) about how other people live their lives and their thoughts or opinions. You seem fairly judgemental of them all. Children from different parents is quite common these days. Sometimes a relationship doesn't work out, and thankfully people now don't feel shamed or guilted into staying in unhappy relationships just so as not to offend the neighbours.

If you don't like your in-laws then avoid them.

I have a feeling you have posted numerous threads about them before. Let your husband have his relationship with them. You don't need to be part of it. It would be easier, for everyone, if you avoided being around them. You'd be happier. You can't change them. So you accept them, or avoid them.

I avoid them for the most part but I can't avoid them forever and there are times when I have to see them. Every time I see them I have to put up with SOMETHING each time. I hate it.

It makes me dread every special occasion and makes me question if I should be in this marriage at all because I married into a family that I don't like. I didn't understand the impact of in-laws or how it can affect a marriage until it was too late. I underestimated the effect.

In general, I don't like people who are sexist. I can't. It's not possible for me.

karen42

bee06 wrote: »

Why doesn’t your husband set them straight?

Regarding your SIL and niece, I grew up in a house where my mom did all the cooking, cleaning, changed every nappy etc etc. She has three daughters who did most defintely not grow up to think we should do the same.

He doesn't think it's sexist that's why. He says that children have a natural bond with their mothers that simply cannot exist with fathers because the mother carried the child in the womb.

I disagree with his assessment. Our daughter is closer to him than she is to me.

lawred2

My Dad would have been like that but I'm not and I don't know of many fathers of my generation that are like that. I wouldn't say that it's the norm especially in two income households.

It's not behaviour I would respect to be honest.

lawred2

karen42 wrote: »

I avoid them for the most part but I can't avoid them forever and there are times when I have to see them. Every time I see them I have to put up with SOMETHING each time. I hate it.

It makes me dread every special occasion and makes me question if I should be in this marriage at all because I married into a family that I don't like. I didn't understand the impact of in-laws or how it can affect a marriage until it was too late. I underestimated the effect.

In general, I don't like people who are sexist. I can't. It's not possible for me.

jesus

your family is the one with your husband and your children...

nthclare

Randall Most Salamander wrote: »

Some do nothing some do loads. Tbh you can tell pretty quickly which of those categories a guy will be in. Women should stop having kids with arseholes.

That's why some only hang around a few year's into marriage realise they married an illusion....
Then they meet another asshole.....and another separation...
Then they think the next asshole will be better than the last asshole...

Assholes only marry assholes...

Thats what happens when you marry a boy instead of a man....

It looks great on the day he's wearing the blue suit and brown shoes....probably away with the faeries on his wedding day thinking tgis is great craic....

While she's dreaming of a family unit, a man who'll love her, bringing up kids and a good man who will embrace family life and love his wife...

Within weeks he thinks he can have it both ways....

Ladies make sure you land yourself a real man and not some jock who's only out for himself.....

Big Bag of Chips

My uncle married a woman that I never, ever saw throughout my entire childhood. She just had nothing to do with his family whatsoever. He came to weddings, occasions, visited at various times, all without her. She had no interest, for whatever reason in having a relationship with any of his side of the family. I have met her a handful of times as an adult (Maybe, twice or 3 times). I'm not sure I'd recognise her if I passed her on the street. I have a great relationship with my uncle and cousins though.

If you want to avoid them, it's possible.

ShiverinEskimo

If we could afford for my wife to pack in her job and be at home raising the spawn she would jump at the chance. With maternity leave meaning women get a full six months off interacting with the baba it will naturally lead to a closer relationship between mother and child. That's not to mention the bonds breastfeeding builds.

She would be quite happy to be the home maker while I provide the financial resources. I'd stick to the heavy work around the house (garden/diy) in between working and she'd happily cover child rearing and household chores.

That scenario is more appealing to more people than some would feel comfortable admitting. The rush away from one-working-parent family dynamic has led to a booming creche industry and working poverty.

Were the situations reversed I'd happily be the home maker but my wife would want it more. If we could somehow get rid of our mortgage we'd opt for that setup in a heartbeat.

karen42

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

If we could afford for my wife to pack in her job and be at home raising the spawn she would jump at the chance. With maternity leave meaning women get a full six months off interacting with the baba it will naturally lead to a closer relationship between mother and child. That's not to mention the bonds breastfeeding builds.

She would be quite happy to be the home maker while I provide the financial resources. I'd stick to the heavy work around the house (garden/diy) in between working and she'd happily cover child rearing and household chores.

That scenario is more appealing to more people than some would feel comfortable admitting. The rush away from one-working-parent family dynamic has led to a booming creche industry and working poverty.

Were the situations reversed I'd happily be the home maker but my wife would want it more. If we could somehow get rid of our mortgage we'd opt for that setup in a heartbeat.

Well... even though I did breastfeed and all she is still much closer to her dad than to me.

I had a very difficult birth and I had injuries from the birth and I had trouble walking for weeks so he did most of the coddling and putting her to sleep. I still think that she would be closer to him eventually though. I don't know he's just great with kids.

homerjay2005

karen42 wrote: »

I avoid them for the most part but I can't avoid them forever and there are times when I have to see them. Every time I see them I have to put up with SOMETHING each time. I hate it.

It makes me dread every special occasion and makes me question if I should be in this marriage at all because I married into a family that I don't like. I didn't understand the impact of in-laws or how it can affect a marriage until it was too late. I underestimated the effect.

In general, I don't like people who are sexist. I can't. It's not possible for me.

im sorry, but you are not really coming across well now with the point in bold, this actually starts to bring other issues to the fore and something tells me there is more at play here that your in laws having old fashioned views about parenting which you should really just ignore - what goes on in your house, is your own business and nobody elses.

stop being so hung up about another woman (your sister in law) being sexist, what ever they do is their own business like yours. when they interfere in your business, just come back with some smart comment like "oh modern times now, we both raise our kids and he is a pretty good dad ill have you know". they wont be long shutting up


read the post above from ShiverinEskimo, its 100% an accurate reflection. my partner too would give up work tomorrow if she could if we could afford it.

I actually know a family where the dad stays at home because she really has a good job and they can afford to live off one wage. unfortunately others cannot afford that luxury and need both.

Turbohymac

Jesus definitely not common down here in cork ..everyone needs a break and my father was exactly like your father in law..worked hard outside the home and always kept food on the table but couldn't boil an egg.. that day is long gone with any of my friends being very hands on indoors. And trying to spend more time with the family..however it's after swinging well past the 180 degree mark when it comes to women doing any outdoor duties..and sometimes I get a rant about not doing my 50% indoors but. There's barely 10% of outdoor work being carried out by other half... jesus get out there and cut the grass..then chop a lash of timber and the van needs an oil change...the outdoor list could go on all day. ..BUT. there's really no excuse for men nowadays not to pull their weight indoors ..tell your other half that he needs to exit the cave now ..its not 1960 anymore...or move him down south here and well give a few lessons on modern living

nthclare

Turbohymac wrote: »

Jesus definitely not common down here in cork ..everyone needs a break and my father was exactly like your father in law..worked hard outside the home and always kept food on the table but couldn't boil an egg.. that day is long gone with any of my friends being very hands on indoors. And trying to spend more time with the family..however it's after swinging well past the 180 degree mark when it comes to women doing any outdoor duties..and sometimes I get a rant about not doing my 50% indoors but. There's barely 10% of outdoor work being carried out by other half... jesus get out there and cut the grass..then chop a lash of timber and the van needs an oil change...the outdoor list could go on all day. ..BUT. there's really no excuse for men nowadays not to pull their weight indoors ..tell your other half that he needs to exit the cave now ..its not 1960 anymore...or move him down south here and well give a few lessons on modern living

Too many softies out there, a woman needs a real man....

I can see why working class and upper class women prefer a real man...

It cracks me up really to be honest, I know women from working class backgrounds and way up the echelons of society I mean like super toffs not your new money shallow types I mean like waaaay up there.

They have their own money, dont need to impress their peers...or put people on pedestals...if they love a man and know he'll be there for her and the family...

He'll love nothing more than to drive an axe down on blocks in the winter to provide heat, walk to the shop in the rain for messages....

They actually go for the alpha male, the rugged lumberjack organic types....silver fox with broad shoulders strong, lived a lot worked hard....has strong hands....can protect his family, provide if society will break down...

Thats what nature intended, nature never forgives...it allows men and women to evolve...and adapt...

I know a lot of women who would love an alpha male, they're sick of the jocks....pissheads and whiners....

Man up guys

woodchuck

OP I think you're being overly sensitive and the following statement is certainly an overreaction!!

It makes me dread every special occasion and makes me question if I should be in this marriage at all because I married into a family that I don't like.

While I agree that their comments are outdated and a little sexist, you need to learn to take it with a pinch of salt. This is a throwback to previous generations where men and women did have different roles in the family. While times have obviously moved on, it's understandable that it hasn't for them because it's how they've lived their whole lives. Perhaps commenting on it helps them validate how their lives have turned out - for all you know they could be jealous of your 'modern' lifestyle and trying to convince themselves of the values of staying in a traditional role!

I'd either ignore these remarks or come back with one of the smart comments suggested above.

bee06

karen42 wrote: »

He doesn't think it's sexist that's why. He says that children have a natural bond with their mothers that simply cannot exist with fathers because the mother carried the child in the womb.

I disagree with his assessment. Our daughter is closer to him than she is to me.

What does a child’s bond with a parent have to do with how household chores are divided?

Look, as long as the two people in the relationship are happy with who does what that’s all that matters. A few people have said their wives would be delighted to be stay at home moms. I personally would crack up, it’s not for me. Each to their own.

meeeeh

karen42 wrote: »

I avoid them for the most part but I can't avoid them forever and there are times when I have to see them. Every time I see them I have to put up with SOMETHING each time. I hate it.

It makes me dread every special occasion and makes me question if I should be in this marriage at all because I married into a family that I don't like. I didn't understand the impact of in-laws or how it can affect a marriage until it was too late. I underestimated the effect.

In general, I don't like people who are sexist. I can't. It's not possible for me.

I think you already had a thread about Christmas dinner with in-laws or something. Do you have any friends in Ireland who you can talk to? It seems to me you are obsessing way too much about this feud you have with in-laws, it's not healthy. They won't change, you don't see them very often and I wonder do you more resent your partner that he still has relationship with them. You are not happy about something but I don't think your in-laws are the actual issue here, it's something else.

LegacyUser

karen42 wrote: »

In general, I don't like people who are sexist. .

OP, i hate to tell you but you are coming across as sexist if anything. you are telling other woman to "not give up on their dreams" for instance and you are scoffing at how your sister in law is raising HER daughter.

you have your views of how a man and woman should behave, it is however different for everybody and its a bit rich to accuse your SIL of sexism when you are doing the same to her in reality.