Female sexual harassers and double standards

newport2

Comparing the feminist movement to mens' rights groups is apples to oranges.

What women faced in the past was serious discrimination preventing choice of lifestyle, freedom, etc. Neither men nor women in the west face anything like that now.

If all women faced a 100 years ago in terms of discrimination was what men face now, the feminist movement would never have got off the ground. As such, asking men to go out marching about double-standards in society is facile, but that doesn't mean these double-standards don't exist. Just as they do for women. Pointing them out doesn't make you a whinger.

The day men are made to give up their jobs when getting married is the day you'll see men on the streets marching.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

newport2 wrote: »

As such, asking men to go out marching about double-standards in society is facile, but that doesn't mean these double-standards don't exist. Just as they do for women. Pointing them out doesn't make you a whinger.

Exactly.

There's no need for anyone to go marching on the streets. Just apply the same attitudes and sanctions regardless of the perpetrator's gender. Currently, women get off far too lightly when it comes to sexual harassment and sexual assault.

Malayalam

newport2 wrote: »

Comparing the feminist movement to mens' rights groups is apples to oranges.

What women faced in the past was serious discrimination preventing choice of lifestyle, freedom, etc. Neither men nor women in the west face anything like that now.

If all women faced a 100 years ago in terms of discrimination was what men face now, the feminist movement would never have got off the ground. As such, asking men to go out marching about double-standards in society is facile, but that doesn't mean these double-standards don't exist. Just as they do for women. Pointing them out doesn't make you a whinger.

The day men are made to give up their jobs when getting married is the day you'll see men on the streets marching.

yeah, the marching men got to do is when they march in the post war victory parades 100 years ago, after coming back from slaughter. It was never about gender divide, it was always class. Most men 100 years ago had it as bad as women in many ways, just different. It was only the rich who had power of any sort.

El_Duderino 09

Santos Square Extinguisher wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Lol at the idea that shouting and roaring is good and mass activism is rolley eyes.

It strikes me that some men are so in love with the idea of being the bigger victim in the victim pool, that they'd roll their eyes at a proven solution.

If a woman were to shout at a man who grabbed her crotch, would you roll your eyes?

And you think men who experience sexual harassment at the hands of women are just in love with the idea of being victims?

Women do sexually harass men. If all you can do is laugh and roll your eyes at the idea of men complaining about this, then you're just vividly illustrating the double standards that I started this thread to illustrate.

You've lost the run of it so let me clear it up for you. I would not roll my eyes. If someone called out a man or woman who had grabbed their crotch. As I said earlier its appropriate to call it out at source (I never mentioned rolley eyes. That was another poster's response to the idea of an awareness campaign).

I think some men are married to the idea of being he victim instead of actually solving the problem. I doubt that group includes people who have been sexual harassed themselves. If someone considers themselves to have been seriously sexually assaulted, then I would imagine they're more inclined to solve the double standard rather than sit around and complain about double standards

Women do sexually harassed men. Agreed. And there is a perception that issue just a laugh when women do it. See the reaction of the men in the pub in the story posted above. But I disagree with that idea.

I think it's grand to react in the moment. But I think the real gain for the future would be to proactively campaign for change in attitudes. That could only rouse a rolley eyes from GJ unfortunately.

Still waiting to hear why GJ is so opposed to activism. Would be fascinating to know when these fellas who are supposedly so interested in the double standards, wouldn't want to follow the proven method to solve the problem

Airyfairy12

It sounds like youre looking for reasons to hold women accountable when theyre harassed and not show any support for them. The argument of im not supporting women because this thing happened to a man in America' is a disgraceful argument and says more about you and the type of mind set you have than anything else.

Only recently this year a young woman was gang raped in Ireland and was accused of lying while their was huge concern out poured from the media and public for the poor rapists and the potential of their reputations being tarnished, who were also let go Scott free might I add. Imagine if people on here started accusing the man in your post of lying and started standing up for the women against him - drag out a couple of threads here regarding rape cases and female victims and you'll see a myriad of such comments aimed at the victim.

The only reason we're even hearing about it is because it so rare, this hardly ever happens to men yet its a common occurance for women, you cant go a week without opening a news paper and seeing a picture of a murdered wife, mother or girlfriend. Thats not to belittle whats happened to him, its horrific and I hope he gets the justice and peace of mind he deserves, but dont use this as a stick to beat women with, especially female victims of rape and harassment.

El_Duderino 09

newport2 wrote: »

Comparing the feminist movement to mens' rights groups is apples to oranges.

What women faced in the past was serious discrimination preventing choice of lifestyle, freedom, etc. Neither men nor women in the west face anything like that now.

If all women faced a 100 years ago in terms of discrimination was what men face now, the feminist movement would never have got off the ground. As such, asking men to go out marching about double-standards in society is facile, but that doesn't mean these double-standards don't exist. Just as they do for women. Pointing them out doesn't make you a whinger.

The day men are made to give up their jobs when getting married is the day you'll see men on the streets marching.

I agree the men's movement and feminism are different things. Feminism is very successfully changing culture and the men's movement isn't.

If you're willing to wait around until things get really bad, then that's what you'll get. But you do t need to wait that long to be proactive. In recent years Ireland achieved marriage equality and repealed the 8 amendment because propel became active over the years. Nothing happens quickly, but obviously you don't need to wait until things get very bad before you do something about it.

That sore of defeatist attitude is a big part of the problem

El_Duderino 09

Santos Square Extinguisher wrote: »

newport2 wrote: »

As such, asking men to go out marching about double-standards in society is facile, but that doesn't mean these double-standards don't exist. Just as they do for women. Pointing them out doesn't make you a whinger.

Exactly.

There's no need for anyone to go marching on the streets. Just apply the same attitudes and sanctions regardless of the perpetrator's gender. Currently, women get off far too lightly when it comes to sexual harassment and sexual assault.

And how do you achieve that without activism or campaigning?

Airyfairy12

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

It sounds like youre looking for reasons to hold women accountable when theyre harassed and not show any support for them. The argument of im not supporting women because this thing happened to a man in America' is a disgraceful argument and says more about you and the type of mind set you have than anything else.

Only recently this year a young woman was gang raped in Ireland and was accused of lying while their was huge concern out poured from the media and public for the poor rapists and the potential of their reputations being tarnished, who were also let go Scott free might I add. Imagine if people on here started accusing the man in your post of lying and started standing up for the women against him - drag out a couple of threads here regarding rape cases and female victims and you'll see a myriad of such comments aimed at the victim.

The only reason we're even hearing about it is because it so rare, this hardly ever happens to men yet its a common occurance for women, you cant go a week without opening a news paper and seeing a picture of a murdered wife, mother or girlfriend. Thats not to belittle whats happened to him, its horrific and I hope he gets the justice and peace of mind he deserves, but dont use this as a stick to beat women with, especially female victims of rape and harassment.

I presume this is the trial in Belfast that you're revising?

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You've lost the run of it so let me clear it up for you. I would not roll my eyes. If someone called out a man or woman who had grabbed their crotch. As I said earlier its appropriate to call it out at source (I never mentioned rolley eyes. That was another poster's response to the idea of an awareness campaign).

I think some men are married to the idea of being he victim instead of actually solving the problem. I doubt that group includes people who have been sexual harassed themselves. If someone considers themselves to have been seriously sexually assaulted, then I would imagine they're more inclined to solve the double standard rather than sit around and complain about double standards

Women do sexually harassed men. Agreed. And there is a perception that issue just a laugh when women do it. See the reaction of the men in the pub in the story posted above. But I disagree with that idea.

I think it's grand to react in the moment. But I think the real gain for the future would be to proactively campaign for change in attitudes. That could only rouse a rolley eyes from GJ unfortunately.

Still waiting to hear why GJ is so opposed to activism. Would be fascinating to know when these fellas who are supposedly so interested in the double standards, wouldn't want to follow the proven method to solve the problem

Sorry, but I genuinely can't make head nor tail of what you're trying to say here. It's so muddled that it makes no sense at all.

jim salter

bobbysands81 wrote: »

There’s a world of a difference between sexual attention and sexual harassment.

... and surprise sex

El_Duderino 09

Santos Square Extinguisher wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You've lost the run of it so let me clear it up for you. I would not roll my eyes. If someone called out a man or woman who had grabbed their crotch. As I said earlier its appropriate to call it out at source (I never mentioned rolley eyes. That was another poster's response to the idea of an awareness campaign).

I think some men are married to the idea of being he victim instead of actually solving the problem. I doubt that group includes people who have been sexual harassed themselves. If someone considers themselves to have been seriously sexually assaulted, then I would imagine they're more inclined to solve the double standard rather than sit around and complain about double standards

Women do sexually harassed men. Agreed. And there is a perception that issue just a laugh when women do it. See the reaction of the men in the pub in the story posted above. But I disagree with that idea.

I think it's grand to react in the moment. But I think the real gain for the future would be to proactively campaign for change in attitudes. That could only rouse a rolley eyes from GJ unfortunately.

Still waiting to hear why GJ is so opposed to activism. Would be fascinating to know when these fellas who are supposedly so interested in the double standards, wouldn't want to follow the proven method to solve the problem

Sorry, but I genuinely can't make head nor tail of what you're trying to say here. It's so muddled that it makes no sense at all.

I believe you. I'll simplify it.

Calling out at sexual harassment in the moment is grand. If you want to change culture then activism and campaign is the way to do it. Simple stuff really.

optogirl

Treasury Bond wrote: »

Feminism also acts as an outlet for women who can't compete in the sexual market place so become bitter that men can gain attractiveness points by gaining power and status.

wow - that's some take you have there.

B0jangles

optogirl wrote: »

wow - that's some take you have there.

I'm 99.9% sure it's that obsessive re-reg poster back again.

givyjoe

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Lol at the idea that shouting and roaring is good and mass activism is rolley eyes.

It strikes me that some men are so in love with the idea of being the bigger victim in the victim pool, that they'd roll their eyes at a proven solution.

I think we're all rolling our eyes are your tiresome posting style and the axe you like to grind, which I'd say has no small part in why you've been banned from threads, warned and ignored by many posters. Your double standards are the only thing that's really worth LOL'ing at.

As for a proven solution, pull the other one, I haven't heard of the sexual assault or rape rates falling off a cliff thanks to #metoo, have you?

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I believe you. I'll simplify it.

Calling out at sexual harassment in the moment is grand. If you want to change culture then activism and campaign is the way to do it. Simple stuff really.

I thought we had already changed the culture around sexual harassment?

Airyfairy12

givyjoe wrote: »

As for a proven solution, pull the other one, I haven't heard of the sexual assault or rape rates falling off a cliff thanks to #metoo, have you?

No but it raised awareness and allowed people to see how common sexual harassment is, that said ive many friends whove been raped or sexually harassed who didnt get involved with it and im sure many others didnt either so what we've seen of the metoo movement doesnt even scratch the surface.

There are solutions, education for one. Consent classes were brought in but so many people objected to them, men in particular, they fell through before they even got started. Men can be assaulted/harassed too and there is a need for education around boundaries and whats appropriate.

Airyfairy12

Santos Square Extinguisher wrote: »

I thought we had already changed the culture around sexual harassment?

What gives you that impression? Open any news paper and you'll read about the rapes, attacks, sexual harassment and gender based violence that takes place all of the time. The posters thread is a clear indication that we havnt changed the culture around sexual harassment.

Airyfairy12

Treasury Bond wrote: »

I think it's true, some women can't compete in terms of femininity and attractiveness, and they become bitter that what attractiveness they do have depreciates faster than men, whereas men can "earn" attractiveness through power and social status.

I think some men become feminists out of bitterness that they can't compete with masculine attractive men, so they decide to join a force to condemm masculinity. Kind of like the sore loser kid who takes his ball home because he can't win.

Well... youre entitled to your opinion. Doesnt make it right.

El_Duderino 09

givyjoe wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Lol at the idea that shouting and roaring is good and mass activism is rolley eyes.

It strikes me that some men are so in love with the idea of being the bigger victim in the victim pool, that they'd roll their eyes at a proven solution.

I think we're all rolling our eyes are your tiresome posting style and the axe you like to grind, which I'd say has no small part in why you've been banned from threads, warned and ignored by many posters. Your double standards are the only thing that's really worth LOL'ing at.

As for a proven solution, pull the other one, I haven't heard of the sexual assault or rape rates falling off a cliff thanks to #metoo, have you?

Ok. I'll leave the personal stuff separate from my response.

Yes activism is a proven solution. Not to your strawman. Activism created he double standard so many posters love talking about. In the past minor sexual harassment wasnt taken seriously for men or women. The activism over the last decade has to focused on female sexual harassment and now female sexual harassment is taken seriously.

Tell me you understand that much. Or how do you think the double standard came about?

Malayalam

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

What gives you that impression? Open any news paper and you'll read about the rapes, attacks, sexual harassment and gender based violence that takes place all of the time. The posters thread is a clear indication that we havnt changed the culture around sexual harassment.

That was always kind of going to be the problem with metoo, though, wasn't it.

There are different kinds of sexual assault. Many women, including me, have experienced at least two kinds. One is the out of the blue violent attacker (known or unknown) who sexually assaults and with whom there is no element of bargaining. The other kind - and the kind that I personally saw represented more so especially in the celebrity metoo (though I could be wrong) - is the bargaining for gain or advancement sexual assault or the use of unequal power to harrass. Many women, myself included, have been offered advancement or potential for gain if we exchange sexual favours, or we have felt sexually pressured by reason of unequal power balance. Those situations generally (not always) have an element of opt out potential - don't be so hungry for fame or advancement that one submits.
The conflation by metoo of these two particular forms of sexual assault annoyed me from the very beginning as it made all harrassment and assault equivalent, which it is not. Metoo could never have had any impact upon the rates of violent sex crime in general society as those perpetrators are not reached by such campaigns.

El_Duderino 09

Santos Square Extinguisher wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I believe you. I'll simplify it.

Calling out at sexual harassment in the moment is grand. If you want to change culture then activism and campaign is the way to do it. Simple stuff really.

I thought we had already changed the culture around sexual harassment?

If that was the case there wouldn't be the double standard which posters keep referring to.

I'll explain. Campaigning focused on female sexual harassment, attitudes towards female sexual harassment changed.

If campaigning focused on male sexual harassment then.....

You finish the sentence.

givyjoe

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ok. I'll leave the personal stuff separate from my response.

Yes activism is a proven solution. Not to your strawman. Activism created he double standard so many posters love talking about. In the past minor sexual harassment wasnt taken seriously for men or women. The activism over the last decade has to focused on female sexual harassment and now female sexual harassment is taken seriously.

Tell me you understand that much. Or how do you think the double standard came about?

Activism has 'solved' sexual harassment and rape has it?

Honestly, I've no idea where you're pulling the nonsense on 'minor' sexual harrassment not being taken seriously when perpetrated against women, the only doubt is around the prevalence.

The double standard here is you calling men whingers for posting about their experiences, something which you don't do for women.. do YOU get it now?

southstar

Cilantro2000 wrote: »

Show me evidence that I have "whinged", you seem to want to believe I'm whinging. I'm enjoying the discussion and exposing feminist hypocricy.

Why should I campaign for men's rights, I never said that advancing men's rights or gender equality was a goal of mine.

The reason you want to portray an image that a poster is "whingeing" is because it's a covert attempt to attack a poster's character rather than addressing the substance of the argument.

I know there should be a straight pride march as well....anybody mention snowflakes or virtue signalling yet?.This ****e gets fairly tiresome ...makes me wonder if there aren't some ulterior motives/ forces behind all this telling it like it is sthick.... recently saw a video posted on Youtube criticising the socialist NHS,and the dangers of 'socialized medicine,.. apparently of UK origin, but clearly unaware that the majority of Brits value and benefit from it...just wonderin like

optogirl

givyjoe wrote: »

Activism has 'solved' sexual harassment and rape has it?

Honestly, I've no idea where you're pulling the nonsense on 'minor' sexual harrassment not being taken seriously when perpetrated against women, the only doubt is around the prevalence.

The double standard here is you calling men whingers for posting about their experiences, something which you don't do for women.. do YOU get it now?

In fairness he's not calling men whingers for talking about their experiences - He's calling men whingers for immediately presuming that feminists don't take sexual assault against men seriously - which is not my experience at all.

Airyfairy12

Malayalam wrote: »

That was always kind of going to be the problem with metoo, though, wasn't it.

There are different kinds of sexual assault. Many women, including me, have experienced at least two kinds. One is the out of the blue violent attacker (known or unknown) who sexually assaults and with whom there is no element of bargaining. The other kind - and the kind that I personally saw represented more so especially in the celebrity metoo (though I could be wrong) - is the bargaining for gain or advancement sexual assault or the use of unequal power to harrass. Many women, myself included, have been offered advancement or potential for gain if we exchange sexual favours, or we have felt sexually pressured by reason of unequal power balance. Those situations generally (not always) have an element of opt out potential - don't be so hungry for fame or advancement that one submits.
The conflation by metoo of these two particular forms of sexual assault annoyed me from the very beginning as it made all harrassment and assault equivalent, which it is not. Metoo could never have had any impact upon the rates of violent sex crime in general society as those perpetrators are not reached by such campaigns.

No, not all sexual violence is the same but I dont think thats what the metoo movement was suggesting, it gave women the opportunity to say that theyve experienced sexual assualt without having to go into detail or expose too much personal information about their experiences which are often painful and uncomfortable. It allowed women to not be victims or share sad/depressing stories while still raising the awareness of how common these occurrences are.
I didnt think the metoo movements purpose was to reach perpetrators, it reached people who were unaware how common this behavior is and how many women that they know and love have been through some kind of sexual assault or harassment. It reached men who thought that these occurrences were rare and felt that women need to shut up about feminism and equality. The purpose of it was to raise awareness.
I dont talk about my rape story or countless experiences with sexual harassment or abuse that ive been experiencing since the age of 9, and neither do my female friends, its so common, so normal that we dont even think about it or try to talk about it because where would we start and how would we even begin too? Metoo gave us the ability to say that this happens and its common, more common than anyone really understands. I didn't grasp the extent of it until the movement and im apart of it.
Keep in mind allot of sexual abusers/harassers and rapists dont wear a sign on their head, there ex boyfriends, husbands, friends and seemingly decent men that have allot of friends and are well liked among their peers, maybe the movement will bring a little bit of self awareness to their own behavior and will make twice about harassing another woman in the future. Abuse thrives in silence and things only change when people start speaking up.
The movement opened up a discussion and that was its purpose.

Malayalam

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

No, not all sexual violence is the same but I dont think thats what the metoo movement was suggesting, it gave women the opportunity to say that theyve experienced sexual assualt without having to go into detail or expose too much personal information about their experiences which are often painful and uncomfortable. It allowed women to not be victims or share sad/depressing stories while still raising the awareness of how common these occurrences are.
I didnt think the metoo movements purpose was to reach perpetrators, it reached people who were unaware how common this behavior is and how many women that they know and love have been through some kind of sexual assault or harassment. It reached men who thought that these occurrences were rare and felt that women need to shut up about feminism and equality. The purpose of it was to raise awareness.
I dont talk about my rape story or countless experiences with sexual harassment or abuse that ive been experiencing since the age of 9, and neither do my female friends, its so common, so normal that we dont even think about it or try to talk about it because where would we start and how would we even begin too? Metoo gave us the ability to say that this happens and its common, more common than anyone really understands. I didn't grasp the extent of it until the movement and im apart of it.
Keep in mind allot of sexual abusers/harassers and rapists dont wear a sign on their head, there ex boyfriends, husbands, friends and seemingly decent men that have allot of friends and are well liked among their peers, maybe the movement will bring a little bit of self awareness to their own behavior and will make twice about harassing another woman in the future. Abuse thrives in silence and things only change when people start speaking up.
The movement opened up a discussion and that was its purpose.

Fair points.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

What gives you that impression? Open any news paper and you'll read about the rapes, attacks, sexual harassment and gender based violence that takes place all of the time. The posters thread is a clear indication that we havnt changed the culture around sexual harassment.

Despite the impression your newspaper might give you, the incidence of rape and sexual assault against women and girls has declined remarkably in recent decades, across almost every Western nation. Between 1995 and 2005 in the United States, for instance, the rate of sexual violence against women and girls aged 12 or older fell by 64 percent, and it has continued to decline. So, yes, the culture has most definitely changed, and there's a plethora of evidence to illustrate that.

One aspect that still needs attention is the awareness that women can be perpetrators of sexual violence. The Center for Disease Control (CDC) in the US recently expanded its National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey to ask men about their experiences of sexual violence. Almost 7 percent of men reported that, at some point in their lives, they had been forced to penetrate someone sexually against their will. The vast majority of these forced-penetration cases occurred when a man was compelled (by way of threats, blackmail, coercion, taking advantage of intoxication, and/or using or threatening violence) to vaginally penetrate or perform oral sex on a woman.

The prevalent discourse around sexual violence and harassment (where men are the perpetrators and women the victims) is simplistic and wrong. High-profile cases such as this one are at least bringing to light the fact that women also prey sexually on men.

keffiyeh

Santos Square Extinguisher wrote: »

When a man is found guilty of sexual harassment, women expect other men to join in unilateral condemnation of his actions.

The logic doesn't seem to work the other way, though, as seen in the case of Avital Ronell, a professor of German and Comparative Literature at New York University, who has been found responsible, after an internal university investigation, of systematically sexually harassing a male former PhD student, Nimrod Reitman, over a period of three years.

Citation needed. People care about all harassment, your assertion is pure fiction, unless you can prove it?

Santos Square Extinguisher wrote: »

So much for #MeToo.

Your actual agenda. You don't care about that sexually harassed man. You just want to discredit 'them damn feminists'. Gross. You care less about that man than most others. So gross AND hypocritical.

Airyfairy12

Santos Square Extinguisher wrote: »

Despite the impression your newspaper might give you, the incidence of rape and sexual assault against women and girls has declined remarkably in recent decades, across almost every Western nation. Between 1995 and 2005 in the United States, for instance, the rate of sexual violence against women and girls aged 12 or older fell by 64 percent, and it has continued to decline. So, yes, the culture has most definitely changed, and there's a plethora of evidence to illustrate that.

One aspect that still needs attention is the awareness that women can be perpetrators of sexual violence. The Center for Disease Control (CDC) in the US recently expanded its National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey to ask men about their experiences of sexual violence. Almost 7 percent of men reported that, at some point in their lives, they had been forced to penetrate someone sexually against their will. The vast majority of these forced-penetration cases occurred when a man was compelled (by way of threats, blackmail, coercion, taking advantage of intoxication, and/or using or threatening violence) to vaginally penetrate or perform oral sex on a woman.

The prevalent discourse around sexual violence and harassment (where men are the perpetrators and women the victims) is simplistic and wrong. High-profile cases such as this one are at least bringing to light the fact that women also prey sexually on men.

No one has ever suggested that women cant or dont perpetrate sexual violence, abuse or harassment, if you read my previous posts ive stated that education needs to be considered for both genders around whats appropriate behavior but you cant deny that theres an imbalance in statistics surrounding sexual abuse. Women talking about their stories and displaying anger around abuse theyve suffered doesnt take away from the abuse suffered by men at the hands of women and men in some cases, both are equally wrong but take for instances the suicide epidemic, both men and women take their own lives but theres an imbalance in that its more common for men to do so and as a result suicide is mostly talked about and discussed in terms of how it effects men and how thats clearly a problem with in society. You dont see women shouting whatabout women, or telling men to be quiet to stop acting like a victim and to shut up about suicide yet its the usual response from men when women talk about a common issue in society that mostly effects them.

Rape and sexual harassment figures may have dropped but just because things are a little bit better that doesnt make abuse ok, if figures are dropping thats a great sign imo and it shows we're moving in the right direction towards a safer and more equal society for everyone, to me thats an indication that we need to keep going and pushing further and harder until harassment and abuse of women is on par with the figures of abused men and then push further until its eradicated for both genders and is no longer the norm in society.

El_Duderino 09

givyjoe wrote: »

Activism has 'solved' sexual harassment and rape has it?

I’ve a fiver for you if you can show me where I said activism has solved sexual harassment and rape. If you could be so honest as to admit that was a straw man, then your credibility might lift off the ground.

givyjoe wrote: »

Honestly, I've no idea where you're pulling the nonsense on 'minor' sexual harrassment not being taken seriously when perpetrated against women, the only doubt is around the prevalence.

Ha! We have years of history where sexual harassment and even abuse wasn’t taken seriously. There was a time when A child could go to the guards and report a rape and all that would happen is they’d get a thump from the guard. That has changed through mass activism and massive education.

And we had a time more recently when touching a woman up was seen as just a bit of fun. That too has changed through activism and campaigning, including and predating the metoo movement.

Unfortunately there is still an attitude that it’s just a bit of fun to grope a man. I’d like to see that change. That’s my goal. If all you want to do is give out about feminists, then you probably won’t understand why I’d support the same sort of awareness raising that worked so well for children and women

Ps the point would be to make sure people who are harassed can come forward and make sure there are consequences appropriate to the offence.

givyjoe wrote: »

The double standard here is you calling men whingers for posting about their experiences, something which you don't do for women.. do YOU get it now?

If all you want to do is post ad nausium about feminists, then it’s just whinging.

If you want to post about feminism as a means to support activism that would actually solve the problem, then it’s not just whinging. It’s an important part of activism.

If in your particular case, you want to complain about feminism and actively ridicule the notion of activism to solve the problem, then it’s definitely whinging, pussing and moaning. Hope that clears it up.

If you know why you’re so opposed to activism, it would be great if you’d share your keen insights. If you’re honking hasn’t gotten that far beyond having an aul whinge about feminism, just say so.

El_Duderino 09

optogirl wrote: »

In fairness he's not calling men whingers for talking about their experiences - He's calling men whingers for immediately presuming that feminists don't take sexual assault against men seriously - which is not my experience at all.

Yes.

Plus people who purport to care about Male sexual harassment, but actually don’t care beyond using it as a means to bash feminism.

That’s doubly bad because it uses men’s suffering without actually caring about the men involved.

givyjoe

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yes.

Plus people who purport to care about Male sexual harassment, but actually don’t care beyond using it as a means to bash feminism.

That’s doubly bad because it uses men’s suffering without actually caring about the men involved.

You might be fooling your merry band of thankers, you ain't fooling the rest of us who are more familiar with your posting history.

Airyfairy12

givyjoe wrote: »

You might be fooling your merry band of thankers, you ain't fooling the rest of us who are more familiar with your posting history.

Sounds like you couldnt come up with a decent argument so attempted a personal low blow. Smooth.

givyjoe

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Sounds like you couldnt come up with a decent argument so attempted a person low blow. Smooth.

No, its literally what I've stated. You may not be, but I'm unfortunately extremely famliar with this posters particular brand of posting. EL dude has long been banging the 'whinging' drum at every turn. It's blatant trolling that's been used multiple times in multiple threads.

B0jangles

givyjoe wrote: »

No, its literally what I've stated. You may not be, but I'm unfortunately extremely famliar with this posters particular brand of posting. EL dude has long been banging the 'whinging' drum at every turn. It's blatant trolling that's been used multiple times in multiple threads.

I witnessed that - he posted in tGC and got banned ( not sure if forum or just threadbanned) for pointing out that many of the forum regulars were a hell of a lot keener on 'cursing the darkness' than making even the first steps towards possibly at some point 'lighting a candle'.


It's pretty much the same story here.

El_Duderino 09

givyjoe wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yes.

Plus people who purport to care about Male sexual harassment, but actually don’t care beyond using it as a means to bash feminism.

That’s doubly bad because it uses men’s suffering without actually caring about the men involved.

You might be fooling your merry band of thankers, you ain't fooling the rest of us who are more familiar with your posting history.

Grand so.

Now, have you figured out why you’re so opposed to campaigning and activism to change attitudes towards Male sexual harassment? It would be interesting to know why you would rolley eyes at activism when it has been so successful in changing attitudes towards other things in the recent past?

Airyfairy12

Bomb Voyage wrote: »

This is typical of feminists really, the evidence suggests feminists don't really care about gender equality, but simply advancing their self interests even if that creates more inequality and unfairness.

Lol. What evidence? whats their self interest? When has feminism created more inequality and unfairness?

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Rape and sexual harassment figures may have dropped but just because things are a little bit better that doesnt make abuse ok...

I have never said that abuse or harassment is okay. I don't believe that it ever is. I'm just pointing out the double standards and hypocrisy of academics who will decry sexual harassment and the patriarchy whenever the likes of Harvey Weinstein is in the dock, but will then defend a female colleague and smear her victim after she is found guilty of much the same behavior towards a man.

Airyfairy12

Santos Square Extinguisher wrote: »

I have never said that abuse or harassment is okay. I don't believe that it ever is. I'm just pointing out the double standards and hypocrisy of academics who will decry sexual harassment and the patriarchy whenever the likes of Harvey Weinstein is in the dock, but will then defend a female colleague and smear her victim after she is found guilty of much the same behavior towards a man.

Its took literally dozans of women to come forward about Harvey Weinstein before they were taken seriously or given any credit.

For every rape, abuse or harassment of a woman there are a group of men calling her a liar and protecting the abuser, as was the case with Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby and a number of recent rapes in Ireland where women have been accused of lying and their rapists set free, it happens all the time to women but youre ignoring that fact because one time its happened to a man and youre now using that a stick to beat feminists with.

Keep in mind Ireland has very lax laws around stalking and female victims of stalkers arent offered any protection unless their harasser puts them in physical danger. Stalking instances happen regularly in Ireland but we dont hear about them as theyre so common they dont even make a local news story, we're hearing about it when it happens to a man because its so rare.

And I completely agree with previous posters who suggest you dont care about the victim of that story, youve seen it as an opportunity to push your agenda.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

For every rape, abuse or harassment of a woman there are a group of men calling her a liar and protecting the abuser...

Hence the irony of this story, where a group of high-profile academics, most of them women, rallied around to protect a prominent female professor who sexually harassed her student for three years.

LLMMLL

Santos Square Extinguisher wrote: »

Hence the irony of this story, where a group of high-profile academics, most of them women, rallied around to protect a prominent female professor who sexually harassed her student for three years.

I think the irony is that the only people on this thread who talked about the victim and supporting him were feminists.

Everyone else just wants to use the case to give out about feminism.

El_Duderino 09

Always the tendency to believe some far away feminists who you’ve never spoken to or interacted with in any way. There are feminists in this thread, posting about how they support the male victim, support addressing the inequalities in the justice system, support changing attitudes towards men being sexually harassed.

And still the tendency is to dismiss those people and discuss the far away ones. I suppose it’s easier to stereotype people the less you actually know about them.

Airyfairy12

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

No but it raised awareness and allowed people to see how common sexual harassment is, that said ive many friends whove been raped or sexually harassed who didnt get involved with it and im sure many others didnt either so what we've seen of the metoo movement doesnt even scratch the surface.

There are solutions, education for one. Consent classes were brought in but so many people objected to them, men in particular, they fell through before they even got started. Men can be assaulted/harassed too and there is a need for education around boundaries and whats appropriate.

All of which expects men to change as if men, in general, are guilty of the sexual harassment of women, however, in normal terms of sexual harassment there is very little research (outside of the US) to show that men, in general, engage in sexual harassment.

The fact of the matter is that sexual harassment is illegal. In just about every context, we have laws in place to protect women from the attentions of those males (or females) who do engage in sexual harassment.

The problem though, with the metoo campaign and other such initiatives, is that there is no call on women to exercise their rights, involve the Gardai, and prosecute the aggressors. Instead, the focus is all about men learning about consent, to learn about <insert whatever issue women come up with>.

The focus is about making this a gender issue outside of the the actual law. Women have the tools in place to protect themselves, to get the guys doing this behavior arrested/prosecuted, but instead, you will hear constant excuses why women don't exercise those rights. They won't be believed by the police (although there is no evidence in modern times of that), that there's no sympathy for their claims (in spite of public opinion being very pro-female issues), etc.

At the end of the day, this is simply more of the same BS, of putting everything on the male gender, and avoiding having women actively being involved. That way women can complain about all the harassment, and pass off the responsibility for the lack of change.

B0jangles

B0jangles wrote: »

I witnessed that - he posted in tGC and got banned ( not sure if forum or just threadbanned) for pointing out that many of the forum regulars were a hell of a lot keener on 'cursing the darkness' than making even the first steps towards possibly at some point 'lighting a candle'.


It's pretty much the same story here.

Rose tinted glasses. El_D was banned from the thread for the constant shifting of goalposts (in spite of mods trying to pin him down), the style of his posting, and his negativity/dismissive attitude about male rights issues. It's the reason most of us who posted to that forum have him on ignore.

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote: »

B0jangles wrote: »

I witnessed that - he posted in tGC and got banned ( not sure if forum or just threadbanned) for pointing out that many of the forum regulars were a hell of a lot keener on 'cursing the darkness' than making even the first steps towards possibly at some point 'lighting a candle'.


It's pretty much the same story here.

Rose tinted glasses. El_D was banned from the thread for the constant shifting of goalposts (in spite of mods trying to pin him down), the style of his posting, and his negativity/dismissive attitude about male rights issues. It's the reason most of us who posted to that forum have him on ignore.

Rose tinted indeed. I am never dismissive about male rights. Unlike some of the regulars in TGC who couldn’t give a monkeys about men’s rights. They’re concerned with whinging about women
And feminism and that’s where it ends.

If you’re not willing to take part in the pity parade of ‘I can’t get a girlfriend and it’s all feminism’s fault’ then your views are pretty unwelcome in TGC.

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote: »

All of which expects men to change as if men, in general, are guilty of the sexual harassment of women, however, in normal terms of sexual harassment there is very little research (outside of the US) to show that men, in general, engage in sexual harassment.

The fact of the matter is that sexual harassment is illegal. In just about every context, we have laws in place to protect women from the attentions of those males (or females) who do engage in sexual harassment.

The problem though, with the metoo campaign and other such initiatives, is that there is no call on women to exercise their rights, involve the Gardai, and prosecute the aggressors. Instead, the focus is all about men learning about consent, to learn about

I don’t think metoo assumes all men are guilty. I know some women on hen nights think it’s fine to grab men, but I don’t assume it’s all, or even the majority or women. I do think some women could use some education on what constitutes sexual harassment.

But how do you target information at those who need to know? There’s no way to tell them from the rest of the population. So you target the entire population with the information to inoculate them and prevent people from stepping over the line.

How sad is it when someone steps over the line unwittingly and sexually harasses someone else? It means they harmed someone unknowingly AND now they have to pay the price. And there’s a victim who was sexually harassed. Education about what’s appropriate would have prevented both of those people being unhappy.

Why take it so personally? If you don’t sexually harass people and you know what’s appropriate and what isn’t, then you’re grand.

I think metoo is very much about providing encouragement for people who have been abused, to tell the the authorities.

I think you’ve got the wrong end of the stick on metoo.

El_Duderino 09

Double post

PlaneSpeeking

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Lol. What evidence? whats their self interest? When has feminism created more inequality and unfairness?

Gender quotas/Women only shortlists
Refusing better qualified men promotion so as to advance women to higher roles
Giving women easier targets to attain the same standard as men

And that's just in my place.

PlaneSpeeking

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I don’t think metoo assumes all men are guilty. I know some women on hen nights think it’s fine to grab men, but I don’t assume it’s all, or even the majority or women. I do think some women could use some education on what constitutes sexual harassment.

But how do you target information at those who need to know? There’s no way to tell them from the rest of the population. So you target the entire population with the information to inoculate them and prevent people from stepping over the line.

How sad is it when someone steps over the line unwittingly and sexually harasses someone else? It means they harmed someone unknowingly AND now they have to pay the price. And there’s a victim who was sexually harassed. Education about what’s appropriate would have prevented both of those people being unhappy.

Why take it so personally? If you don’t sexually harass people and you know what’s appropriate and what isn’t, then you’re grand.

I think metoo is very much about providing encouragement for people who have been abused, to tell the the authorities.

I think you’ve got the wrong end of the stick on metoo.

You are very very wrong there.

Was Ed Westwick "reported to the authorities" ? No he was sacked from several jobs, airbrushed out of one already filmed - all based on tweets.

Me Too is a mindless witchhunt, nothing more.

B0jangles

Your workplace is the most astonishing place - according to your many, many stories, it manages to fulfill every anti-feminist stereotype in one convenient location!