Is this a common attitude towards fatherhood in Ireland?

meeeeh

karen42 wrote: »

No, my husband doesn't think that what I say is true. He doesn't think she prefers him but she's much more obedient and attentive to him than to me.

Why do you constantly demand comparison? It's between you and his family, you even analyse who your daughter loves more. I was called the worst mother ever by a 5 year old more than once for not agreeing to her demands. She is complete daddy's girl at the moment but last year Santa was bringing daddy a bag of coal because he is naughty. Kids will have different dynamics with their parents, they will push different buttons to get what they want. What does it matter if you love your daughter and she loves you. It very hard to be around someone who constantly compares every action and constantly evaluates affection of those around them.

nikkibikki

karen42 wrote:

My child prefers her dad over me so she acts differently when she's with him or the 3 of us. I don't really enjoy it as much. When she's alone with me and I take her out she kind of has to listen to me and spend time with me.

karen42 wrote:

No, my husband doesn't think that what I say is true. He doesn't think she prefers him but she's much more obedient and attentive to him than to me.

Are you jealous of the bond between your husband and your daughter?

Have you had counselling for your own childhood issues? I think that's where you should start. You need help.

karen42

nikkibikki wrote: »

Are you jealous of the bond between your husband and your daughter?

Have you had counselling for your own childhood issues? I think that's where you should start. You need help.

I'm not really jealous so much as disappointed and threatened.

I mean if we were to split up I'm not confident about the outcome of that for me.

He has threatened me before with a custody battle during an argument etc.

karen42

meeeeh wrote: »

Why do you constantly demand comparison? It's between you and his family, you even analyse who your daughter loves more. I was called the worst mother ever by a 5 year old more than once for not agreeing to her demands. She is complete daddy's girl at the moment but last year Santa was bringing daddy a bag of coal because he is naughty. Kids will have different dynamics with their parents, they will push different buttons to get what they want. What does it matter if you love your daughter and she loves you. It very hard to be around someone who constantly compares every action and constantly evaluates affection of those around them.

I guess because of the dynamics here I'm not confident that things would turn out well for me if we split up. I'm pretty sure she would choose him over me etc.

Also, I'm not confident in where I stand in my own family. Not sure the loyalty is strong enough.

bee06

karen42 wrote: »

No, my husband doesn't think that what I say is true. He doesn't think she prefers him but she's much more obedient and attentive to him than to me.

That doesn’t mean she prefers him! Children are always more obedient for one parent. It’s not a show of preference.

pwurple

What do you think loyalty is? Leaving his family for you over this nothingness? Never disagreeing with you on any point?
Honestly. This sounds like massive offense being taken to the smallest passing bit of conversation. I can't understand the sensitivities and perceived slights myself. Nothing on this thread sounds like anything more serious than banter. Do you have similar lists of enemies at work as well? People who have crossed you in some way?

I'm as feminist as they come, but I am well able to entertain a conversation on it without wanting to do dramatic storm offs into the countryside with just a bunch of yes-men to follow me. You can disagree and still get along you know.

In fact, in respect of him, and who he is, you should be making an effort to get along with his family. We all do that for the most part.

homerjay2005

OP, i dont want to be harsh here but i really think you could be the main issue here and not the "others" as you seem to think they are. you seem to think everybody is against you - even your own child comes in for accusations here somewhat.

you need to sit back, stop thinking the world is against you and focus first and foremost on your family - ie your husband and child. stop focusing on petty arguments about who is saying or doing what. if you dont, you will torment yourself and ultimately destroy what appears to be a very good family that you have.

i wish you the best of luck and hope it works out...if you make the effort and ease off on the paranoia/jealously, it will.

professore

karen42 wrote: »

I'm not really jealous so much as disappointed and threatened.

I mean if we were to split up I'm not confident about the outcome of that for me.

He has threatened me before with a custody battle during an argument etc.

Daughters tend to get on better with their dads. My daughter is 20 and it's only now she's getting on well with her mum, but we have always gotten on. Threatening in a custody battle is a low blow. That's more than just a fight over who does the dishes.

kerryjack

I think the mammy has a lot to do with it, doing everything for there little pride and joy and than he gets married and the poor ould soul can't do anything for himself, its still going on and i know plenty of them. Now there is plenty of women about as well that have high expectations and were spoiled at home and find it hard to cope in real world.

seamus

nikkibikki wrote: »

Have you had counselling for your own childhood issues? I think that's where you should start. You need help.

This, jesus this.

The more you reveal, the more it becomes clear that you're holding your husband and daughter (and his family), to a family standard that's unattainable, and probably changes from year to year.

If your only frame of reference is the terrible family dynamic that you come from, then it seems like that what you envision in your mind as the ideal family is one which is the exact opposite of the one you came from. And when your own family doesn't meet that, something must be wrong - with them. No family is perfect. Just because an upbringing was awful, doesn't mean everything they did was wrong. Likewise, a great upbringing doesn't mean every decision was right.

You do put everything in terms of things done to you, against you. You frame everything from the perspective of how others interact, you never mention how you interact. Which means introspection and self-critique is probably not a strong point for you. Your self-esteem may be low (understandable from your background), so you avoid confronting your own failings at all costs.

Even your last post:

"I'm not really jealous so much as disappointed and threatened. "

Jealous is personal failure. An admission of jealousy means you're showing weakness, and you may be wrong.

Disappointment is not; disappointment means someone else has failed you.

"Threatened" means that someone else is attacking you.

If you were to ask me to list some of the emotions that make up jealousy, "disappointed" and "threatened" would be top of the list.

You are jealous, but you instantly went on the defensive when someone suggested it. And rather than accept, "yeah, maybe I am", you turned it around to try and say, "I'm not weak, I'm under attack".

You need counselling. You need to learn how to be introspective. You need to learn that showing weakness is OK, that self-critique is OK, and admitting when we're wrong is essential to a strong relationship.

A common thread throughout this and the other discussion is emotional coldness. You don't feel as close to anyone as you would like to be. That's not because other people are shying away from you, it's because you're shying away from them, and from yourself.

Idle Passerby

Your a bit all over the place OP. You started by saying the problem was your in-laws old fashioned ideas, even though your husband doesn't ascribe to them. You seem to be taking your in-laws life choices and opinions far too personally.

Then it moved on to your problem being that your daughter prefers your husband. On one hand you worry that if you were to split he would get custody, but on the other hand you want to leave them both and start a new family with someone else? Your flipping between extremes.

I don't think your problem is your husbands ability to parent. Your in laws opinions about who should cook dinner aren't your problem either and their decisions about how they live their own lives are definitely not your problem.

It sounds like you are looking for fault everywhere and treating everything others do and say as a personal injury to you. You expect your husband to play referee between you and the whole world, including your own child. Its not healthy and it doesn't sound rational. I think you should speak to someone and figure out what is really bothering you.

Whispered

OP one of the hardest parts of having a less than ideal childhood is breaking the cycle of dysfunction when you have your own child. You absolutely have a duty to your child now to get help of some sort. Otherwise the cycle continues and in years to come your daughter could well be getting advice on how to deal with HER childhood.

You have an issue with everything. You're considering leaving your husband and child to have another hypothetical child with a hypothetical man. Yet you're banging on about loyalty and your husbands lack of it. There is something disordered in your thinking. The problem is not everyone else. Please allow yourself to consider this and speak to someone.

professore

kerryjack wrote: »

I think the mammy has a lot to do with it, doing everything for there little pride and joy and than he gets married and the poor ould soul can't do anything for himself, its still going on and i know plenty of them. Now there is plenty of women about as well that have high expectations and were spoiled at home and find it hard to cope in real world.

That's true but the OPs husband doesn't seem to be like this. His family are.

rainbowtrout

karen42 wrote: »

I'm not really jealous so much as disappointed and threatened.

I mean if we were to split up I'm not confident about the outcome of that for me.

He has threatened me before with a custody battle during an argument etc.

I don't think the main issue here is your in laws attitudes about the role of women within a marriage/home etc.

You probably need to examine why you view your relationship with your daughter almost as a competition with her father. She gets on well with her father. That's great. In your own words you are disappointed and threatened. You're disappointed that she doesn't love you more? Maybe she has picked up on your attitude to her and therefore it's harder for her to develop the kind of relationship she has with her father with you. Maybe she has picked up on the fact that you don't enjoy doing things as a family. To be honest, saying things like 'I see them every day' as a reason for not doing things as a family is weird. You live in the same house, of course you see them everyday. Nobody would ever go anywhere if they all held that view. People like to go out and do fun things outside the home, to have different experiences from the daily routine of mealtimes, cooking, cleaning etc.



But on the view that your in laws are sexist - maybe they are, but they can choose to live their lives in whatever way they want. Feminism doesn't mean every woman has to suddenly go out and become a mechanic or plumber. Some women like being at home with their children. I don't have any kids, but if i do have some in the future, I won't be staying at home, like you it would drive me cracked. But it's great not to be forced into it.

On the other hand, several of my friends ( we are all teachers) have gone on job share in the last couple of years, and don't really have any intention of going back full time. It's not a short term plan to cope with childcare costs. In fact, a number of them didn't go on job share until the children were about 3 and some were in school. Arguably it would have been of more benefit financially when the children were babies/toddlers and required more hands on care. Their reasons? They like spending time with their children. They want to be hands on with them. They want to interact with them as much as possible and enjoy bringing them to school, football, dance classes etc. Some of them have also said in a 'if we won the lotto fantasy' that if that chance came, they would be happy to give up work, stay at home full time and let their husbands do the earning. It will never be for me, but some women like it and would rather spend their time raising their kids than working in an office, classroom, factory and forking that money out to a creche. It's great to have the choice.

orthsquel

karen42 wrote: »

I guess because of the dynamics here I'm not confident that things would turn out well for me if we split up. I'm pretty sure she would choose him over me etc.

Also, I'm not confident in where I stand in my own family. Not sure the loyalty is strong enough.

I don't think you were much loved in your family or by your mother were you OP? I would guess that whatever little affection your mother showed you, you are showing the same towards your daughter. You come across as a very disinterested parent, who has no wish or desire to be a parent, but who is, nonetheless, a parent, who has no interest in a family outing for a day, and comes across as confused of the suggestion of what would you do something like that for, when you see them everyday.

Your past is a shadow looming over you, the inlaws are nothing but distraction to what the real problems are in your past. No doubt your daughter has picked up on your being completely disengaged as a parent, and emotionally distant, she would then gravitate towards a parent who is open and emotionally engaging. It would be not surprising then if your daughter grew up to feeling unwanted and unloved by her own mother for just merely existing while you simmer in your resentment and jealousy towards her because you are not the priority in your husband's life that you feel you should be, because he can be open and loving towards your daughter......and less so, towards you.

I think you need immediate counselling..... did you have post natal depression? Did you ever get counselling about your own upbringing?
I think you need it urgently, because you are not just further damaging yourself, but your husband and creating the same psychological and emotional damage to your daughter that was done to you. If you had a difficult upbringing, then you need to reach the little girl inside of you and talk to her, listen to her, let her tell her story and let her heal. Only then will you allow yourself to enjoy the relationship, the marriage and the family you have, and the daughter I'm sure deep down you do love, and will show love to.

s7ryf3925pivug

Haven't read all the replies, but the ones I have range from critical to outright mean. There seems to be some ideas that are quite disconnected from anything the OP has actually said in any of her posts.

Completely agree with the notion of your first loyalty being towards your spouse. That is demonstably the situation with me and my wife. We don't alienate each other from our families or friends. Quite the opposite. But we never take **** about the other person. Personally I get angry and verbal far more quickly if something upsets my wife or kid than I ever would about myself. I would feel quite let down and betrayed if my wife were to accept **** talk about me. I would see someone who did this as weak to be blunt.

I work full time. Luckily enough we don't need two incomes and my wife looks after our kid. So she does 100% of housework and caring for our child while I'm at work and I try to make sure I do 50% of the rest of the time. My job can be stressful and I've been getting pissed off with it recently. Nonetheless I see her side of this as being more onerous.

Being primary carer all the time is an unreasonable demand, and would pretty much compel compromises in the quality of that care. It is sexist to dismiss the importance of looking after kids or how hard it is.

ElizaBennett

I agree that your husband should always make you feel he's on your side and he hasn't done that. There doesn't seem to be any closeness between you both and for him to threaten you with a custody battle is, for me, a line in the sand when it comes to the relationship. How do you come back from that sort of threat and remain in love and happy? I question whether you should be in this marriage at all as it's not bringing you (or possibly him) much happiness. But counselling separately and together might help that. How would you characterise the relationship generally? Do you feel loved? Is there any romance?

kunst nugget

ElizaBennett wrote: »

I agree that your husband should always make you feel he's on your side and he hasn't done that. There doesn't seem to be any closeness between you both and for him to threaten you with a custody battle is, for me, a line in the sand when it comes to the relationship. How do you come back from that sort of threat and remain in love and happy? I question whether you should be in this marriage at all as it's not bringing you (or possibly him) much happiness. But counselling separately and together might help that. How would you characterise the relationship generally? Do you feel loved? Is there any romance?

Tbf, if she used the line on here with him that maybe she should go off and have another child with someone else who might be properly loyal to her, I could understand him threatening a custody battle.

The relationship sounds fairly toxic at the moment but she needs to get her issues sorted out first and foremost before there's any hope of making progress with their relationship.

karen42

kunst nugget wrote: »

Tbf, if she used the line on here with him that maybe she should go off and have another child with someone else who might be properly loyal to her, I could understand him threatening a custody battle.

The relationship sounds fairly toxic at the moment but she needs to get her issues sorted out first and foremost before there's any hope of making progress with their relationship.

Again, he's the one who does this when we argue. I don't. Stop assuming that I'm the only one who has a problem just because I don't like sexist people. If I bring up an issue with him and the argument escalates then he threatens me with divorce or child custody. There was a time when we broke up for a week and he said he won't be moving out of the house. He said I'd have to leave and the child will be staying with him.

karen42

orthsquel wrote: »

I don't think you were much loved in your family or by your mother were you OP? I would guess that whatever little affection your mother showed you, you are showing the same towards your daughter. You come across as a very disinterested parent, who has no wish or desire to be a parent, but who is, nonetheless, a parent, who has no interest in a family outing for a day, and comes across as confused of the suggestion of what would you do something like that for, when you see them everyday.

Your past is a shadow looming over you, the inlaws are nothing but distraction to what the real problems are in your past. No doubt your daughter has picked up on your being completely disengaged as a parent, and emotionally distant, she would then gravitate towards a parent who is open and emotionally engaging. It would be not surprising then if your daughter grew up to feeling unwanted and unloved by her own mother for just merely existing while you simmer in your resentment and jealousy towards her because you are not the priority in your husband's life that you feel you should be, because he can be open and loving towards your daughter......and less so, towards you.

I think you need immediate counselling..... did you have post natal depression? Did you ever get counselling about your own upbringing?
I think you need it urgently, because you are not just further damaging yourself, but your husband and creating the same psychological and emotional damage to your daughter that was done to you. If you had a difficult upbringing, then you need to reach the little girl inside of you and talk to her, listen to her, let her tell her story and let her heal. Only then will you allow yourself to enjoy the relationship, the marriage and the family you have, and the daughter I'm sure deep down you do love, and will show love to.

I'm not disinterested in being a parent. I just hate the stereotype that just because I'm female that it somehow should come naturally to me over a man or that certain traits are intrinsically female or male when they are not.

It's just my efforts never seem to change the dynamic. I do take her out, spend time with her etc. She just prefers dad. That's all.

I like going out with her, it's just when my husband and I go out there is nothing for us to talk about because we see each other all the time. We also don't agree on a number of topics so I can't discuss them without getting into an argument with him. It's not really a fun and exciting relationship. He's also stingy when it comes to affection.

karen42

seamus wrote: »

This, jesus this.

The more you reveal, the more it becomes clear that you're holding your husband and daughter (and his family), to a family standard that's unattainable, and probably changes from year to year.

If your only frame of reference is the terrible family dynamic that you come from, then it seems like that what you envision in your mind as the ideal family is one which is the exact opposite of the one you came from. And when your own family doesn't meet that, something must be wrong - with them. No family is perfect. Just because an upbringing was awful, doesn't mean everything they did was wrong. Likewise, a great upbringing doesn't mean every decision was right.

You do put everything in terms of things done to you, against you. You frame everything from the perspective of how others interact, you never mention how you interact. Which means introspection and self-critique is probably not a strong point for you. Your self-esteem may be low (understandable from your background), so you avoid confronting your own failings at all costs.

Even your last post:

"I'm not really jealous so much as disappointed and threatened. "

Jealous is personal failure. An admission of jealousy means you're showing weakness, and you may be wrong.

Disappointment is not; disappointment means someone else has failed you.

"Threatened" means that someone else is attacking you.

If you were to ask me to list some of the emotions that make up jealousy, "disappointed" and "threatened" would be top of the list.

You are jealous, but you instantly went on the defensive when someone suggested it. And rather than accept, "yeah, maybe I am", you turned it around to try and say, "I'm not weak, I'm under attack".

You need counselling. You need to learn how to be introspective. You need to learn that showing weakness is OK, that self-critique is OK, and admitting when we're wrong is essential to a strong relationship.

A common thread throughout this and the other discussion is emotional coldness. You don't feel as close to anyone as you would like to be. That's not because other people are shying away from you, it's because you're shying away from them, and from yourself.

You would feel threatened by someone who threatens divorce everytime you get into an argument.

karen42

professore wrote: »

That's true but the OPs husband doesn't seem to be like this. His family are.

He actually agrees with his family but doesn't put it into practice. He says he agrees with them but goes and does something different.

karen42

pwurple wrote: »

What do you think loyalty is? Leaving his family for you over this nothingness? Never disagreeing with you on any point?
Honestly. This sounds like massive offense being taken to the smallest passing bit of conversation. I can't understand the sensitivities and perceived slights myself. Nothing on this thread sounds like anything more serious than banter. Do you have similar lists of enemies at work as well? People who have crossed you in some way?

I'm as feminist as they come, but I am well able to entertain a conversation on it without wanting to do dramatic storm offs into the countryside with just a bunch of yes-men to follow me. You can disagree and still get along you know.

In fact, in respect of him, and who he is, you should be making an effort to get along with his family. We all do that for the most part.

Loyalty means taking a stand with me, appreciating my opinions and point of view, and defending it with me to them. Loyalty means standing up for me no matter what. I don't see that in my husband and I don't trust that he would have unwavering loyalty to me.

'passing conversation' or 'banter' well I don't find it enjoyable or fun. I actually don't find my in-laws to be enjoyable people. I don't enjoy ANY of the conversations they have. I have nothing in common with them and they are not people that I would choose to associate with if it were not for this marriage. I dread having to spend any time with them. No, I don't want to put any effort into that thanks. They never ask me any questions about myself or my experiences. They put zero effort into me either. This is not a family that I'm happy to be married into - 2 drug addicts, a shallow unhinged SIL, a nasty FIL. No.

rainbowtrout

Your problem is with your husband, not your in laws. There shouldn't be threats of divorce every time you have an argument. You need to sort out your relationship, forget about your in laws.

rainbowtrout

karen42 wrote: »

I like going out with her, it's just when my husband and I go out there is nothing for us to talk about because we see each other all the time. We also don't agree on a number of topics so I can't discuss them without getting into an argument with him. It's not really a fun and exciting relationship. He's also stingy when it comes to affection.

Most husbands and wives see each other all the time and still find stuff to talk about.

Why did you marry this man? You don't have anything to talk about by your own admission, you can't have reasonable arguments without threats of divorce, and you don't seem to agree on fundamental issues.

karen42

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Most husbands and wives see each other all the time and still find stuff to talk about.

Why did you marry this man? You don't have anything to talk about by your own admission, you can't have reasonable arguments without threats of divorce, and you don't seem to agree on fundamental issues.

Because things changed after we had a child and I just wasn't aware of how big of an impact in-laws could have on a marriage. My mother never married so she wouldn't know either.

After we had a child he was less affectionate, and less interested in marriage and tires easily. He really changed after the child.

Big Bag of Chips

karen42 wrote: »

'passing conversation' or 'banter' well I don't find it enjoyable or fun. I actually don't find my in-laws to be enjoyable people. I don't enjoy ANY of the conversations they have. I have nothing in common with them and they are not people that I would choose to associate with if it were not for this marriage. I dread having to spend any time with them. This is not a family that I'm happy to be married into - 2 drug addicts, a shallow unhinged SIL, a nasty FIL. No.

I could have written this about my in-laws, apart from a minor change of 1 drug addict and the rest of the family functioning alcoholics. I am not friends with any of them. They are not the type of people I would know, let alone socialise with if it wasn't for my husband. I am not I'm contact with any of them, and I see them very very rarely.. "big" birthdays maybe every few years.

You don't like your husband, you don't like your in-laws. Maybe your husband is on to something and separating is inevitable for you. You don't seem at all happy in this marriage and it also also seems like there are fundamental differences between you and your husband that are never going to be resolved. Your husband is unlikely to get 100% custody of your daughter. It would be incredibly rare, and he would have to prove that you are totally unfit as a parent. But, that doesn't mean that things wouldn't get ugly in a separation. Things already get ugly as it is. Your in-laws are only a side issue here. Your relationship with your husband isn't good. And neither of you seem to have the skill or inclination to want to fix that.

I don't really know what advice people can offer you. It takes 2 to make a marriage work.

karen42

homerjay2005 wrote: »

OP, i dont want to be harsh here but i really think you could be the main issue here and not the "others" as you seem to think they are. you seem to think everybody is against you - even your own child comes in for accusations here somewhat.

you need to sit back, stop thinking the world is against you and focus first and foremost on your family - ie your husband and child. stop focusing on petty arguments about who is saying or doing what. if you dont, you will torment yourself and ultimately destroy what appears to be a very good family that you have.

i wish you the best of luck and hope it works out...if you make the effort and ease off on the paranoia/jealously, it will.

You are probably right but I don't know how wonderful this family is if my needs and wants are never considered. That's the problem. I don't want sexist in-laws and I want a husband who would immediately shut them down. Not sure exactly what this family does for me.

Dial Hard

Honestly, OP, given your last few posts I have absolutely no idea why you're still with this man. You don't seem to particularly even like him, let alone love him.

Big Bag of Chips

karen42 wrote: »

I don't want sexist in-laws and I want a husband who would immediately shut them down.

Well that's not what you have, and you're not likely to ever have it in this particular set up.

So if you want something different, you are going to have to find something different. But be careful of wanting to find a husband who will immediately, and always go against his family for you. People have history, and have relationships that you won't be part of. That will always be the case.