The Curse of Defective Concrete (Mica, Pyrrhotite, etc.) in Donegal homes - Read Mod warning Post 1

jj880

A house in my estate has tested at 6% mica in the blocks. Owner was trying to sell and got a test. The house looks fine from the outside (a few hairline cracks but nothing up the corners, in the window reveals or any spider cracking) but obviously the sale fell through. The question is will a 6% mica house be fine for 100 years or deteriorate rapidly in the next 5 / 10 years? House built in 2006.

Nothing is going to sell without a clean mica test from now on.

Swindled

malinheader wrote: »

Does anyone know or have any information if the Government or Donegal county council have put a stop on these quarries producing blocks until the quality or more to the point the quantity of mica and cement that is in the blocks is tested.
Surely at this stage some quarries should be being tested for quality of blocks. And probably all quarries should have blocks tested.

No, it's business as usual for manufacturers using the exact same quarries.
Also, DCC recently granted Cassidy's a 25 year extension to their quarrying planning permission, despite them being in non compliance with existing planning conditions ! The only ones doing anything are the taxpaying public in Inishowen who are tying their best to stop deliveries of Cassidy's blocks and concrete to social housing sites and private sites to help prevent further future issues, but plenty are still getting through.

MrMusician18

Swindled wrote: »

No, it's business as usual for manufacturers using the exact same quarries.
Also, DCC recently granted Cassidy's a 25 year extension to their quarrying planning permission, despite them being in non compliance with existing planning conditions ! The only ones doing anything are the public in Inishowen who are tying their best to stop deliveries of Cassidy's blocks and concrete to social housing sites and private sites to help prevent further future issues, but plenty are still getting through.

The minister outlines the current block regulations here in this very informative answer
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-15/616/

Swindled

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The minister outlines the current block regulations here in this very informative answer
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-15/616/

Like anything, pretty useless if in practice they don't police or enforce any of the national and EU legislation or standards. The manufactures are still carrying on even supplying the state with the same blocks as we speak.

NIMAN

jj880 wrote: »

A house in my estate has tested at 6% mica in the blocks. Owner was trying to sell and got a test. The house looks fine from the outside (a few hairline cracks but nothing up the corners, in the window reveals or any spider cracking) but obviously the sale fell through. The question is will a 6% mica house be fine for 100 years or deteriorate rapidly in the next 5 / 10 years? House built in 2006.

Nothing is going to sell without a clean mica test from now on.

Not a chance it'll last for 100 years, thats for sure.

I think its shocking that Mica filled houses are still allowed to be sold. I see ones for sale on Donegal estate agents websites. Gov need to shut that **** down asap.

Who is paying for the mica tests on houses up for sale?

I hope it's not a case that a potential buyer pays for it, gets the bad news, next buyer up pays for another test, ect ect.

timmyntc

whatnow! wrote: »

Who is paying for the mica tests on houses up for sale?

I hope it's not a case that a potential buyer pays for it, gets the bad news, next buyer up pays for another test, ect ect.

I think if house tests positive for MICA it has to be declared?

So whichever buyer pays for the test, will get stuck with the house.
Once it tests positive its virtually unsellable. No bank will lend against it.

Swindled

whatnow! wrote: »

Who is paying for the mica tests on houses up for sale?

I hope it's not a case that a potential buyer pays for it, gets the bad news, next buyer up pays for another test, ect ect.

It's never been up to sellers to do engineer and solicitor reports on properties for sale, it's up to the buyer's engineer and solicitor to do their due diligence. Would you gamble your life's savings, mortgage, and future home on a private sellers report who has zero liability under law ? I wouldn't. Lots of very unscrupulous estate agents out there, who don't even disclose that houses with obvious Mica problems have anything wrong.

Buyers that have scraped a deposit together are unlikely to risk €6,000 to €8,000 to pay for the first test, the seller probably doesn't want to take the risk if it has to be declared subsequently.

Whatever else happens the first thing is to bring down the cost of these tests.

Cee-Jay-Cee

malinheader wrote: »

Does anyone know or have any information if the Government or Donegal county council have put a stop on these quarries producing blocks until the quality or more to the point the quantity of mica and cement that is in the blocks is tested.
Surely at this stage some quarries should be being tested for quality of blocks. And probably all quarries should have blocks tested.

No Donegal county council are as much to blame for the current problems as Cassidys. They have closed down legitimate quarries because of pathetic objections by blow ins who want to buy land in the area to develop and allow cassidys to continue even granting them a 25 yr extension and to make matters worse they’re continuing to use cassidys blocks for social housing and public projects. These are blocks made from the same rock quarried from the same quarry that the affected blocks came from. Donegal CoCo are a toxic organisation who are up to their eyes in it and are continuing to back cassidys in an effort to cover up for their criminal failings in the past.

Swindled

whatnow! wrote: »

Buyers that have scraped a deposit together are unlikely to risk €6,000 to €8,000 to pay for the first test, the seller probably doesn't want to take the risk if it has to be declared subsequently.

Whatever else happens the first thing is to bring down the cost of these tests.

There's cheaper preliminary type tests available in Ireland, but who knows how reliable they are, the Mica redress scheme accepts nothing less that the proper accredited lab report and full petrographic Chartered Geologists microscopic analysis from the UK accompanied by an approved Chartered Engineer's report.

John_Rambo

Swindled wrote: »

No, it's business as usual for manufacturers using the exact same quarries.
Also, DCC recently granted Cassidy's a 25 year extension to their quarrying planning permission, despite them being in non compliance with existing planning conditions ! The only ones doing anything are the taxpaying public in Inishowen who are tying their best to stop deliveries of Cassidy's blocks and concrete to social housing sites and private sites to help prevent further future issues, but plenty are still getting through.

Jesus, what a **** storm up there. This Cassidy's bunch sound like a right pack of yokels. Making a fortune out of their neighbours misery. I hope someone brings them to court and they're held responsible for their part.

Swindled

John_Rambo wrote: »

Jesus, what a **** storm up there. This Cassidy's bunch sound like a right pack of yokels. Making a fortune out of their neighbours misery. I hope someone brings them to court and they're held responsible for their part.

This "**** storm" is also being allowed to occur elsewhere in Ireland as well, where they are, or are not from has nothing to do with it.

Cherry Blossom

NIMAN wrote: »

Not a chance it'll last for 100 years, thats for sure.

I think its shocking that Mica filled houses are still allowed to be sold. I see ones for sale on Donegal estate agents websites. Gov need to shut that **** down asap.

I’ve been looking to buy a property on a tight budget for some time now. I have seen a LOT of mica houses in my price range. They have all been in estates that predominantly owned by buy to let folks. I think the redress scheme doesn’t cover these houses and they are chancing their arm trying to sell the problem on. I don’t know where you would stand as someone who bought a mica house for 70 grand with a rebuild cost being a higher figure. These houses are not selling so I think maybe you wouldn’t qualify for the redress scheme if you were to buy now. Some of the houses are confirmed mica others haven’t been tested but the tell tale signs are there.

Swindled

Cherry Blossom wrote: »

I’ve been looking to buy a property on a tight budget for some time now. I have seen a LOT of mica houses in my price range. They have all been in estates that predominantly owned by buy to let folks. I think the redress scheme doesn’t cover these houses and they are chancing their arm trying to sell the problem on. I don’t know where you would stand as someone who bought a mica house for 70 grand with a rebuild cost being a higher figure. These houses are not selling so I think maybe you wouldn’t qualify for the redress scheme if you were to buy now. Some of the houses are confirmed mica others haven’t been tested but the tell tale signs are there.

Currently, anyone who buys a property after 1st January 2020 is not covered under the redress scheme, even if you can prove it is your only primary principle residence (another condition of the scheme). Very scary for any buyer who buys their home after 1st Jan 2020. You may be able to appeal this, if you can prove you could not have known when you bought the house, but good luck to any who tries to convince DCC of that.

NIMAN

Well I can understand the gov angle on people buying houses now with mica on the cheap, and expecting them to be tumbled and fixed for free.

Buyer beware now. It's so widely publicised you couldn't claim you didn't know. Or at least your solicitor couldn't.

malinheader

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

No Donegal county council are as much to blame for the current problems as Cassidys. They have closed down legitimate quarries because of pathetic objections by blow ins who want to buy land in the area to develop and allow cassidys to continue even granting them a 25 yr extension and to make matters worse they’re continuing to use cassidys blocks for social housing and public projects. These are blocks made from the same rock quarried from the same quarry that the affected blocks came from. Donegal CoCo are a toxic organisation who are up to their eyes in it and are continuing to back cassidys in an effort to cover up for their criminal failings in the past.

100% correct. Any word on the man who was Head of the council when this was happening being on the mica redress board. Surely this cannot happen.

Swindled

malinheader wrote: »

100% correct. Any word on the man who was Head of the council when this was happening being on the mica redress board. Surely this cannot happen.

Put the foxes in charge of the hen house safety enquiry regarding chicken deaths. You couldn't make it up.

Mcdock

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

No Donegal county council are as much to blame for the current problems as Cassidys. They have closed down legitimate quarries because of pathetic objections by blow ins who want to buy land in the area to develop and allow cassidys to continue even granting them a 25 yr extension and to make matters worse they’re continuing to use cassidys blocks for social housing and public projects. These are blocks made from the same rock quarried from the same quarry that the affected blocks came from. Donegal CoCo are a toxic organisation who are up to their eyes in it and are continuing to back cassidys in an effort to cover up for their criminal failings in the past.

Have cassidys not stopped selling blocks now
Site n Carn changed to Chambers
Site started in buncrana, using Robinson blocks,

RobMc59

Cherry Blossom wrote: »

I’ve been looking to buy a property on a tight budget for some time now. I have seen a LOT of mica houses in my price range. They have all been in estates that predominantly owned by buy to let folks. I think the redress scheme doesn’t cover these houses and they are chancing their arm trying to sell the problem on. I don’t know where you would stand as someone who bought a mica house for 70 grand with a rebuild cost being a higher figure. These houses are not selling so I think maybe you wouldn’t qualify for the redress scheme if you were to buy now. Some of the houses are confirmed mica others haven’t been tested but the tell tale signs are there.

The current cost of mica testing is prohibitive so perhaps looking at properties built before the problems started-mid 90s?

malinheader

Mcdock wrote: »

Have cassidys not stopped selling blocks now
Site n Carn changed to Chambers
Site started in buncrana, using Robinson blocks,

Have Cassidys stopped making blocks is the question I would like to know.
Also should that quarry not be totally closed down pending testing of materials.
Also should all quarries not be stopped until testing of materials is done.
Sounds draconian but this has to stop.

malinheader

Swindled wrote: »

Put the foxes in charge of the hen house safety enquiry regarding chicken deaths. You couldn't make it up.

If this man has anything to do with a scheme or enquiry it will show that it is only a farce pretending to find the truth of what went on or is still going on.

Swindled

RobMc59 wrote: »

The current cost of mica testing is prohibitive so perhaps looking at properties built before the problems started-mid 90s?

Certainly safer bet statistically, but some are starting to crop up from the 80's but only in small numbers as of yet.
It's safe to assume the Mica mineral is common in the rock formations of large parts of Donegal and elsewhere, but in the past, as one theory goes, that when manufacturing was less precise, higher cement content has prevented problems showing up. So in theory all houses in Donegal could contain some % of Mica, but have enough excess cement content over and above the minimum required to off set it. (cement is the most expensive ingredient in concrete). That's why a simple "is Mica present test" is not really enough to determine completely the structural effects. Of course Mica content can completely vary as well, depending on the quarry, quarry seem / mineral veins etc. Cassidy's quarry seems to have been particularly bad for it, and if you are not complying with aggregate testing to detect it, or just as bad ignoring the results, you end up where we are.
Bottom line for buyers, employ an engineer you can trust to do a full report on the house, and also get a Mica test done, and in conjunction with the engineers advice decide. As well as your solicitor checking all for any legal issues with the property. It really is not that easy to find a good house / site on the market anywhere in Ireland (and I'm sure other countries as well) with no skeletons.

Swindled

Brilliant article with proper facts and detail about the failings of the outer leaf option from the concrete specialist Dr McCloskey :

https://www.donegallive.ie/news/news/645079/questionable-fixes-left-behind-from-current-defective-concrete-blocks-grant-scheme.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook&fbclid=IwAR08_vcc5S8-pzC0SylIfz4VTa-6vVwSiaPMouHUIvQB2CPOqmH-xDNGJPU

"There have been reports of Council employees questioning the recommendations of the Engineers/geologists, which is worrying"

Dr McCloskey believed Engineers could not let financial issues guide what they would recommend. He said the recommendations should be based on proven science and engineering principles.

“It would seem that some engineers are of the opinion that the degradation we are seeing in Donegal is purely a mechanical issue and only caused by freeze thaw action. I do not believe that to be correct and that claim would also seem to be at odds with the introduction paragraph 0.1 of the I. S. 465 Standard. From what I have seen, I am firmly of the opinion that there are other mechanisms happening.

“It would appear that little seems to be understood on how the concrete strength is actually affected by the free mica, other than it is significantly reduced. Some engineers' opinion is that the free mica in the cement paste, as it reacts, has no influence on the chemical reaction taking place. There are many publications which conclude that the presence of free mica, in increased quantities, in the cement paste significantly reduces the concrete strength – which would suggest to me that the free mica must be influencing the reaction of the cement phases.

Dr McCloskey noted geologists had also alerted people to the presence of pyrrhotite (an iron sulphide similar to pyrite) in the majority of samples, at levels beyond what would be deemed allowable in aggregate for concrete.

He said that Pyrrhotite has been the cause of a similar structural problems in several other parts of the world.

Swindled

Update on first meeting, held today

https://www.facebook.com/groups/297785338568131/permalink/330388535307811/

The first meeting of the Working Group on the Defective Blocks Grants Scheme has concluded. The following are the key outcomes of today's meeting:
Firstly, the meeting was very successful. We heard an update from Paul Benson (Dept Housing) on the Draft Terms of Reference on the Defective Blocks Grants Scheme. We then heard an update from John O' Connor from the Housing Agency on the Pyrite Resolution Scheme. Joe Peoples and Tom Gilligan from Donegal Co. Co. and Mayo Co. Co (respectively) gave their updates on the operation of the scheme to date and indicated that they are committed to resolving the key issues/challenges with the current scheme as soon as possible.
The preparation undertaken by both Donegal and Mayo representatives enabled us to present the issues in a matter that exemplified that we are all working together as a team to achieve 100% redress for families in our counties. We communicated that we deserve the same treatment as families in Leinster who received 100% towards the costs of fixing their homes as we currently feel we are being discriminated against. We also agreed on a two-pronged approach whereby some of the more urgent issues will be forwarded by us in the next few days for the Dept's consideration and more expedient implementation before the end of July. We indicated how important it is that we do not delay any decision- making or addressing of these issues. We also proposed 2 meetings of the group per week. The Dept raised the issue of the potential cost of this scheme to the Exchequer which is a recurring theme by government. However, we strongly responded that this was not going to be accepted by families as an excuse for inaction as it was due to Government lack of adherence to regulation and oversight that caused this catastrophe in the first place. To conclude, we feel this was a very constructive meeting and we look forward to getting into more detailed discussions next Wednesday (our 2nd meeting) on the inadequacies of the current scheme.

Agenda of the meeting didn't look like much either :

https://scontent-dub4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/205998185_10159733949732259_8911035998471990396_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=7svsMiPrxTIAX9hUwL_&_nc_ht=scontent-dub4-1.xx&oh=45dcffb92f64c7091c466ef2d19e2431&oe=60E0A538

Extremely worrying that none of our chartered engineers with concerns about the discredited outer leaf option are at these meetings.

As proven time and time again, you cannot ever trust these Department and Council types, anyone who does always ends up regretting it.

Penfailed

MrMusician18 wrote: »

That's extremely insulting to the staff of DCC. Just because a clients engineer submits a report, doesn't mean that is contents cannot be challenged.

Planning permissions are rejected all the time despite being accompanied by reports completed by engineers.

According to my engineer (and anecdotally) the council are pushing the lowest cost option rather than the best engineering solution. They deserve the insults in that case.
Your second paragraph is a very bad analogy.

Penfailed

Penfailed wrote: »

According to my engineer (an anecdotally) the council are pushing the lowest cost option rather than the best engineering solution.

Is the best engineering solution the most expensive option?

Swindled

Penfailed wrote: »

According to my engineer (an anecdotally) the council are pushing the lowest cost option rather than the best engineering solution. They deserve the insults in that case.
Your second paragraph is a very bad analogy.

Correct they are promoting the outer leaf replacement option, which will lead to the houses having to be demolished anyway, but spending an extra 150k on them beforehand. This option has been tired and failed on many houses already.
As Dr McCloskey says recommendations should actually be based on proven science and engineering principles.
This is the same council that are still using Cassidy's to supply them with concrete blocks for brand new social housing estates, which will down the road all have to be demolished afterwards as a result of DCC's incompetence / corruption.
This is the same DCC that recently granted Cassidy's a 25 year extension to the planning permission to their dodgy quarry, despite them being in breach of their existing planning conditions.

Swindled

whatnow! wrote: »

Is the best engineering solution the most expensive option?

No, actually it's the least expensive in the long run.

MrMusician18

Penfailed wrote: »

According to my engineer (an anecdotally) the council are pushing the lowest cost option rather than the best engineering solution. They deserve the insults in that case.
Your second paragraph is a very bad analogy.

No one deserves this insults on a forum where they are not here to defend themselves.

What is the best solution depends on your perspective. If my company were to fly me to an overseas event and I was free to choose the best solution, surely I'd go for the private jet. The company that's paying for my trip would choose the cheapest option available as it achieves the main goal of getting me there for as little as possible.

The goal here is for people to get safe homes at as low of cost as possible, not to preserve resale value, inheritance, restitution or anything else. The cheapest solution to achieve the goal of getting the homes safe is the best from the States perspective.