The Curse of Defective Concrete (Mica, Pyrrhotite, etc.) in Donegal homes - Read Mod warning Post 1

DrPhilG

Feck me, the amount of baiting, jabbing and victim blaming that some have done on this thread, and Cee-Jay-Cee is the one to get banned?

Cee-Jay-Cee

DrPhilG wrote: »

Feck me, the amount of baiting, jabbing and victim blaming that some have done on this thread, and Cee-Jay-Cee is the one to get banned?

I haven't been banned...yet.

But yes you are right, it started with one person and when they got a holiday for a week a few others appeared who continued in a similar vein, its like they were recruited as they all had the exact same line of thought. Maybe they're all the same person posting from different accounts???

I just find it strange how people are so insistent that families pay for this themselves. The country has spent €9billion on the pandemic which we will have to pay for. I worked every day throughout it, no working from home or PUP and I accept that my taxes will have to help repay it. These families took out mortgages to build their homes, VAT was payable on all the materials used to build, workers paid tax on their wages etc the government and banks have profited hugely from each one of those houses built and its only fair that they now give back to the people.

They're estimating that the MICA crisis could cost over €2 billion however that will be over the next 5-10years and not a one off payment this or next year. I have no issue that my tax will also go towards repaying this.

I think this thread has somehow just attracted a number of mean spirited begrudgers who somehow think that if this never happened and that the government weren't going to spend €2billion or whatever it costs, that they would somehow be better off and happier in their lives. :rolleyes:

jj880

DrPhilG wrote: »

Feck me, the amount of baiting, jabbing and victim blaming that some have done on this thread, and Cee-Jay-Cee is the one to get banned?

I thought it was just a warning? Is there a list of bans? Edit: just seeing previous post now.

Ive already been warned for saying what I think about the baiting in this thread so not gona comment on it again.

MrMusician18

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

I haven't been banned...yet.

But yes you are right, it started with one person and when they got a holiday for a week a few others appeared who continued in a similar vein, its like they were recruited as they all had the exact same line of thought. Maybe they're all the same person posting from different accounts???

I just find it strange how people are so insistent that families pay for this themselves. The country has spent €9billion on the pandemic which we will have to pay for. I worked every day throughout it, no working from home or PUP and I accept that my taxes will have to help repay it. These families took out mortgages to build their homes, VAT was payable on all the materials used to build, workers paid tax on their wages etc the government and banks have profited hugely from each one of those houses built and its only fair that they now give back to the people.

They're estimating that the MICA crisis could cost over €2 billion however that will be over the next 5-10years and not a one off payment this or next year. I have no issue that my tax will also go towards repaying this.

I think this thread has somehow just attracted a number of mean spirited begrudgers who somehow think that if this never happened and that the government weren't going to spend €2billion or whatever it costs, that they would somehow be better off and happier in their lives. :rolleyes:

What's this meant to mean? I presume that this is directed at me? Well if I had an army of other accounts is not likely is seek to get my ban reversed (which it was btw). I have one account and I don't have another or coordinate with anyone else.

The real problem is that you have local and national media blowing smoke up the protestors holes, painting a picture of near universal support for their demands. The reality isn't like this at all and is illustrated by reasoned opposition here to the presented narrative.

Cee-Jay-Cee

MrMusician18 wrote: »

What's this meant to mean? I presume that this is directed at me? Well if I had an army of other accounts is not likely is seek to get my ban reversed (which it was btw). I have one account and I don't have another or coordinate with anyone else.

The real problem is that you have local and national media blowing smoke up the protestors holes, painting a picture of near universal support for their demands. The reality isn't like this at all and is illustrated by reasoned opposition here to the presented narrative.

Its my opinion. You may not agree with it but that's for you to resolve and not for me to explain.

MrMusician18

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Its my opinion. You may not agree with it but that's for you to resolve and not for me to explain.

You can have an opinion that I'm a mean spirited begrudger and that's fine with me. It's wrong, and my posts show that, but you're entitled to believe whatever you want.

What I won't let stand though is an veiled accusation that I'm either directing or controlling several accounts. Of course you post this without a shred of evidence (naturally because it isn't true). The real issue is your lack of ability to countenance that you know not everyone is thrilled about having to pay to resolve an issue the State was not the cause of. And on top of that, for the protestors to turn their nose up at this generous help and then to not ask, but demand more as if the rest of us owed it to them is of course going to annoy a lot of people.

muffler

Guys, play nice. I don't want to see posts that are sailing close to attacking other posters. We're all adults here.


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jj880

MrMusician18 wrote: »

You can have an opinion that I'm a mean spirited begrudger and that's fine with me. It's wrong, and my posts show that, but you're entitled to believe whatever you want.

What I won't let stand though is an veiled accusation that I'm either directing or controlling several accounts. Of course you post this without a shred of evidence (naturally because it isn't true). The real issue is your lack of ability to countenance that you know not everyone is thrilled about having to pay to resolve an issue the State was not the cause of. And on top of that, for the protestors to turn their nose up at this generous help and then to not ask, but demand more as if the rest of us owed it to them is of course going to annoy a lot of people.

Keep at it - I've lost count of how many different ways you've stated homeowners are asking for a "blank cheque".

There are massive government failings here so they should help families now and afterwards go after whoever they need to. You can deflect from this all you want but at least stop trying to make out people are protesting for the craic. As if they are in Dublin asking for extra pocket money.

I get it - not everyone is thrilled with the government having to pay for this. But even after all the posts and explanations in this thread you still imply protesters could easily settle for the current scheme. They simply can't.

Penfailed

MrMusician18 wrote: »

And on top of that, for the protestors to turn their nose up at this generous help and then to not ask, but demand more as if the rest of us owed it to them is of course going to annoy a lot of people.

I've pointed this out to you previously but you ignored it - it's not generous if people can't even afford to get the initial testing done to get onto the scheme. It's not fit for purpose. I was lucky to have enough set aside to get the testing done but I don't have anything else set aside to pay the remaining tens of thousands that it will take to put my house back to the way it was. Pay a mortgage and pay rent (with no property available to rent). It's simply unaffordable. People become unemployed through no fault of their own. The government help them with generous benefits. Why is this different to you?

Cee-Jay-Cee

MrMusician18 wrote: »

You can have an opinion that I'm a mean spirited begrudger and that's fine with me. It's wrong, and my posts show that, but you're entitled to believe whatever you want.

What I won't let stand though is an veiled accusation that I'm either directing or controlling several accounts. Of course you post this without a shred of evidence (naturally because it isn't true). The real issue is your lack of ability to countenance that you know not everyone is thrilled about having to pay to resolve an issue the State was not the cause of. And on top of that, for the protestors to turn their nose up at this generous help and then to not ask, but demand more as if the rest of us owed it to them is of course going to annoy a lot of people.

That's ok, I'm sure they'll get over it in time however 5000+ families wont get over it so easily if they were saddled with huge bills that they simply cant afford.

I know of one woman, she's 62 and live alone and has no children. She had approx. €8000 in the bank and was planning to change her 2002 Toyota yaris this year. Her savings are now gone as she had to pay for block testing to the tune of €6200. Yes, she will get back 90% of that however her house has been recommended for full demolition due to the level of mica in inner and outer leafs. She has been quoted €185 approx. for demolition/rebuild of her 3 room semi-d home. The grant covers €145k or something around that figure. She has to continue paying the mortgage on her worthless home and also pay for storage and rent new accommodation while building work is ongoing. She is on €203 a week. She has told the council to postpone it as she simply hasn't got and cant get €50k to repair her home as well as pay a mortgage and pay additional rent.

But to you that's absolutely fine and she should just be happy that she's getting €145k.

NIMAN

Good support from Marc McSharry (FF) today on NewsTalk.
From 09:30 in.
More or less said he would resign over it, to stand with Dara Calleary.

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/page/1/filter?filter_selected=show-filter&show=lunchtime-live&series=all

MrMusician18

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

That's ok, I'm sure they'll get over it in time however 5000+ families wont get over it so easily if they were saddled with huge bills that they simply cant afford.

I know of one woman, she's 62 and live alone and has no children. She had approx. €8000 in the bank and was planning to change her 2002 Toyota yaris this year. Her savings are now gone as she had to pay for block testing to the tune of €6200. Yes, she will get back 90% of that however her house has been recommended for full demolition due to the level of mica in inner and outer leafs. She has been quoted €185 approx. for demolition/rebuild of her 3 room semi-d home. The grant covers €145k or something around that figure. She has to continue paying the mortgage on her worthless home and also pay for storage and rent new accommodation while building work is ongoing. She is on €203 a week. She has told the council to postpone it as she simply hasn't got and cant get €50k to repair her home as well as pay a mortgage and pay additional rent.

But to you that's absolutely fine and she should just be happy that she's getting €145k.

Hold on now, I never said the current scheme was perfect, in fact I have suggested several ways that the scheme could be improved. And as I said there are ways to make this more affordable rather than heaping more debt on the State. I've suggested low or at cost loans (and since government debt is so cheap it would be a practical zero interest rate), I've suggested shared equity (something which seemingly is good enough for first time buyers and the elderly). But no none of these are good enough for the protesters and there is no effort to meet the tax payer even half way. If the goal here is to have safe homes to live in then why aren't these ideas satisfactory?

Yes the above situation is tough and I'm sorry to hear about it. Let me tell you a story though, I know of one woman not wealthy by any stretch and her house burned down, totally destroyed. Lost all. No insurance. The council didn't go out and reconstruct her house though, she got social housing.

NIMAN

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Yes the above situation is tough and I'm sorry to hear about it. Let me tell you a story though, I know of one woman not wealthy by any stretch and her house burned down, totally destroyed. Lost all. No insurance. The council didn't go out and reconstruct her house though, she got social housing.

Thats a very sad story too, but there is a difference.

If she had insurance, her house would have been rebuilt. Not sure why she was taking the risk of not insuring her house?

Mica homeowners all had insurance, but the insurance companies aren't accepting any liability.

Cee-Jay-Cee

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Yes the above situation is tough and I'm sorry to hear about it. Let me tell you a story though, I know of one woman not wealthy by any stretch and her house burned down, totally destroyed. Lost all. No insurance. The council didn't go out and reconstruct her house though, she got social housing.

If that were allowed to happen here, it would cost more. We all know there aren’t enough social houses available and to build them is actually more expensive than self builds due to ridiculous levels of compliance and standards they have to meet. It is cheaper to let the people rebuild their own homes.

NIMAN

Also remember, if many people got what they wanted, and those affected were given no redress or the current flawed scheme, and they couldn't afford it, then there would be thousands going on the Donegal social housing list, and the government would have to rehome them all. Many could effectively be homeless overnight if homes get much worse.

Since there are currently next to no houses available in Donegal for social housing, they would have to start a massive building programme up here, which would cost them a fortune as well.

Edit: Cee-Jay-Cee beat me to it!

MrMusician18

Penfailed wrote: »

"Sgt David Molton from the Garda Siochana, who was coordinating the protest got in touch with Paddy last night and wants the following message put out:
He said Paddy and the organisers were a joy to deal with from start to finish.He also wanted to thank every single person who attended. It’s been a long time since the Gardai had such a large crowd so well behaved, not one arrest, not one angry word and not one piece of litter left behind on the streets. On behalf of himself and his officers he said that the people who attended are a credit to the counties they represented and wants to express his utmost thanks for the way everyone conducted themselves."

While it's great that the march passed peacefully and was well behaved, the above is some of the most condescending nonsense from a Garda I've ever seen. A credit to their counties, like something a school principal would come out with :rolleyes:

Penfailed

MrMusician18 wrote: »

While it's great that the march passed peacefully and was well behaved, the above is some of the most condescending nonsense from a Garda I've ever seen. A credit to their counties, like something a school principal would come out with :rolleyes:

Have you anything good to say about anyone? The guards didn't have to comment at all. Condescending nonsense? No.

jj880

MrMusician18 wrote: »

While it's great that the march passed peacefully and was well behaved, the above is some of the most condescending nonsense from a Garda I've ever seen. A credit to their counties, like something a school principal would come out with :rolleyes:

Its a pity you wouldnt address the relevant government departments in this crisis nevermind the gardai.

Since you are so concerned about wasted taxpayer money lets here what you have to say about the council using taxpayer's money to buy uninsured unregulated defective blocks?

Leave the homeowners out of it for a second and actually answer the above question instead of your endless posts about "why should the taxpayer pay?" (Has been explained several times) and "homeowners want a blank cheque" (also debunked several times)

muffler

MrMusician18 wrote: »

While it's great that the march passed peacefully and was well behaved, the above is some of the most condescending nonsense from a Garda I've ever seen. A credit to their counties, like something a school principal would come out with :rolleyes:

Stop with the put downs. Warning given.


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Ace2007

Ace2007 wrote: »

Equally it’s naive to think that the insurance wouldn’t cover any - even the worse 500 house to be rebuilt.

Most insurance products are not just one insurance company - there is reinsurance as well that could be another one or two companies. I’m not saying that this supplier has this but it appears that no one has gone to any length to find out.

Literally all the action groups would need to do is to produce this document stating that there is no insurance cover in place and then there is no other option than the government.

This document would even stand as a warning and at the very least would probably bring to a standstill any building works from this supplier/quarry.

So quite simply how come no one from the 6000 number that you mentioned can produce this and put this is the public eye to win support over from the public who question why it’s left to the government.

So, do you still believe that all the victims have to do is produce this document?
Because, if so, what's all this about?
Every time one of your arguments is debunked, you just come up with more objections. Why? It seems to me that no matter what the victims do, or how inaccessible/unaffordable this scheme is for people, you are just going to find more objections....

Ace2007 wrote: »

Exactly, the basis of the arguments by many on here are that the government failed in regulation of the supplier/blocks and in oversight. All that will also apply to an investment fund.

Let's not forget there will be "private citizens" who live in these apartments, and through no fault of their own could be defective - should they suffer if the investments don't pay for the work to be done?

This is going to open up a huge can of worms - and no doubt the Government and AG want to limit any exposure.

Ace2007 wrote: »

That's the existing scheme, and there were calls during the protest or on some show to remove that PPR as there are those with holiday homes or living abroad paying mortgages on houses that are falling apart.

Like it's been said if the basis is poor regulation/oversight by the government - then the investment funds will take the country to the cleaners if something serious goes wrong - they will simply play the card of sure you paid out for mica why not for this etc...

Also what's the definition of one property - is that one entire block of apartments if they bought it in one lot?

Ace2007 wrote: »

There have been calls by the campaigners to include non PPR though.

But i love how it's the investment funds that should have done their due diligence, but none of those due diligence processes fall on the person who built their house or bought it.

This is exactly why i asked the question, because the answer should be the exact same - it shouldn't matter who owns the property - if the basis for your argument is lack of government regulation/oversight then this applies to all.

Ace2007 wrote: »

I wonder what the reaction will be from the mica groups if the government gives the 100% costs but limits it to PPR. Will the group accept it, or will they push for all to be included. Kinda comes back to who decides if the deal put forward by the government is acceptable - does it fall all on the one group of people?

Ace2007 wrote: »

I have no problem with anyone getting it really - i just know that there will be absolute uproar if this was an investment fund looking for redress, or if one comes looking in 5 years time and we have to pay them billions to fix.

The mere question of it and this was the reply i got by a poster - people will react very different depending on who owns the property - even if the basis is the exact same.



I've said it many times on this thread that i hope that those affected get a good deal from the government, but writing a blank cheque and covering all costs will open the state up to claims from all angles in the future.

Ace2007 wrote: »

But nobody can put a figure on how much this will all cost nor how many houses are affected. Those action groups are demanding 100% redress no less, but can't put a figure on how much that is. Even government sources are throwing round random numbers





So it's gone from 1 billion, to 1.5 billion (50% increase), to 2.4 billion (240% increase) all in the last few days. And the 2.4bn figure is optimistic.

This could end up at 5bn for all we know. To me that's definition of a blank cheque.

Ace2007 wrote: »

We'll agree to disagree on the matter and may pick it up when the government recommendations come out and see who agrees with them and where we go from there.

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

There is no real "precedent". A precedent is what is determined legally. My point is that an investment fund could take legal action to force the government to treat its properties the exact same.

The reason is that people are arguing that the justification for the redress scheme is a lack of government action on ensuring build standards. Why has no one or collectively as a Mica group not taken the government to court over this? If it was an investment fund affected, then they would have the monetary power to do so. The most likely reason is that anyone who has asked for legal advice will be told it's going to be a non-runner.

Stating the pyrite scheme as a precedent does not automatically imply that 100% redress is the actual precedent, it applies within a budgetary constraint. There's no such thing as an unlimited precedent.

You do realise that A: Investment funds tend not to buy huge amounts of property in Donegal, Mayo, or Sligo, and
B: Corporate law is very different to Common and Tort law?


If that weren't the case, large Corporations could sue Governments for poor investment choices a lot more frequently than is currently the case.

muffler wrote: »

Someone did suggest earlier in thread that maybe the discussion should be in the Current Affairs Forum. Id be forever grateful to anyone who wanted to start a debate there

Ah, now, Muffler, we wouldn't want to spoil your fun modding here!:p:D
(Sorry, Muffler, I couldn't resist!:))

malinheader

MrMusician18 wrote: »

While it's great that the march passed peacefully and was well behaved, the above is some of the most condescending nonsense from a Garda I've ever seen. A credit to their counties, like something a school principal would come out with :rolleyes:

You must be very sad you can't find anything for you to complain about the March. Still fills me with pride how people conducted themselves I always knew people from my county were well known for their manners, probably something makes you very jealous and probably why you have done nothing but constantly whine and cry about what other people might get.

malinheader

Just watched a video from south william street in Dublin circulated on social media.
And people had the cheek on here asking us to behave ourselves when in Dublin. No wonder the Gardai praised the people after watching what they have to deal with .should look it up mr musician might change your mind.

That's a big might though.

jj880

malinheader wrote: »

Just watched a video from south william street in Dublin circulated on social media.
And people had the cheek on here asking us to behave ourselves when in Dublin. No wonder the Gardai praised the people after watching what they have to deal with .should look it up mr musician might change your mind.

That's a big might though.

Just watched it. Started with scrotes harassing a pregnant woman apparently. Shocking.

If extra gardai were hired to police south william street Mr Musician logic would be for Donegal people to cry foul and be on here testifying "why should Dublin people get a blank cheque for more gardai?"

MrMusician18

malinheader wrote: »

Just watched a video from south william street in Dublin circulated on social media.
And people had the cheek on here asking us to behave ourselves when in Dublin. No wonder the Gardai praised the people after watching what they have to deal with .should look it up mr musician might change your mind.

That's a big might though.

I think you missed my point. It's great that the protesters were well behaved. But it's a bit cringe of the Garda named to describe them as "a credit to their counties" as if they were rowdy GAA supporters attending a match.

It's not a slight on the attendees by the way. Just a comment on a condescending guard that's all.

malinheader

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I think you missed my point. It's great that the protesters were well behaved. But it's a bit cringe of the Garda named to describe them as "a credit to their counties" as if they were rowdy GAA supporters attending a match.

It's not a slight on the attendees by the way. Just a comment on a condescending guard that's all.

Not one bit cringe. I would say alot of visitors to this thread was hoping there would be some sort of altercation as to have something else to throw out there.
I still don't get why you even made the point.

Cee-Jay-Cee

malinheader wrote: »

Just watched a video from south william street in Dublin circulated on social media.
And people had the cheek on here asking us to behave ourselves when in Dublin. No wonder the Gardai praised the people after watching what they have to deal with .should look it up mr musician might change your mind.

That's a big might though.

Seen it too, a fine example of Dubliners respecting their city.

muffler

Let's stick to the mica issues please. Thanks.

Triangle

I have to say I was one of the why should the tax payer fund this, just watched a RTE special on the issue this morning.
100% behind the 100% redress now. No one should be left in this situation. It's absolute crazy it's gone on this long.

jj880

Anyone who really wants to know the true story for mica homeowners and the costs they face under the current scheme can find it now in seconds. It's being heavily covered.

RTE were slow to get on board at the start but they are coming round to it. This scandal is not going away any time soon.

I went to secondary school with the woman in this clip. It is heartbreaking to see that a family of 7 have been forced from their home through fear of being crushed in the middle of the night. If this isnt sorted 1000s of families will end up the same. God know where she and her family will be when they eventually get redress.

https://twitter.com/RTE_PrimeTime/status/1404932863460626436?s=19

NIMAN

The crazy thing about that piece is that people have to spend 8k for a test to tell them they have mica, when it's so patently obvious to anyone.

Surely some houses simply don't need the test? Could the government not appoint a team of engineers to spend a few months up here, going round all the houses and saying "yip you have mica", for the ones that are falling to pieces?

Ok, I accept some houses might have minor cracking and will need a test to get a mica content level, but some are so obvious Stevie Wonder could sign them off.