The Curse of Defective Concrete (Mica, Pyrrhotite, etc.) in Donegal homes - Read Mod warning Post 1

I agree that the outer leaf only will not solve the problem in the houses the campaigners are choosing to put on TV.

Who exactly (named individuals and qualifications) are saying this is an adequate solution?

Penfailed

whatnow! wrote: »

Is the best engineering solution the most expensive option?

If the council are trying to force people to choose a cheaper option over a structurally sound option, then the answer is obvious.

Penfailed

MrMusician18 wrote: »

No one deserves this insults on a forum where they are not here to defend themselves.

What is the best solution depends on your perspective. If my company were to fly me to an overseas event and I was free to choose the best solution, surely I'd go for the private jet. The company that's paying for my trip would choose the cheapest option available as it achieves the main goal of getting me there for as little as possible.

The goal here is for people to get safe homes at as low of cost as possible, not to preserve resale value, inheritance, restitution or anything else. The cheapest solution to achieve the goal of getting the homes safe is the best from the States perspective.

You're really good at giving bad analogies.

Swindled

Penfailed wrote: »

If the council are trying to force people to choose a cheaper option over a structurally sound option, then the answer is obvious.

and yet they are still using Cassidy's blocks themselves for social housing, and therefore will be racking up a massive future bill for the taxpayer, but the Cassidy / Council / Department / Government supporters on this thread are not concerned about that or any other genuine waste of taxpayers money. Interesting isn't it ?

Penfailed

whatnow! wrote: »

Who exactly (named individuals and qualifications) are saying this is an adequate solution?

Up until quite recently, the council have only had one person approving or turning down the applications. I don't know their name or qualifications off the top of my head. I do know that they aren't a chartered engineer and they haven't gone through the same vetting process as the engineers on the council's approved list or done the training that the approved engineers had to do in order to get on the list.

muffler

whatnow! wrote: »

Who exactly (named individuals and qualifications) are saying this is an adequate solution?

You would need a FOI application to the Council for that. Good luck with it.

NIMAN

whatnow! wrote: »

I agree that the outer leaf only will not solve the problem in the houses the campaigners are choosing to put on TV.

Who exactly (named individuals and qualifications) are saying this is an adequate solution?

I know someone who had demolition recommended based on their lab results of the cores, but Donegal Coco said they only need outer leaf replaced.

Swindled

NIMAN wrote: »

I know someone who had demolition recommended based on their lab results of the cores, but Donegal Coco said they only need outer leaf replaced.

Sad to say, we now know, they will have to spend 100-150k taxpayers money on the outer leaf now, and then end up having demolish the house and rebuild anyway a few years later at the taxpayers expense when the inner leaf goes.

Vestiapx

MrMusician18 wrote: »

No one deserves this insults on a forum where they are not here to defend themselves.

What is the best solution depends on your perspective. If my company were to fly me to an overseas event and I was free to choose the best solution, surely I'd go for the private jet. The company that's paying for my trip would choose the cheapest option available as it achieves the main goal of getting me there for as little as possible.

The goal here is for people to get safe homes at as low of cost as possible, not to preserve resale value, inheritance, restitution or anything else. The cheapest solution to achieve the goal of getting the homes safe is the best from the States perspective.

I think the goal is that the hardworking people that bought blocks in good faith don't be out of pocket.

muffler

whatnow! wrote: »

I agree that the outer leaf only will not solve the problem in the houses the campaigners are choosing to put on TV.

Explain this assertion please.

I'm not looking to imply something there. A choice was made which houses made the TV programs that covered the issue. Someone made that choice and they didn't choose the least affected houses as that wouldn't do justice to the scale of the problem faced by some houses and none of the houses that were shown are going to be fixed to an adequate standard by outer leaf only and I doubt anybody can justify saying that they will be.

NIMAN

whatnow! wrote: »

I'm not looking to imply something there. A choice was made which houses made the TV programs that covered the issue. Someone made that choice and they didn't choose the least affected houses as that wouldn't do justice to the scale of the problem faced by some houses and none of the houses that were shown are going to be fixed to an adequate standard by outer leaf only and I doubt anybody can justify saying that they will be.

But many houses that aren't bad now have the very real potential to end up looking like the examples used on tv. It might take 5yrs, 10yrs, 15yrs but they will deteriorate eventually.

And I'm not surprised that the worst examples are used to highlight the issue. It would be crazy to pick examples of houses in the early stage of crumbling when there are so many in the latter stages and dangerous. It's not like they are trying to con anyone, these are houses effected and don't see why they would not pick the worst ones.

NIMAN

Swindled wrote: »

Sad to say, we now know, they will have to spend 100-150k taxpayers money on the outer leaf now, and then end up having demolish the house and rebuild anyway a few years later at the taxpayers expense when the inner leaf goes.

I have heard of folk who replaced the outer leaf themselves and figures of 10k to 15k.

Now I appreciate that the builders may have been paid cash, but even if it was official and it would cost 25k, why are we now hearing figures now up to 150k to replace the outer leaf.

MrMusician18

Vestiapx wrote: »

I think the goal is that the hardworking people that bought blocks in good faith don't be out of pocket.

That may be the protesters goal but that is obviously not that of government.

Once the houses are safe and livable, to see out their design life - (60 years would've been the intended life when these were originally constructed iirc) that should be more than satisfactory.

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

It's not like they are trying to con anyone, these are houses effected and don't see why they would not pick the worst ones.

Never said that and you obviously agree that a decision was made to put the worst on TV.

That is my assertion which you appear to agree with and which the moderator in the thread questioned me on.

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

I have heard of folk who replaced the outer leaf themselves and figures of 10k to 15k.

Now I appreciate that the builders may have been paid cash, but even if it was official and it would cost 25k, why are we now hearing figures now up to 150k to replace the outer leaf.

That is exactly the issue and what most people who are in favour of helping to pay for this are concerned about. The cost of everything will increase overnight when the government is picking up the bill. It basically happens in almost 100% of cases when the government gets involved.

Swindled

NIMAN wrote: »

I have heard of folk who replaced the outer leaf themselves and figures of 10k to 15k.

Now I appreciate that the builders may have been paid cash, but even if it was official and it would cost 25k, why are we now hearing figures now up to 150k to replace the outer leaf.

You don't do a whole house legally for 25k, I don't care what rumours are going round. 3/4 bed single stories only are coming in around 80k, even if you can get anyone to price for you.

Swindled

MrMusician18 wrote: »

That may be the protesters goal but that is obviously not that of government.

Once the houses are safe and livable, to see out their design life - (60 years would've been the intended life when these were originally constructed iirc) that should be more than satisfactory.

Except they aren't, it's been tried and failed, that's the whole issue, houses with the outer leaf replaced only 3-4 years ago are seeing the inner leaf going now.

Also insurance companies are refusing to insure any house even when the outer leaf is done, and all the engineers bar none are refusing to indemnify that option.

MrMusician18

Swindled wrote: »

You don't do a whole house legitimately for 25k, I don't care rumours are going round. 3/4 bed single stories only are coming in around 80k, even if you can get anyone to price for you.

Yeah, you won't get prices like 25k from builders and expect to get receipts shall we say.

MrMusician18

Swindled wrote: »

Except they aren't, it's been tried and failed, that's the whole issue, houses with the outer leaf replaced only 3-4 years ago are seeing the inner leaf going now.

Also insurance companies are refusing to insure any house even when the outer leaf is done, and all the engineers bar none are refusing to indemnify that option.

You'd find out hard to get any engineer to indemnify or certify any structure that they were not involved with the construction of to be honest.

Swindled

MrMusician18 wrote: »

You'd find out hard to get any engineer to indemnify or certify any structure that they were not involved with the construction of to be honest.

That's not what they are refusing to certify, they are refusing to indemnify that the outer leaf replacement to prevent the inner leaf going due to Mica will work. That's the whole issue and original purpose of the works. In other words it's pointless temporary cosmetics. The the inner leaf carries all the roof load via the wall plate, and joists / precast concrete upper floor.

Swindled

Swindled wrote: »

...it should be capped at the current market rate per sq m which is well known for each region...

Can you give the market rate per sq m for a stated region?

You're hurting my feelings now.

Swindled

whatnow! wrote: »

You're hurting my feelings now.

Since when did you care about that ?

Accusing the mods of having a vested interest in the mica redress scheme on your way out the door?:)

Anyway, the whole thing needs to be brought to a resolution quickly in a cost efficient manner and if there is one person in DCC who is rejecting claims and holding up the show while not having any qualifications or experience in this area, while inflationary pressures drive up the cost of everything, if I were in your shoes I would make that issue front and center at your next meeting.

Would you considering setting up fund where everyone affected contributes €20 and you can produce all the reports you need as this now needs to be submitted to the government that they can budget for and the emotional approach only goes so far when we are talking about a couple of billion at least.

Penfailed

whatnow! wrote: »

Would you considering setting up fund where everyone affected contributes €20 and you can produce all the reports you need as this now needs to be submitted to the government that they can budget for and the emotional approach only goes so far when we are talking about a couple of billion at least.

The working group have already had their first meeting and the next one is scheduled for next week. They already have all the information they require. They will be making their submission to the minister on #micaDday on the 31st of July. Then the timeline gets sketchy. The minister will, no doubt, have to speak to the attorney general and other government departments which will inevitably slow everything down...again.

jj880

Penfailed wrote: »

The working group have already had their first meeting and the next one is scheduled for next week. They already have all the information they require. They will be making their submission to the minister on #micaDday on the 31st of July. Then the timeline gets sketchy. The minister will, no doubt, have to speak to the attorney general and other government departments which will inevitably slow everything down...again.

2.5 hours of pure waffle is what I heard it was. Introductions and a history lesson. Sure we get that every time Charlie McConalogue opens his mouth. Paddy Diver is not happy with it and rightly so. Its a shame the election is so far away. It could turn into a long drawn out battle. I wasnt aware 31 July is to be the working group reporting back to O'Brien. I see it now in the Oireachtas.ie records for 15 June. Signs are not good. They have started trying to stall already.

Colin Clarke

Looking at how long this has been allow to go on is disgraceful, but atleast now its look like these home owners might be getting some sort of resolution. But EVERY and I mean EVERY citizen of Ireland has to keep this problem to the fore. Don't let this Government or any future Government fob us off with unfulfilled empty promises. None of these home owners should be out of pocket, they bought their homes in good faith and its not their fault that faulty blocks where used. I hope those effected will keep the rest of the Country upto date on whats is and what isn't being done so that the rest of us can help to keep the pressure on the Government to keep their promises

John_Rambo

When it comes to county councils you have to keep on top of them or they'll just put it on the long finger and hope to retire before having to do anything. Pity Swindled left, very informative. Hopefully he's fighting the fight in other areas with a bit less sensitivity.

NIMAN

The sad thing about all this for me is that in the end, there will be zero accountability.
No-one will be held responsible. And the taxpayers are on the hook again.

If I had my way, any quarry owners who knowingly supplied crap materials and made huge profits, should have all their assets seized by the state. Their homes, their cars, their bank accounts. Jail time should happen but won't. Should this debacle cost the state 2bn, 5bn, 10bn...it'll cost the quarry owners not one cent. They will remain wealthy for the rest of their lives.

Any council management who has covered up any dodgy practices, behind the scenes deals, signing off big contracts with suppliers who they know were supplying bad materials, should be sacked immediately. Told they no longer have a job with the state. Again of course, not a single person whose signatures are all over this mess will suffer any comeback. It's the way we do things here.

And any government minister in charge who hasn't ordered immediate quality tests on EVERY SINGLE IRISH QUARRY material, should have to answer for any future failings, because more will come out, that much is nearly guaranteed. Why had no-one asked "so Micheal, I assume you are testing all the blocks coming out of Irish quarries now?"