The Curse of Defective Concrete (Mica, Pyrrhotite, etc.) in Donegal homes - Read Mod warning Post 1

jimmycrackcorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117740847#Comment_117740847

Why do you think the taxpayer should provide you with 90% of 500k ( or even a shed and garage )? Shouldn't the obligation be to provide you with simply the same as is provided for social housing? You can certainly get a house built for 247k, there are even houses on sale in Donegal for less than 200k, so would it not be better for the government to buy one of those for you and your family?

You're just providing additional reasons for the general public to be unsympathetic because I for one am not getting a shed and garage from the government and I doubt I'd be the only one that has the same POV.

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117740809#Comment_117740809

Strong deja vu here yet again. Round and round we go again. Nobody is "getting" anything for free. They should be getting what they have already paid for. This is the government's fault. They allowed self regulation in quarries. They have let this crisis get to the stage it is at now. For this reason they need to intervene now with redress then chase up whoever is liable later. Sure the housing minister has stated as much about chasing insurance companies. Your idea about abandoning mica houses and just buying up 200k houses is idiotic. Do you think there are 1000s of these houses available in Donegal? Even if these houses appeared out of thin air just jam people who have large families and worked hard to build their homes into some random 200k house? Nonsense.

Also I know of a couple that have been trying to get an extra room on their house due to having more children. It had been on hold for years due to mica in their house. They have worked with the council / builder and it is now part of their planning for rebuild. They are paying for 100% of the extra room themselves as they should. You need to be sure about this "first hand" information you have. Also all these extras you maintain people are putting into plans - did anyone actually get them paid for through the redress scheme in your first hand information? If not then nobody took the p!ss out of anything did they? You're blowing pointless hot air on here with your last few posts.

jimmycrackcorm

You are side-swiping with the "strong deja vu" argument and trying to make an emotional case instead of a rational one.

People are asking for money for free - they are asking the government to provide them with free money. They paid money to the builder then so logically they should go back to the builder and ask for what they paid for. They didn't pay the government for their house. If I buy a car from a garage and it falls apart, then I don't get to go to the government and ask for a replacement.

Your "government fault" argument is based on the assumption of upholding the regulations/self-regulation. If that is the case- then why isn't this the focus of the mica campaigns by proving that in court?

I didn't suggest abandoning mica houses in favour of buying up 200k houses. It's clearly obvious that there isn't a nice stream of home replacements and you patently know that. I questioned why someone should be given 90% of 500k for a house when house prices in Donegal under 200k suggest that houses can be provided for that value. What right has someone to say I want 450k to rebuild my house when the council could literally go out tomorrow and actually buy one suitable to house them? Obviously, it doesn't work in scale, and obviously, there are going to be significant problems trying to address the MICA problem through having enough builders even and the increased supply/demand costs.

Again, from my being a Donegal born and bred, but living in Dublin POV, your point about "just jam people who have large families and worked hard to build their homes into some random 200k house?" won't generate any sympathy if you want to march up here.

As for "You need to be sure about this "first hand" information you have. Anyone is free to disbelieve me, it doesn't matter to me. I don't have an agenda but I do have an opinion, I just simply point to my long posting history, and people are free to see if I'm credible or not.

Finally on your point "They have worked with the council / builder and it is now part of their planning for rebuild. They are paying for 100% of the extra room themselves as they should.". Is this not proof of the scheme working as it should be? An example of people not taking the piss.

DrPhilG

It's the second coming of Musician whatsisface here.

Nobody is asking for free money or free anything. They're asking for restoration and justice.

Yes the builder should foot the bill for that. But if the builder gets away without doing so it's because the government's lack of regulation allowed them to, so it's now the government's fault.

If the odd person is chancing their arm then they should be denied. It's not difficult. And if anyone wants to make changes from the original, they should pay the difference.

DrPhilG

All this talk of "suitable housing" is completely ignoring the justice aspect of the issue.

If I buy myself a Ferrari and someone crashes into me and writes it off, the insurance company doesn't give me a 2005 Ford Focus and make the argument that it's suitable because it's got 4 wheels and gets from A to B.

Insurance should provide like for like. Whether in a car or a house.

And as before, where the insurance industry fails to provide that due to a lack of government regulation, then the government carry the can.

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117740921#Comment_117740921

My example about the couple getting the extra room was to counter your "people scamming and taking the piss" argument. This couple have 2 very good jobs and are in their 40s. However they still have no idea what kind of bill they will be left with at the end of redress due to the raft of hidden charges and cap of 247,500 to include rent of another house during rebuild. They might make it through but they will probably be in debt up to their eyeballs. That is if they can get the bank to loan them what they need to finish rebuild. The scheme at present will leave large groups of people either skint, in debt for the rest of their lives or stuck in a house falling down round them or homeless / in a caravan in their garden. E.g. a pensioner with a state pension and no savings. If you choose to think that's the way a scheme like this should be working then I'm not sure I can convince you of anything.

water-man

I think Jimmy raises fair points and concerns. And to get the support needed so the effected families can get quick resolution these concerns & others need to be listened seriously to not just batted away as not being supportive.

I honestly believe the effected families should not have to pay a penny (and I include everything here - demolition of existing home, storage of re-usable items, building of new home, accommodation while building work being completed) however I strongly feel it should not be a like for like replacement either. It should not be a bog standard council house (whatever that is).

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117742552#Comment_117742552

I am listening and countering but will not concede on points of the scheme I see as failing or unjust. Can I ask what you think the replacement houses should be?

Personally I would be open to large developments of modular homes with no concrete blocks involved at all. But there would need to be some kind of fairplay depending on what you had before and size of your family. E.g. I dont think a family should get a 3 bed semi if they had a 5 bed bungalow and have 5 children.

babybuilder

Beware anything modular especially a prefabricated wood product panel in Ireland especially along the Western seaboard.

joe40

Just to change topic slightly, how are people finding access to engineers at this stage. I have some cracks I'm concerned about but it is proving difficult to even get an engineer for an initial assessment.

What are the wait times people are experiencing with engineers. I appreciate they're very busy by the way, this isn't meant as a criticism.

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117743294#Comment_117743294

Interesting. What are the options apart from concrete blocks? Clay facing bricks?

I would be terrified if I was rebuilding my house at the moment with concrete blocks. I haven't heard where blocks are coming from or what testing is being done for the redress scheme. There are defintely a few houses locally to me that are half rebuilt through the scheme. I have thought about asking in the facebook redress group but I dont want to put any extra pressure / stress on people who are currently rebuilding. I have not seen this mentioned anywhere so far.

RobMc59

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117743294#Comment_117743294

Thinking about these type of houses,what about scandinavian manufactured?The weather can be pretty wild up there!

NIMAN

You can only assume the blocks now on the market for repairing homes are fit for purpose. If they aren't, then that's just scandalous after all the media coverage this issue has got.

The government should be asked exactly what testing is being done on blocks coming out of every Irish quarry. If only a journalist or newspaper could do some research into this. Proper investigative journalism.

Just look at the houses in Skerries now crumbling. Where did those blocks come from, and how many other houses in that part of the country have been built with blocks from that source?

The mica issue in Donegal and Mayo is going to be so costly to fix, I would be shocked if the government aren't all over the quarries now to check their output.

babybuilder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117744615#Comment_117744615

If the government were all over it the quarries would've have been shut. No communication to the contrary.

water-man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117742691#Comment_117742691

This needs explored in detail however one idea would be that the effected families get a choice from say 10 different style houses. E.g family A live in a dormer here are 2 designs to choose from, Family B live in a 2 story house here are 2 designs to choose from etc etc.

My reason behind this type of idea is it allows a detailed specification of requirements to be gathered which can then be put out for tender by the government and a time line provided to each family when their home will be corrected so they can plan alternative accommodation etc.

I fully accept not everyone will be 100% happy as no doubt some will end up with a smaller house through no fault of their own and there will be some who will have had 5 en-suites but now won't etc. I've tried to imagine how I would feel in this instance, which would be very very annoyed, but at least my family will have a safe roof over their head which today they do not.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117746115#Comment_117746115

This doesn't make any sense to me. The existing scheme doesn't cover any of this. It doesn't even cover excavation and relaying of foundations. People are expected to reuse the existing found which means the house must be the same footprint as before.

NIMAN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117746115#Comment_117746115

It is an interesting idea, and one which would make it a lot easier for the government to get houses rebuilt more quickly. It would be rare for any 2 houses to be built the same, and so the Gov at present are faced with rebuilding possibly 2000 different house designs, if they are to build 'like for like'. But if they had say 12 templates, they could tender these out in a more organised fashion, and know what materials need to be bought in bulk for the house rebuilding. But are any suggestions like these even being proposed in the meetings?

But not sure how much traction it would get among the protestors. It seems to be 'like for like' and nothing else.

Of course those on social media don't speak for everyone. I know if I was offered a template of X number of houses and told to pick one, I'd probably be happy to have it built in the place of my old house. But not everyone will. Perhaps it could be asked of applicants when they apply to the scheme, let each one decide. But I suppose that splits the protest.

water-man

Hey it's just one idea. I'm quite sure there are much smarter people than me working on this. I just thank God every day that my family are not effected as I can't imagine the stress it must be on top of the usual family daily worries.

As I've said above I fully support 100% redress it's just I cannot envisage how the Government can tender out 2 or 3 thousand unique homes to be all re-built "like for like" - I'm sorry. I feel the protesters (feels like the wrong word to use but can't think of another right now) will need to present some alternative ideas or be open to them and investigate how feasible they are to keep the momentum going and pressure on the politicians.

NIMAN

Unfortunately the public face of the campaign is quite simple. It's 100%, like for like, no matter what.

Of course we all agree that the homeowners did nothing wrong and do deserve to have their homes reinstated but I do think it would help the scheme massively if there was some 'give' on that side. I woild guess there are plenty of affected folk out there who would happily pick a house out of a choice of say 3, for their family size and have it rebuilt. I know I would, I have no emotional attachment to my current design.

But as I said, can't see this idea getting traction for so many reasons.

DrPhilG

I think there will eventually be some give on the 100% side. But given that the government appeared to agree a 90/10 in the past that turned out to be a pile of shyte, I think it's only sensible that they campaign for 100% for the time being.

CastorTroy

With regard using templates, I would be curious to see how many affected standalone houses there are compared to housing estates

RandomViewer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117750315#Comment_117750315

Think Cassidys was councils favourite block supplier, fair chance any council estate built since 2000 is dodgy, all them private estates over Leck, Rahanmore, heading up Correnagh are suspect

I can foresee a big problem in Donegal / Mayo if and when the government agree to a 100% redress, and houses are demolished.

Where are they going to find the builders to build 2000+ houses? Its hard enough to find a builder in Ireland at the moment to build a simple shed.

RandomViewer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117751708#Comment_117751708

Price of materials and actual availability is another one, would be fond of DIY and have noticed marked increase in materials

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117750504#Comment_117750504

The Council doesn't build any houses directly so they dont have a "block supplier"

jimmycrackcorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117742541#Comment_117742541

I'm not sure how you can convince me either, but I'm open to arguments as are the vast majority of people. But it really comes down to the simple fact that life is unfair and there are plenty of people who face circumstances where they don't get a hand out from the government. Believe me, I really do have huge empathy, and I've stated previously that it's only right that the government provides a form of redress, because the situation is impossible for so many to deal with on their own. I don't think anyone in the country argues otherwise.

But here's a counter argumentative example, unrelated to MICA, and one that you can treat as hearsay that I was told about a friend of one of my siblings in Donegal. He was married for close to 40 years and his wife decided then that she didn't want to be with him any longer. Kids were grown up and they split up and she demanded they sell the house and split the proceeds. He, as is not unusual, had worked all his life and paid the mortgage off and bills and she was a housewife. Here he was at 60 years of having facing homelessness but his children stepped in and guaranteed a loan to buy her out. My sibling said to me, his friend will have to work well into his 70's to pay them back.

The point being, one man's home crisis is his, but get a group of people together and it becomes a burden on all of us. If it weren't for his children stepping up to help, then he'd become your example of being homeless / in a caravan. So do you think the state should hand over a few hundred grand to people with failed marriages?

jimmycrackcorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749728#Comment_117749728

The 100% campaign actually has great value as a negotiating technique to get traction on redress. It puts pressure on the government to actually start doing something, but I think it's not going to succeed in its own aim if the public gets wind of the bad examples. Personally, I find it bizarre that people demanding pure 100% redress feel this sense of entitlement for 100%. But maybe that's because I'm looking at my kitchen that hasn't been updated in 20 years and thinking it would be nice if I got money from the government to get a new one...

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117778928#Comment_117778928

If the house had mica your sibling's friend would have got half the value of the site minus demolition and disposal costs - is that fair?

The government has a duty to regulate quarries not marriages. Some of the comparisons in this thread are mind boggling.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117778928#Comment_117778928

That's a strange comparison that bears no resemblance to what's going on.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117778929#Comment_117778929

"Bad examples"? What bad examples?

People seem to have no idea what the scheme covers and it's frustrating reading posts like this ^^^

Homeowners are expected to remove, store and reuse everything. Kitchens, roof tiles, doors, windows, etc., etc. I'd be perfectly happy to have my fifteen year old kitchen reinstalled after demolition.