NEW 2018 Assistant Principal Officer Competition

tigger123

Chimichangas wrote: »

No I dont agree. An interview is a differnt kettle of fish to an application form, and one doesnt necessarily follow the other. In fact its application form, then interview.
My understanding was that of course application forms were used to filter out applicants, as always...but this time it seems to be different. I will have to compare last and previous competitions specs with this one...

It IS a different process this time, thats what I'm saying. They're shortlisting after Stage 1 this time, whereas last time they didn't shortlist at all.

TaurenDruid

quad_red wrote: »

Maybe I didn’t articulate my point. It’s not about hours working but AOs in my Dept are clearly expected to work as long hours as APs.

So... the same hours as COs, EOs, and HEOs, then? 'Cos that's my experience across two decades worth of civil service. And if you put in the extra hours in a grade on flexi-time, you get them back.

Or lose them.

You're not giving hours back for free every month, are you? Because as you've seen, it counts for nothing.

FWIW, in my experience, I've seen some APs and POs and equivalent grades work very long hours. Some because they were really busy and/or dedicated, some because they were really inefficient, and for some a little of both...

WAW

Do all APs work long hours? I've no interest in working long hours as I feel one should be able to get the job done with the resources and effective management. But what is the reality for the civil service? Do APs typically have to work long hours? Is it frowned upon to generally just do your hours and only work extra ocasionally as necessitated by business needs? It's different if you're running your own business or salary bonus pay scheme.
I'm only recently an EO coming in on first point. It's a stepping stone and suits after a few years out of workforce. I've a master's, in my 40s and loads of experience ( above EO) but get zilch credit for any of it paywise because it's not civil service. I'm not questioning myself but the system sucks. It'll be interesting to see if I get through the shortlisting when it comes to regionals ( I had no contacts or anybody look over my form like some posters so hopefully it wasn't completely c#ap!)PAS looking for private sector candidates with masters and management experience from EO upwards and starting them on the first point has to be one the meanest and craziest parts of PAS and then an expectation of crazy hours on top of it at AP level.

quad_red

TaurenDruid wrote: »

So... the same hours as COs, EOs, and HEOs, then? 'Cos that's my experience across two decades worth of civil service. And if you put in the extra hours in a grade on flexi-time, you get them back.

Or lose them.

You're not giving hours back for free every month, are you? Because as you've seen, it counts for nothing.

FWIW, in my experience, I've seen some APs and POs and equivalent grades work very long hours. Some because they were really busy and/or dedicated, some because they were really inefficient, and for some a little of both...

I suppose I’m talking about output and responsiveness rather than just hours.

I respect your perspective - i’m just giving mine.

Anyway. Gotta consider options. Is it even worth an appeal I wonder?

eigrod

WAW wrote: »

Do all APs work long hours? I've no interest in working long hours as I feel one should be able to get the job done with the resources and effective management. But what is the reality for the civil service? Do APs typically have to work long hours? Is it frowned upon to generally just do your hours and only work extra ocasionally as necessitated by business needs? It's different if you're running your own business or salary bonus pay scheme.
I'm only recently an EO coming in on first point. It's a stepping stone and suits after a few years out of workforce. I've a master's, in my 40s and loads of experience ( above EO) but get zilch credit for any of it paywise because it's not civil service. I'm not questioning myself but the system sucks. It'll be interesting to see if I get through the shortlisting when it comes to regionals ( I had no contacts or anybody look over my form like some posters so hopefully it wasn't completely c#ap!)PAS looking for private sector candidates with masters and management experience from EO upwards and starting them on the first point has to be one the meanest and craziest parts of PAS and then an expectation of crazy hours on top of it at AP level.

The Minister for PER, not PAS, set the pay rates and the regulations around starting pay. See also the teachers dispute on starting pay currently prominent in the media.

Addle

Any AP I've ever worked under has always worked long hours.

Imagine working in whatever section of dept of education/opw that looks after buildings the last couple of weeks, or state exams during that court case over the recheck?!

It's a responsible time consuming job.

bobbysands81

Monkey5 wrote: »

If that is their idea of clear written communication then I understand why I was disappointed by my precis excercise marks in the 3rd sec competition.

I knew about the shortlisting though. It looks like they are trying to preference private sector people in this competition. In the civil service you only get AP level management experience once you've been an AP.

100% agree.

All HEOs and AOs should have automatically been shortlisted. AP is the next available promotion for HEOs and AOs so I find it highly unfair that they’re being prevented from going forward.

PhoenixParker

bobbysands81 wrote: »

100% agree.

All HEOs and AOs should have automatically been shortlisted. AP is the next available promotion for HEOs and AOs so I find it highly unfair that they’re being prevented from going forward.

Yup.
For the interd even if not the open.
Seems almost like a union issue.

duffman13

bobbysands81 wrote: »

100% agree.

All HEOs and AOs should have automatically been shortlisted. AP is the next available promotion for HEOs and AOs so I find it highly unfair that they’re being prevented from going forward.

Why? If they have zero leadership experience or failed to relate to the competencies then they shouldn't be shortlisted. If i work in a job in the private sector and my direct manager moves on, I dont get shortlisted based on my role. I get shortlisted based on ability and suitably for it which is all that's happening here.

AGC

duffman13 wrote: »

Why? If they have zero leadership experience or failed to relate to the competencies then they shouldn't be shortlisted. If i work in a job in the private sector and my direct manager moves on, I dont get shortlisted based on my role. I get shortlisted based on ability and suitably for it which is all that's happening here.

If you’re an AO straight in from college you could realistically never be in a leadership or manage staff. Going by the reasons some have not been brought forward it would mean no career progression for the graduate.

duffman13

AGC wrote: »

If you’re an AO straight in from college you could realistically never be in a leadership or manage staff. Going by the reasons some have not been brought forward it would mean no career progression for the graduate.

I see your point however someone straight from college, working as an AO and never managing people does not meet the competencies requested by PAS for AP. Again like any other industry you need to meet the minimum requirements. If you want to qualify for AP, you need to put yourself for secondment etc where you can add to your experience and thus meet the experience required for AP.

Just because you are an AO you don't get a right to go for promotion unless you meet the standards requested. That would/should be the case in both the public and private sectors.

AGC

duffman13 wrote: »

I see your point however someone straight from college, working as an AO and never managing people does not meet the competencies requested by PAS for AP. Again like any other industry you need to meet the minimum requirements. If you want to qualify for AP, you need to put yourself for secondment etc where you can add to your experience and thus meet the experience required for AP.

Just because you are an AO you don't get a right to go for promotion unless you meet the standards requested. That would/should be the case in both the public and private sectors.

Why bother going for AO so if there would be zero career prospect?

I have no doubt running a competition of this size is a pain in the a**e for PAS but I wouldn't be overly confident of how 900 odd application forms were analysed. Was there certain criteria that eliminated you/sent you forward straight away? Its safe to say it wasn't 1 person that did it so my interpretation of a candidates form could be very different to someone else's.

I presume people not brought forward have been eliminated from both open and interdepartmental?

AGC

duffman13 wrote: »

Why? If they have zero leadership experience or failed to relate to the competencies then they shouldn't be shortlisted. If i work in a job in the private sector and my direct manager moves on, I dont get shortlisted based on my role. I get shortlisted based on ability and suitably for it which is all that's happening here.

Yes based on your suitability and ability which in private sector can be seen by your boss or bosses. Unfortunately in CS you could be the most stand out candidate in your bosses eyes but you are at the mercy of aptitude tests and now shortlisting off an application form.

As said in other posts my concern, and certainly with an interdepartmental panel, is you can come in at an entry grade and then not be able to meet the competencies to get to the next grade, this is wrong.

When you enter as a CO you can go for EO which is a managerial position, will this now change?

Monkey5

duffman13 wrote: »

If i work in a job in the private sector and my direct manager moves on, I dont get shortlisted based on my role.

This doesn't happen in the public sector either. It is virtually impossible to take over your bosses job.

The reason people say this is because the position of AO especially doesn't allow you to gain management experience at the level of AP yet they have made this a requirment of the job.

By definition no civil servant below AP grade has the experience unless they have worked in the private sector at a more senior level before taking a backwards step into the civil service.

Addle

Is there any such thing as promotion by seniority anymore?

bobbysands81

Addle wrote: »

Is there any such thing as promotion by seniority anymore?

Nope, that’s loooooong gone.

RiseToMe

Relented and threw in am informal request for review following a reread of my application. Ironically, the area that let me down according to the feedback was noted by two current POs as a very strong section as an external candidate.

WAW

I agree with things being based on merit. I can appreciate though someone working as an AO for years chomping at the bit to get to AP. It would appear to be a big jump though so really AOs managers should be affording them the opportunity to grow and develop competencies in the job, like covering for more senior staff when on mat leave, holiday leave that kind of thing. I don't think an AO( or even a HEO )only a couple of years in the job ( eg fresh graduate) should automatically be shortlisted though I appreciate HEOs would by default have significant management experience.
But if a manager identified that some of their staff is demonstrating the ability to take on more responsibility and leadership, then that should count for something in terms of recommending them for shortlisting possibly..

Re pay rates, yep I know it's the minister sets them. I meant PAS as the figurehead of overall cs recruitment policies.

Re hours, as business needs necessitate working extra hours is grand as with any job at that level but as a matter of course, why should APs need to work longer hours? The money for fresh recruits is not high, there's no Flexi, what's the story? Is it only at PO level and above that the benefits of working in the cs pay off?!!

tigger123

I don't think that just because you're an AO or HEO that you should be automatically shortlisted.

And with the kind of candidate that they're looking for at AP level, I imagine PAS want to see someone at AO/HEO level who sought out further responsibilities and developed their own career to the point that they've developed themselves to the required level.

It's up to you to make that argument to PAS.

Just the way I interpret it.

tigger123

Double post.

bushcraft90

For anybody looking for a review you have to submit your review by close of business Monday November 5th for an informal review and Wednesday November 7th for a formal review.

s123maguire

I’m going to ask for a review, would informal or formal be a better option?

Sir Ophiuchus

s123maguire wrote: »

I’m going to ask for a review, would informal or formal be a better option?

I'd suggest going informal first; if you're unhappy with the results of the informal you can follow up with a formal request within two days of getting the informal response.

WAW wrote:

I don't think an AO( or even a HEO )only a couple of years in the job ( eg fresh graduate)

Just wanted to point out that the vast majority of AOs aren't new graduates any more. I'd say the average age in my cohort was 30, and we had former solicitors, union officials, teachers...

RiseToMe

Sir Ophiuchus wrote: »

I'd suggest going informal first; if you're unhappy with the results of the informal you can follow up with a formal request within two days of getting the informal response....

I had thought the same, however on reviewing the form it states:

"If you have already got feedback in relation your application, you should avail directly of the formal process"


In my initial email to request a review I had asked for a copy of any scorecard appended to my application and for all feedback from the board, however the reply was the feedback already recieved was the extent of the feedback (unsurprisingly). So I wonder does that constitute "feedback in relation to your application" and should we go to formal review..

Sir Ophiuchus

Up to you. You might do better going directly to formal in that case, if only because you've gotten all the feedback you're getting.

RiseToMe

Sir Ophiuchus wrote: »

Up to you. You might do better going directly to formal in that case, if only because you've gotten all the feedback you're getting.

Well the extent of the feedback was that which was in the "sorry you didnt make the cut" message online, which is the same format as everybody has gotten. So I wonder if anybody perusing a review should be opting for formal straight away.

Sir Ophiuchus

RiseToMe wrote: »

Well the extent of the feedback was that which was in the "sorry you didnt make the cut" message online, which is the same format as everybody has gotten. So I wonder if anybody perusing a review should be opting for formal straight away.

I was told:

PAS wrote:

Thank you for your email. The result of your informal review will issue in due course.

Yes after you are issued the result of your informal review, you will then have 2 days to go formal.

So I'm not stressed about it, though pretty sure the informal review won't change anything!

RiseToMe

Sir Ophiuchus wrote: »

I was told:



So I'm not stressed about it, though pretty sure the informal review won't change anything!

Oh not stressed! Just a little confused, I have both requests ready to go so I'll throw in the informal and have the formal ready to go. No doubt here that anything will change, thankfully I'm in a very comfortable position in terms of work and actually getting a position could serve to create more issues than it would solve. My main irritation is the reason for not being selected is, in my opinion and from serving POs, one of my strongest areas on the form.

Time will tell.

runawaybishop

AGC wrote: »

If you’re an AO straight in from college you could realistically never be in a leadership or manage staff. Going by the reasons some have not been brought forward it would mean no career progression for the graduate.

There are avenues to get leadership experience outside of work that you can take if you can't get it in work.

TaurenDruid

Addle wrote: »

Any AP I've ever worked under has always worked long hours.

Imagine working in whatever section of dept of education/opw that looks after buildings the last couple of weeks, or state exams during that court case over the recheck?!

It's a responsible time consuming job.

Absolutely. When the buck stops at your desk, and there's a crisis, then obviously you're going to have put in extra hours.

And as you can't solve everything or be everywhere yourself, you'll also have some of your EO and HEO admin staff involved. And as you need to be in the office, there'll also be Service Officers working extra hours. Admittedly all of them will be getting overtime, but they'll still be putting in the hours.