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The Curse of Defective Concrete (Mica, Pyrrhotite, etc.) in Donegal homes - Read Mod warning Post 1
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Whilst I'm not doubting there are numerous un licenced quarries around the country, I think you paint an overly grim picture well at least I hope things not as bad as you portray
Roisin Shortall more or less made such an accusation about the quarries of Ireland last night on the tv3 debate show.0 -
Roisin Shortall more or less made such an accusation about the quarries of Ireland last night on the tv3 debate show.
Yes, I heard that but by no means the only politician to make such accusations over the years, albeit in differing contexts if you get my meaningIs maith an scáthán súil charad.
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Nope! Im not having that be said about the good people of Donegal. Warning given.
He mentioned nothing about Donegal people, and he's 100% right about what he said.
Many of these houses have been standing over a decade? The cost to knock, rebuild and sign off on them will have gone up. And you absolutely, 100% definitely will have the lads doing the jobs, realising it's a guaranteed money contract, racking the price up (happens everywhere all the time).
"the good people of donegal" :rolleyes: Not like they'd sell shoddy building materials to their neighbours.0 -
So the point is to go through the process, potentially taking years, to go after a company/companies that plainly don't have the assets to resolve the issues should the be found negligent.
Seems like a pointless endeavour to me........
By all accounts, learn from the situation, make sure it doesn't happen again, fine/punish those that broke the law (if that is found) but that doesn't resolve the issues for those that are currently in bother with their buildings.
The point is that court is the first remedy and I’m not seeing why the homeowners are not using it. The case against the quarry is not one of negligence or lawbreaking, it’s civil one of contract - they sold blocks that were not fit for purpose. There is a fast-track system for access to the High Court, why has it not been used?0 -
The point is that court is the first remedy and I’m not seeing why the homeowners are not using it. The case against the quarry is not one of negligence or lawbreaking, it’s civil one of contract - they sold blocks that were not fit for purpose. There is a fast-track system for access to the High Court, why has it not been used?
TBH, I amn't fully familiar with the ins and out - and as such maybe it has been used/looked into.
However, again, from a civil contract perspective it is a completely pointless exercise as anyone with an ounce of common sense would tell you.0 -
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TBH, I amn't fully familiar with the ins and out - and as such maybe it has been used/looked into.
However, again, from a civil contract perspective it is a completely pointless exercise as anyone with an ounce of common sense would tell you.
The thousands of people who take legal action to get redress for civil wrongs must have no common sense then.0 -
SF are the only alternative if your not voting FF/FG for the next GE. That’s the choice right there. So that’s why I mentioned them.
I’ve been very consistent in my posts - Some people seem to think that I’m upsetting folk with posts when trying to be realistic.
At this moment in time there are two maybe even three groups - some meeting with Taoiseach and sending submissions to the housing minister. What happens if the minister agrees to one of these submissions but 20% of those protesting don’t think it does fair enough - what then? Is there a vote between these group members? All I’m hearing is that it’s 100% and nothing less.
Any person who takes a step back will realise that the chances of getting 100% redress that covers all costs is very very slim without tax increases etc. But yet it’s shouted from the roof tops with threats being made to block the M50 and the ports etc. That could turn very ugly very quickley as seen in Dublin in recent protests.
Maybe I’ll stop posting here and hopefully you get what you want but be prepared not to.
Are they? Seems to me there were quite a few Independents and smaller parties on the voting card at the last election...
As to what proportion of people might accept less than 100% redress, I suggest you ask the action groups. I've already told you I'm neither affected by mica, nor a member of any action group - so why do you keep asking me ridiculous questions?listermint wrote: »Once again this has been highlighted time and time again. There's plenty of pyrite issues and literal hazardous fire issues in apartments and houses all over the east coast and not a peep of redress 90% or otherwise.
Suffice to say where does redress from state coffers stop ? Where is the line ? If the result of this was harsh tough legislation to prevent and or go after companies for poor testing of their products and the homeowners got 80% redress would that be ok ? There's so many conflicting arguments of what people want from this that its hard to know. I don't think anyone really thinks 100% costs should be payed by the state myself included. And seemingly if you point that out you are called a troll.
What would actually make people happy here . What is the real end goal of satisfaction?
Why is it that these issues rarely happen in other European Countries?
Because there is adequate regulation and legislation to protect the consumer!
What would make me, personally, happy, is peoples homes restored to what they should have been, and proper enforceable regulation and legislation for the future.
Ideally, I'd also like to see the block manufacturers held responsible for their actions - I'd like to see insurance properly regulated, too - but I wont hold my breath while I'm waiting...Deleted User wrote: »To be fair, I can understand the homeowners wanting 100%. Of course they would want that. But were there not issues with apartments in Dublin not too long ago, that meant they didn't comply with fire safety regs? and people living in the apartments had to pool money together to get it sorted?
It seems unusual to me that the govt. are being so easily pushed into a corner on this. Sets a precedent of "just protest and you'll get what you want".
At the same time, i can also see that nobody could be held responsible, either. If there is a chap in Donegal that is a qualified Mica-checker for blocks supplied to every house, and he has given them all the green light, even though he could be in the wrong entirely, he's not going to have insurance that'll cover €1bn worth of rebuilding. So there's really no avenue to go in that regard.
Some of these people have been fighting for redress for years....
The Government didn't want to know - until there were so many people affected that they couldn't ignore it any longerBeechwoodspark wrote: »Can someone clearly explain why joe taxpayer is on the hook to pay for the reimbursement???
Lack of regulation, lack of enforcement, lack of adequate consumer protection.Frozen Veg wrote: »Company supplied defective products. Bill should be with their insurance company. I'm sure the issues were reported within ten years of build.
Some people have spent between 50 and 60 thousand trying to get redress. They got nowhere....Feel sorry for them, but when is this “put your hand out to the government” aka screw the tax payer going to end????? No way there should be government redress schemes for faulty products produced by private companies.
I’m fed up of the tax payer getting lumped with paying for all sorts of things, this is just another joke, there’ll be more than block crumbling to nothing if they don’t stop haemorrhaging money for everything.
Maybe when the Government ensure adequate levels of consumer protection. After all, other Countries seem to manage it - so, why don't we?0 -
The point is that court is the first remedy and I’m not seeing why the homeowners are not using it. The case against the quarry is not one of negligence or lawbreaking, it’s civil one of contract - they sold blocks that were not fit for purpose. There is a fast-track system for access to the High Court, why has it not been used?
People have tried, and lost 50k to 60k pursing that avenue...
How many people do you know with that kind of spare change?0 -
See yaDeleted User wrote: »He mentioned nothing about Donegal people, and he's 100% right about what he said.
Many of these houses have been standing over a decade? The cost to knock, rebuild and sign off on them will have gone up. And you absolutely, 100% definitely will have the lads doing the jobs, realising it's a guaranteed money contract, racking the price up (happens everywhere all the time).
"the good people of donegal" :rolleyes: Not like they'd sell shoddy building materials to their neighbours.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »People have tried, and lost 50k to 60k pursing that avenue...
How many people do you know with that kind of spare change?
You’re the first person to say it has been tried. That’s all I have been asking. Have you any url to a high court decision where a Donegal mica claimant failed?0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »He mentioned nothing about Donegal people, and he's 100% right about what he said.
Many of these houses have been standing over a decade? The cost to knock, rebuild and sign off on them will have gone up. And you absolutely, 100% definitely will have the lads doing the jobs, realising it's a guaranteed money contract, racking the price up (happens everywhere all the time).
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Does it happen everywhere all the time though?
You should have a look at the majority of govt tendered projects - most come onstream at or under budget. Unfortunately, meeting budget targets is not newsworthy, so the only things you'll see reported on are the waste and cost overruns such as the childrens hospital.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Are they? Seems to me there were quite a few Independents and smaller parties on the voting card at the last election...
As to what proportion of people might accept less than 100% redress, I suggest you ask the action groups. I've already told you I'm neither affected by mica, nor a member of any action group - so why do you keep asking me ridiculous questions?
Why is it that these issues rarely happen in other European Countries?
Because there is adequate regulation and legislation to protect the consumer!
What would make me, personally, happy, is peoples homes restored to what they should have been, and proper enforceable regulation and legislation for the future.
Ideally, I'd also like to see the block manufacturers held responsible for their actions - I'd like to see insurance properly regulated, too - but I wont hold my breath while I'm waiting...
Some of these people have been fighting for redress for years....
The Government didn't want to know - until there were so many people affected that they couldn't ignore it any longer
Lack of regulation, lack of enforcement, lack of adequate consumer protection.
Some people have spent between 50 and 60 thousand trying to get redress. They got nowhere....
Maybe when the Government ensure adequate levels of consumer protection. After all, other Countries seem to manage it - so, why don't we?
An entire tower block burned down in London killing over 70 people with numerous other examples of shoddy work. Nothing has been done to date about it
So how other countries are do awesome is beyond me..0 -
listermint wrote: »An entire tower block burned down in London killing over 70 people with numerous other examples of shoddy work. Nothing has been done to date about it
So how other countries are do awesome is beyond me..
The UK are not European or in the EU0 -
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The thousands of people who take legal action to get redress for civil wrongs must have no common sense then.
Every case is different, but when there are literally thousands of people looking to take cases for literally hundreds of thousands in damages against a company (and a small company at that) - there's no winners apart from perhaps the legal profession.
Why does this have to be pointed out to you?0 -
Every case is different, but when there are literally thousands of people looking to take cases for literally hundreds of thousands in damages against a company (and a small company at that) - there's no winners apart from perhaps the legal profession.
Why does this have to be pointed out to you?
You’ve said that the legal avenue has been tried without success. I’ve asked you for a link to any such case in the High Court and you haven’t yet posted one. I can find no Donegal mica case in the High Court records on line. I did however find this one where a building contractor succeeded against a supplier of stone with pyrites in it. If the thousands of people who marched in Dublin put €50 each into one extreme case they would prove their point, instead of threatening to illegally block the M50 etc which won’t win them any friends, to say the least.0 -
You’ve said that the legal avenue has been tried without success. I’ve asked you for a link to any such case in the High Court and you haven’t yet posted one. I can find no Donegal mica case in the High Court records on line. I did however find this one where a building contractor succeeded against a supplier of stone with pyrites in it. If the thousands of people who marched in Dublin put €50 each into one extreme case they would prove their point, instead of threatening to illegally block the M50 etc which won’t win them any friends, to say the least.
I am not sure whether the legal avenue has been tried - I suspect a few people may have looked into it and realised it wasn't a feasible option.
How obvious does obvious have to be for you to get it?
What is the ultimate point of any legal route in this instance?
Do you think the companies involved have the assets to pay for any redress?0 -
Does it happen everywhere all the time though?
You should have a look at the majority of govt tendered projects - most come onstream at or under budget. Unfortunately, meeting budget targets is not newsworthy, so the only things you'll see reported on are the waste and cost overruns such as the childrens hospital.
I would love to see where you get the majority from?? Hospital, schools, roads all over budget and often delayed.
In 2019 35 out of 38 projects went over budget.
Here's an example of a few:
Phase one redevelopment of St Luke's Hospital, Kilkenny - including a new emergency department - increase of 56pc (€7.3m)
Replacement of acute mental health unit at University Hospital Galway, an increase of 16pc (€2.5m)
Clonburris post-primary school, Lucan, Dublin, an increase of 22pc (€2.8m)
Cluain Lir St Mary's Mullingar 100-bed Community Nursing Unit, an increase of 27pc (€3.1m)
Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, Drogheda, phase two construction of ward block, rooms and theatre department, an increase of 7pc (€1.4m)
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/clear-pattern-of-cost-overruns-in-capital-projects-as-35-out-of-38-go-over-budget-37903579.html
Then look at education:
The construction of 10 buildings in third-level colleges around the country ran to €350m - some €67m over budget.
The Trinity Biomedical Sciences Institute building cost €91.6m - some €16.7m over-budget.
Three of the 10 buildings examined are at NUIG, with a bundle of research buildings coming in at €60m - some €15.7m over-budget and 45 months over deadline.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30927513.html
The list is endless when it comes big money projects going over budget and often delayed. Work on any mica issue will be the same if the homeowners don't take some of the pain and/or there is no cap on it.0 -
I am not sure whether the legal avenue has been tried - I suspect a few people may have looked into it and realised it wasn't a feasible option.
How obvious does obvious have to be for you to get it?
What is the ultimate point of any legal route in this instance?
Do you think the companies involved have the assets to pay for any redress?
Some claim that the directors of this companies knew about the issue but didn't act on it. If this was true, and those claiming had proof - then that's a criminal offence - should that not be a reason to go to court.
Secondly, other quarry owner/suppliers might think twice about any potential mica issues, if they see criminal investigation occurring, Insurance companies would start taking a closer look at what's happening and may increase their premiums on quarries, or remove cover if they believe that they are open to claims.
Perhaps if someone who notice this problem 15 years ago took the right action, then hundreds of others who bought/built houses over the last 5 years wouldn't have bought them knowing they were built from a certain quarry.
It's actually something that i still can't understand, why so many built/bought houses knowing that a certain quarry/supplier was involved, and there supposedly these known problems - all in the same area of Donegal - it's not as if it's the 1960's and there are no phones. People must have known there was a potential risk?????0 -
I am not talking specificilly about the issues you raise and I don't think the poster I am discussing it with is either.Some claim that the directors of this companies knew about the issue but didn't act on it. If this was true, and those claiming had proof - then that's a criminal offence - should that not be a reason to go to court.
Secondly, other quarry owner/suppliers might think twice about any potential mica issues, if they see criminal investigation occurring, Insurance companies would start taking a closer look at what's happening and may increase their premiums on quarries, or remove cover if they believe that they are open to claims.
Perhaps if someone who notice this problem 15 years ago took the right action, then hundreds of others who bought/built houses over the last 5 years wouldn't have bought them knowing they were built from a certain quarry.
It's actually something that i still can't understand, why so many built/bought houses knowing that a certain quarry/supplier was involved, and there supposedly these known problems - all in the same area of Donegal - it's not as if it's the 1960's and there are no phones. People must have known there was a potential risk?????
If people did what they were supposed to do, we wouldn't be here now and not just the owners.0 -
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You’re the first person to say it has been tried. That’s all I have been asking. Have you any url to a high court decision where a Donegal mica claimant failed?
Sorry, I don't have an url. I don't have access to details of the cases. I do know the legal avenue has been pursued by some people, without success afaik.0 -
listermint wrote: »An entire tower block burned down in London killing over 70 people with numerous other examples of shoddy work. Nothing has been done to date about it
So how other countries are do awesome is beyond me..
Link?
Even if your statement was correct (I think you'll find you're wrong) - that is one example.
Off the top of my head.
Cervical check.
Hepatitis C
Banking scandal
Pyrite
Mica
More pyrite....
They've all got one thing in common.
Little to no accountability for those who should have been held responsible...
At this point, I personally don't believe in that level of coincidence...
I can understand that some taxpayers resent having to pay for repeated failures.
What I don't understand is why Government and legislative bodies, as well as any corporate entities who fail to apply regulations, are not being held to account - and instead some people are engaged in victim blaming...0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Are they? Seems to me there were quite a few Independents and smaller parties on the voting card at the last election..
You know right well i mean for government - do you think that the next government is going to be made up of all independents and smaller parties? Whose being ridiculous now...As to what proportion of people might accept less than 100% redress, I suggest you ask the action groups. I've already told you I'm neither affected by mica, nor a member of any action group - so why do you keep asking me ridiculous questions?
So, it's ridiculous for me to ask you - even though you don't think it's ridiculous that the state is being asked to potential write a blank cheque to fix the problem, without a cap. The action groups are very clear - they want everything paid for and nothing less.Why is it that these issues rarely happen in other European Countries?
Because there is adequate regulation and legislation to protect the consumer!
Really?
We've had Germany cover up with a contaminated meat scandal,
J&J's baby powder asbestos cover up,
VW emission scandal,
There was a horse meat scandal in Europe a few years back.
Let's not forget the Grenfell tower fire disaster.
These things happen in other countries, it's not just Ireland. But for some reason Ireland is the only country where the government are left to pay out....
I've put a question out 3/4 times now and is being dodged by everyone - if this was a multi billion euro Investment Fund coming to the government and stating that their apartments had mica, would the Irish People be happy to give them a blank cheque to fix the problem?? What's your view on that?0 -
We've had Germany cover up with a contaminated meat scandal,
J&J's baby powder asbestos cover up,
VW emission scandal,
There was a horse meat scandal in Europe a few years back.
Let's not forget the Grenfell tower fire disaster.
These things happen in other countries, it's not just Ireland. But for some reason Ireland is the only country where the government are left to pay out....
It's almost as if other countries enforce the regulations so that the guilty parties pay :pac:
Whereas here a lack of regulation (by the Irish govt) have led us to a situation where there is no other option but for the government to pay.0 -
Whilst I'm not doubting there are numerous un licenced quarries around the country, I think you paint an overly grim picture well at least I hope things not as bad as you portray
here is a link where the councilors dont seem to want to investigate quarries in laois, i wonder why
i heard on the grapevine that some quarries there are operating with no permission and
are supplying material for large government developments in Dublin.
https://www.leinsterexpress.ie/news/local-news/640110/request-for-audit-into-laois-quarries-unsupported-by-councillors.html0 -
It's almost as if other countries enforce the regulations so that the guilty parties pay :pac:
Whereas here a lack of regulation (by the Irish govt) have led us to a situation where there is no other option but for the government to pay.
But if they enforce regulations in the first place, those incidents would never have happened :pac:
One last thing let's say the government offer x, who decides if this is acceptable by the Mica group, do they have a vote on it?0 -
[/QUOTE]
You know right well i mean for government - do you think that the next government is going to be made up of all independents and smaller parties? Whose being ridiculous now...[/QUOTE]
And yet, smaller parties have been part of power sharing Governments for years.. Ridiculous, you say?
Feel free to start a thread somewhere to discuss it.
[/QUOTE]
So, it's ridiculous for me to ask you - even though you don't think it's ridiculous that the state is being asked to potential write a blank cheque to fix the problem, without a cap. The action groups are very clear - they want everything paid for and nothing less. [/QUOTE]
It's about as ridiculous as it would be if I were to ask you the same question - except I have better sense than to demand answers from people who have no involvement with the whole Mica debacle, and who have made that fact eminently clear. Those affected have an action group. They have spokespersons. I'm not one of them. Why do you find that so difficult to understand?
[/QUOTE]
Really?
We've had Germany cover up with a contaminated meat scandal,
J&J's baby powder asbestos cover up,
VW emission scandal,
There was a horse meat scandal in Europe a few years back.
Let's not forget the Grenfell tower fire disaster.
These things happen in other countries, it's not just Ireland. But for some reason Ireland is the only country where the government are left to pay out....
I've put a question out 3/4 times now and is being dodged by everyone - if this was a multi billion euro Investment Fund coming to the government and stating that their apartments had mica, would the Irish People be happy to give them a blank cheque to fix the problem?? What's your view on that?[/QUOTE]
You do realise that Johnson and Johnson have a strong Irish presence? Though they are an American Company.
Grenfell is an interesting choice on your part, since the UK Government did provide the Council with money to rebuild after the fire...
As to the rest - a couple of instances over two continents - and then there's tiny little Ireland....
If you're happy with the history of regulatory performance in Ireland, or find it comparable to other Countries, then I don't see what you have to complain about.
If you're not - then I suggest you might consider it would be more effective to campaign to fix the regulatory/legislative issues than to begrudge people who only want what they paid for - a home...0 -
here is a link where the councilors dont seem to want to investigate quarries in laois, i wonder why
i heard on the grapevine that some quarries there are operating with no permission and
are supplying material for large government developments in Dublin.
https://www.leinsterexpress.ie/news/local-news/640110/request-for-audit-into-laois-quarries-unsupported-by-councillors.html
What's interesting about the article is that it was a FG Councillor that wanted an investigation and needed the backing of just one more Councillor but not offered - not even the SF Councillors or anyone other non government party councillor... wonder why that is0 -
But if they enforce regulations in the first place, those incidents would never have happened :pac:
One last thing let's say the government offer x, who decides if this is acceptable by the Mica group, do they have a vote on it?
Agreed - whereas those failures on the continent were the result of 1 failure to regulate, the MICA issue we see in Ireland is the result of 2 compounded failures to regulate.
Failure to regulate the quarry/blocks
And failure to regulate the company that should have been trading with insurance so that should something go wrong, they could pay out.
its a double whammy for Ireland Inc.0 -
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What's interesting about the article is that it was a FG Councillor that wanted an investigation and needed the backing of just one more Councillor but not offered - not even the SF Councillors or anyone other non government party councillor... wonder why that is
It's disappointing - but is anyone really surprised?
I think they call it "light touch regulation".0
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