Bad reference

foolish to give a 'bad: reference these days

in writing, confirm person x worked and the dates and nothing more

verbally the same.

leaving it at that speaks volumes imo

seamus

mvl wrote: »

I imagine this type of "invalid reference" might need to be recorded in the HR files of the potential employers - as reason for not hiring the candidate. So could this get the potential employer in trouble ?

If they record it.

There's no obligation on a company to record details of the people they've interviewed, notes of any interview or the hire/fire decision.

Companies do it because it makes sense - you want to know who's been interviewed, and why they were or weren't hired, so that you can refer to it later on if needed.

But they don't have to. There's also nothing stopping a company from recording a simple "<manager> declined to hire" in the notes without any reason.

But maybe I am just naive

You're assuming the hiring and reference process is as robotic and procedural as companies like to make out and that everything is robustly recorded and noted in files.

Even in the largest companies, it's very normal for the interview panel to come together and discuss - without notes - a candidate, and decide on a hire/no hire decision.

In the latter case if the candidate is rejected because, "I spoke to a mutual friend who said he has a drug problem", then HR will simply record this as something like, "The panel did not feel this candidate would fit the culture of the company as well as some of the others".

Lux23

If you sue someone for defamation in Ireland, isn't it the defendant that has to prove what they said was (a) true and (b) well-known?

mvl

well ... I know what you mean. cause these ways of working are local.
then there is also this aspect (not working in this domain, but heard it mentioned on some other sites)
https://www.lawonline.ie/law-guides/business/hiring-staff/

It is important to minute notes of the interview. This will ensure that the necessary information is available to provide a rationale should the selection be challenged. Be aware of the fact that as an employer, you may have to provide feedback to unsuccessful applicants and disclose copies of the minutes to them if requested. The employment appeals tribunal may insist that an employer disclose documents, and so it is important that there are no disparaging remarks or discriminatory comments. Please also be aware of the obligations involved with respect to this personal data under the Data Protection Acts.

beauf

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

...and would still be in contact with some directors. They ask me back every few months and I give a polite no...

...I could write an email to the 2 copying in their director. A one liner...

..I would put nothing in writing. I would have have quiet word with the director you are on best terms with....

seamus

mvl wrote: »

well ... I know what you mean. cause these ways of working are local.
then there is also this aspect (not working in this domain, but heard it mentioned on some other sites)
https://www.lawonline.ie/law-guides/business/hiring-staff/

Advisory practice -v- obligatory practice.

That's all the correct advice in terms of the notes that a company has.

But if a company has no notes, then there's nothing to disclose. Realistically companies don't robustly record interviews, they don't accurately minute them. Primarily because it's more likely to burn them if they do - in the event of a dispute, any misspeak or ambiguous statement by an interviewer or note-taker will be picked apart and attacked, and the court will usually want to find in favour of the plaintiff.
Without notes it's your word against mine.

So it's not in a company's interests to fully and thoroughly document an interview, but rather to document the main points.

And there's definitely no obligation on a company to keep notes.

Obviously if it's a large company and they come to any hearing saying, "Nah, we don't take notes", they won't be believed; what kind of big company doesn't keep documentation?

But if it's a small company of 5 or 10 people and the MD does all the interviews, then not having any documentation will be less of a problem, because ultimately he is not obliged to have any.

skallywag

There tends to be a lot of misinformation out there concerning the fact that one can apparently not give a bad reference without leaving one open to legal action, etc.

This is absolutely not true. As an earlier poster pointed out, the last question that nearly inevitably comes when someone calls me is 'would you employ this person again?'. Giving a short 'No' to this is a clear way of saying that this employee is going to be trouble, keep away from them. If there are mitigating circumstances I will outline them, but if I give just a simple 'No' then the message is clear.

BarryD2

duffman13 wrote: »

This is one of those situations that need strong action from you. People suggesting the legal option are right in a perfect world but you are not going to get that employer in question to go on record to say he got a bad reference about you.

Either a phone call or a visit to senior management. Explain the situation, let them know you've a record of what's happened and if something further happens that you'll be going legal. This should nip it in the bud.

+1 Deal with it in person if at all possible first. Only resort to traps, recordings, emails, legal letters etc., if personal approach fails. But that's unlikely judging from the OP.

_Brian

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

I left a company over a year ago due to problems with my manager and his manager.

In the interim I worked temperory and am now happy in a new role.

Had a few interviews and informal meetings with similar employers over that time period and all offered me jobs.

However the director of one company did ring me to warn me that one of the guys I fell out with was giving me a bad reference. I had not offered him as a referee but it's a small country.

A second company who offered me a role then told me there could be problems as apparently their client were unhappy with me. Company believed they could easily put me in but I asked them to leave it. This client also deal a lot with my former employer.

I left on good terms with the rest of the company and would still be in contact with some directors. They ask me back every few months and I give a polite no.

I also do not bring up the fact that these 2 guys have since lost the entire team that I worked with. And the replacements want away too.

Should I let sleeping dogs lie?

It has cost me one good role.

Where does this thing of "you're not allowed give a bad reference" come from. Is it law?

I could write an email to the 2 copying in their director. A one liner

X and Y
A prospective employer has made me aware that one of you has given me a bad reference.
Please desist.
Regards
WB

So it’s ok to give a bad reference if they can back it up when questioned.

So for example if there is a paperwork trail through a disciplinary process etc then they are ok to give a truthful accurate reference.

So, you need to understand what exactly they are saying and if they can back that up, if they can then it’s best leave it as is.

If you really believe what they are saying isn’t true then maybe I’ve a solicitor send a letter asking them to stop.

Now, be clever. Make a gdpr request and see why they have on file. If they don’t produce documents that could back up their bad reference then you have them over a barrel.