Downside of social welfare

paw patrol

Art McCarrick wrote: »

Yes, there are perceived issues with people staying on it too long, or 2nd and 3rd generations of claimants but it's not a big percentage. It's a visible one though and an easy target and often makes for good headlines.

?

that's where you are wrong kiddo :rolleyes:

Figures from 2013 - 1 in 7 on the dole have NEVER worked a day.
That's huge.

Now add in those that worked once but now are settled on the dole and it's a decent figure.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/one-in-seven-people-on-the-dole-has-never-worked-a-single-day-29278033.html

One in every seven people on the dole have never worked a single day in their lives, "disturbingly shocking" figures reveal.

The number of people confined to the 'dole for life' is highlighted in figures released by Social Protection Minister Joan Burton's department, which appear to vindicate her previous comments that to some people in Ireland, living on welfare benefits has become a "lifestyle choice".

Colm Keaveney, the rebel chairman of the Labour Party who obtained the figures, said it was startling how many people the system has "facilitated" in not making any contribution to the State. "It's about social justice, plain and simple, and these disturbingly shocking figures require a full investigation," he said.

The statistics, broken down by age and by region, show, for the first time, the extent of people who have been totally reliant on Jobseeker's Benefit to survive throughout their adult life, without making any contribution whatsoever by way of PRSI payments.


Many people mistakenly refer to the Live Register figures as a measure of unemployment, which currently stands at 426,900 people. However, according to the real unemployed figures, contained in the CSO Quarterly National Household Survey, the number of unemployed persons is 294,600.

As these figures reveal, 43,375 people, or one in seven of those in receipt of the €188-a-week Jobseeker's Benefit, have never made any contribution to the PRSI system, in other words, they have never been in employment.

Of those, one in three, or 13,222, are aged 35 or older, which makes them far more likely to have children, which Mr Keaveney said is an intolerable situation. "Based on the figures, there is a strong possibility of children growing up with parents who have never contributed to the State."

The numbers also show that there are more than 2,677 people aged between 60 and 65 who have never made any PRSI contribution.

Mr Keaveney also said the figures show the extent to which the black economy in certain counties has been allowed to flourish, which causes those on low incomes to pay the price. "Figures like this cut to the core and place the country's social cohesion at risk. Everyone who is in a position to make a contribution must do so," he said.

PRSI must be paid by all employees, whether full-time or part-time, and self-employed people with a minimum annual income who are aged 16 or over.

The revelations follow on from reports two weeks ago that one in three people offered a place on the State's back-to-work scheme failed to show up for interview and one-third of those who repeatedly failed to show up were hit with benefit penalties. By the end of 2012, 1,807 people had had their welfare benefits cut.

At its most extreme, jobseekers have seen their €188 weekly payment reduced by 25 per cent – or €44 – for failing to engage with officials.

professore

fryup wrote: »

a lot these positions are specialist IT & Pharmaceutical and the like, that not many have the qualifications for...they end up going to migrants

That's a load of rubbish. Plenty of low skilled jobs out there. My daughter has had several that she found off her own bat.

Also we are ridiculously educated in this country. If these jobs are all being filled by migrants - again false in my experience and I work in IT and deal with sorts of big pharma and engineering companies and most of the employees are Irish and doing world beating stuff.

And I've been on the dole in the past and my father has too so not talking out to my ass. It's easy to find a job now.

Ronaldinho

It should be counter-cyclical. Able bodied welfare recipients should get SFA imho with the economy the way it is at present. If and when a recession hits and people fall upon hard times through no fault of their own, it should be more generous.

fryup

redshoes15 wrote: »

Collecting money in the post office, as someone said before me, just felt wrong. Like I hadn’t earned it, it wasn’t mine and I was taking from others.

you've paid you're PRSI, you've earned it

redshoes15 wrote: »

A queue of 50 people behind me listening to the post office worker count out exactly €188.

i wouldn't worry, they were probably queuing for the dole as well

soups05

soups05 wrote: »

the downside? where to start, I had two jobs during the boom, factory during week, shop at weekends, only way to make ends meet cos i had 4 kids and a mortgage.

Recession hit and factory job gone, got redundancy so a bit of cash to keep us going. job in shop increased to 4 days p/w and everything fine i guess.

then job in shop started going bad, no money around so people started going to aldi/lidl. hours cut to two days per week and had to sign on. tis ok, only temp i thought. did a forklift course to renew my licence, but never got the licence cos the fas scandal hit. could not find a factory job anywhere.

decided to go back to education so started college, savings completely gone at this point, had to come to an arrangement with bank but kept head above water.

shop closed so i was able to concentrate on college, not much of a drop in money as i was only claiming for wife and myself by now. that was 2015.

got assaulted in 2017, broken jaw, missed some college and struggled to get back to speed, suddenly am depressed, have anxiety and can barely leave the house, but what ya gonna do? i needed the degree so ploughed on.

graduated this year. got my 2.1 in IT, started the job hunt...this is great, hundreds of jobs in the section that i am qualified for..yes.

been 3 months now, applying for anything i think i have a chance at, even those which ask for 2/3 years experience.

one interview......did not get job.

college buddy and i applied for same post, he had a 2.2 and i had a 2.1, he got an interview, not me.
why? can't say, only difference between us is am 47 and he is 24. that is clear from our CV.

so now what? do i keep chasing the IT job, go back to get my hon degree or just throw away the last 5 years of effort and try to get a job in factory/shop.

meanwhile, i sit at home, spend most of morning searching job sites, browse some boards/youtube/reddit. do some gardening, walk the dog, watch some tv, wait to die, try to work up the nerve to go outside without being terrified that i will meet the scum who attacked me or their friends. I have no life, no savings, no future. two of kids are employed in great jobs, they help out with money but i feel like a leech. my friends were all work based, i don't see them anymore. I sit here and wallow in the cesspit of my own mind and wonder how will i ever drag myself out of the debt am in.

one day the bank will want full payment again, then i guess am off to sleep in garda station, no newspaper for me and wife though, cos our kids are grown and successful.

I really wish i had not worked all those years, i would have been better off living off the state, getting a council house and staying there, not trying to make life better by buying a private house, but it was how i was raised, you work for a living, i was never prepared for sitting idle, never prepared for how much of my self worth was tied to being a provider, a wage earner. I am not cut out for sitting around spending other people's money. At first i was happy cos i had spent 25 years working for everything i had, so the dole was a safety net that i had earned.

now? i am pretty sure i have taken out more than i put in, way more than i deserve and more than i can ever pay back.

and the job? do not know if that will ever happen now. am old, too old for employers it seems, and am beaten down, crushed by the weight of the self loathing i feel.

fk the dole, fk the system that rewards those who don't want to work, most importantly, fk me for spending my entire life working towards being a failure.

PM your CV if you'd like. I work for a large multi-national IT company that is always hiring graduates for tons of different roles.

demanufactured

[Deleted User] wrote: »

PM your CV if you'd like. I work for a large multi-national IT company that is always hiring graduates for tons of different roles.

Fair play to you.
I was in this posters position at one time and got a job in IT in 2013 that due to something like the above, I'm still with the same company now, and have moved into a more senior position.
Sometimes speaking to the right person at the right time is key.

Pkiernan

Tracksuit bottoms tucked in to white socks is a major downside

wally1990

na1 wrote: »

Another example:

I pay substantial amount of income taxes and have no Medical/GP card.

I have to pay for every GP visit, so think twice about going to GP, as:
1)it cost me some money
2)I have to take time off work
3)My employer wouldn't like me being absent too often.

The person on a JA does not contribute a penny towards HSE budget,
though he/she pays next to nothing for GP visit,
can afford to visit GP any time without taking time off
Can afford to visit GP on any occasion.

I wonder if there is a statistics on how often each individual on Medical Card does attend GP, and compare this stats to people without Medical Card?

I actually asked my Gp this and whilst she didn’t have exact figures she said easily 8 out 10 people are card holders and it’s always the same people with minor issues to keep coming back

auspicious

A house down the road in a housing estate has a 2 to 3 month old kitten locked in the boiler house outside by itself with no water or food, in darkness.
It is constantly crying ( not in a nice way) and scratching to get out. Many neighbours are commenting.
I haven't seen it myself. One neighbour called to door pretending she had lost her cat and asked the man of the house to open the boiler. He did so but quickly snapped the doors shut after proving it was not the lady's cat.
Disturbed by the interaction, the concerned lady went in to the local ISPCA here in the midlands to report the issue.
Quote " What do you want us to do about it?" was the association representative's reply. Quite shocking coming from a body designed to provide and most likely encourage positive animal welfare practices.

What should be done? Should the guards be notified about the distressed kitten?

POSTED IN WRONG THREAD ****

vectorvictor

auspicious wrote: »

What should be done? Should the guards be notified about the distressed kitten?

Is the kitten on job seekers allowance or benefit?

pillphil

vectorvictor wrote: »

Is the kitten on job seekers allowance or benefit?

Allowance obviously, wouldn't have the contributions for benefit

the_syco

Downside of social welfare

Once you in, it's hard to get out. If you get a monthly paying job, you'll also be a month without SW. And if living hand to mouth this may not be something that you can do.

Sweet.Science wrote: »

Im surprised couples working and renting dont just quit their jobs when they have kids . Jump on the gravy train

Actually, it's often the case that one of their paychecks will go only to childcare. Sometimes one partner will quit their job, as it works out as being better financially.

soups05 wrote: »

graduated this year. got my 2.1 in IT, started the job hunt...this is great, hundreds of jobs in the section that i am qualified for..yes.

...

so now what? do i keep chasing the IT job, go back to get my hon degree or just throw away the last 5 years of effort and try to get a job in factory/shop.

Get into a 1st level tech support job, and after a year there, upgrade to a better job. Are you anywhere near Dublin?

Greentopia wrote: »

a supportive partner

This. Was on the dole before, and my mam and dad pushing me to apply for jobs, improve my education helped push me to get back working.

soups05

the syco, been applying for 1st lvl tech support as a foot in door approach. I don't expect to start high up lol, start at bottom and work my ass off to climb ladder is the plan.

sadly no one is interested. not in Dublin but applying there as jobs are mostly in Dublin.

looking back on my post am kinda embarrassed as how whiny i come across, too late to scrap it as its been quoted in full lol.

many thanks to those who expressed support, its welcome at this point.

WhiteMemento9

Nothing would see me happier than witnessing the social decay that would happen without social welfare. All those idiots in ivory towers who make blanket statements about cutting the payments or making it harder to obtain living in a bubble in which the feel jilted by having to work for a living to support themselves. The anarchy that would rein without it is something that doesn't even seem to cross these peoples tiny minds. Karl Marx in his musings about the fall of capitalism did far more harm than good in terms of giving information to the wrong side on how to make all this **** work.

the_syco

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

The anarchy that would rein

Lots of overtime for the Gardai, as the funds would be there for the overtime.

I'd say Spike Island would be very quickly reopened.

monkeysnapper

I had a pretty good job in 2011 when I realised I was about to be made redundant ... I was so peed off ...we had only just had our first child at time and for the first time in my whole life I was about to be on dole .

Like how unfair was that!!!!

Anyway I decided I would give my cv out to loads of jobs straight into the hands of the bosses/ managers and went online and sent cvs into company's.

In meantime I decided I'd do all them jobs we were planning paying someone for ie painting house, landscaping garden.

2 weeks into unemployment I got a job interview and got job. ... wwhhhhhoooo the fecking house was a right state tho from the painting I'd started but hadn't finished ...the bloody wife only left me and took daughter.

I'm only kidding.. she didn't leave me reallt ... but who'd blame her if she did, smug bastard !!!!

take everything

Sonics2k wrote: »

I was on the dole a few years after the recession.

I went from having a pretty well paid and comfortable job, was able to easily pay my bills and rent and raise my kids.

Recession happened, lost my job, partner eventually left me due to a mixture of stress and being a cheating twat, took the kids to the other side of the country.

Bills piled up, I had to move back into the family home until I was finally able to find a stable job and get a new apartment.

People love to go on and on about the 'easy life' on the dole, but after bills and so on I had about €15 a week so it was impossible to save up any sort of cash to move out.

Hi Sonics.
How did you got the dole while living in the family home.

take everything

take everything wrote: »

Hi Sonics.
How did you got the dole while living in the family home.

Once your over 25, there's no means test

El Weirdo

Deleted User wrote: »

Once your over 25, there's no means test

Of course there's a means test if you're over 25.

If you are under 25 and living with your parents, there is an additional assessment you go through.

Turnipman

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

Nothing would see me happier than witnessing the social decay that would happen without social welfare. All those idiots in ivory towers who make blanket statements about cutting the payments or making it harder to obtain living in a bubble in which the feel jilted by having to work for a living to support themselves. The anarchy that would rein without it is something that doesn't even seem to cross these peoples tiny minds. Karl Marx in his musings about the fall of capitalism did far more harm than good in terms of giving information to the wrong side on how to make all this **** work.

My landlord recently kicked me out of my ivory tower and I'm looking for another one. Would you happen to know where I can find one, as I find that my sermons just don't sound as authentic when delivered on the front steps of a semi-detached 3 bed in deepest Ongar.

(By the way it's "reign" not "rein"!)

fryup

fryup wrote: »

a lot these positions are specialist IT & Pharmaceutical and the like, that not many have the qualifications for...they end up going to migrants

professore wrote: »

That's a load of rubbish. Plenty of low skilled jobs out there. My daughter has had several that she found off her own bat.

Also we are ridiculously educated in this country. If these jobs are all being filled by migrants - again false in my experience and I work in IT and deal with sorts of big pharma and engineering companies and most of the employees are Irish and doing world beating stuff.

I'm talking about those big job announcements made by the government about some multi-national opening a factory down the country somewhere, these take 2-3 years to build..and a lot of them are highly skilled jobs for 3rd level graduates in which a significant number are taken by immigrants.

As for low skilled jobs yes they are plenty out there but.. these are usually low paid and not everyone can afford to give up there rent allowance and free medical for them.

LirW

professore wrote: »

That's a load of rubbish. Plenty of low skilled jobs out there. My daughter has had several that she found off her own bat.

It's a real pain though when you wanna get your foot into some sort of field you have 3rd level education for like the guy who's in his 40s and upskilled to IT.
He's overqualified for minimum wage jobs and wouldn't progress anywhere when he's stacking shelves in Dunnes, yet he has no actual experience in the field he studied for and is looking for ages to find someone who wants to give him a job to gain said experience.

My partner works in IT too and he was out of work for a while and claiming the dole for a few weeks, he had a few interviews but he was too experienced for entry level roles for the young mid-20s fresh from college, yet he had too little experience for the more advanced roles and it was incredibly frustrating. He eventually found a job in his field, but it simply took a while.

take everything

Deleted User wrote: »

Once your over 25, there's no means test

That's not true surely

Faith+1

take everything wrote: »

That's not true surely

It is true.

El Weirdo

take everything wrote: »

That's not true surely

Faith+1 wrote: »

It is true.

No it isn't.

.......

El Weirdo wrote: »

No it isn't.

Instead of back and forthing with "Its is true", "It isnt true", it would be useful if people qualified what they are saying.

The post that triggered the back and forth referred to "the dole". It could have meant either Jobseekers Benefit or Jobseekers Allowance.

Jobseekers Benefit is not means tested at all and lasts about 9 months - no matter where you live or what your means are so long as you have suffered a loss of employment and your PRSI contributions are paid up.

Jobseekers Allowance is a means tested payment. The income of your partner or spouse is taken into account as means. If you are under 25 and live in your parents home, some of the income of your parents will be taken into account as means. Other elements may make up means (assets, savings etc..).

BrokenArrows

There is a massive different between someone who has never worked, claims all the benefits and is happy in that situation compared to someone who has paid their way their whole life and falls on hard times.

The former are content living on the bare minimum and achieving nothing in life.

The latter have fallen on hard times and going from earning maybe 3k+ per month and their lifestyle adjusted to it and suddenly being on the dole is pretty rough, both financially and emotionally.

Im currently earning a decent amount of money and managing to save a good bit per month, however if i lost my job those savings would quickly disappear in order to keep up my mortgage payments and other bills.

fryup

BrokenArrows wrote: »

The former are content living on the bare minimum and achieving nothing in life.

and lets face it, there are a significant percentage out there who like the easy life, filling their day by going down to the bookies, watchin a bit of telly, taking the dog for walk, havin a coffee in the local cafe whatever just quietly tippin away passing the time....i'm not condemning them mind, but with the SW system the way it is in this country its very easy to lead that type of lifestyle

*correct me if i'm wrong in the UK they only get 50-60 quid a week

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Once your over 25, there's no means test

take everything wrote: »

That's not true surely

Faith+1 wrote: »

It is true.

El Weirdo wrote: »

No it isn't.

....... wrote: »

Instead of back and forthing with "Its is true", "It isnt true", it would be useful if people qualified what they are saying.

The post that triggered the back and forth referred to "the dole". It could have meant either Jobseekers Benefit or Jobseekers Allowance.

Jobseekers Benefit is not means tested at all and lasts about 9 months - no matter where you live or what your means are so long as you have suffered a loss of employment and your PRSI contributions are paid up.

Jobseekers Allowance is a means tested payment. The income of your partner or spouse is taken into account as means. If you are under 25 and live in your parents home, some of the income of your parents will be taken into account as means. Other elements may make up means (assets, savings etc..).

Okay. I was over 25. I lived at home with my parents. I was not required to get my parents or anyone else means tested. If I was under 25, my parents would have to be means tested. This is what I was told at the time (6 or so years ago). Pretty sure it was Job Seekers Allowance. I was given the flat 188 per month.

mariaalice

Just musing on this why has ruminating and obsessing about social welfare and to a lesser extent the 'loony left' become a coping mechanism for so many people.

BrokenArrows

fryup wrote: »

and lets face it, there are a significant percentage out there who like the easy life, filling their day by going down to the bookies, watchin a bit of telly, taking the dog for walk, havin a coffee in the local cafe whatever just quietly tippin away passing the time....i'm not condemning them mind, but with the SW system the way it is in this country its very easy to lead that type of lifestyle

*correct me if i'm wrong in the UK they only get 50-60 quid a week

The basic yes is pretty low but there is a tone of other benefits you can claim.

A few years back as a thought exercise i worked out how much i would have gotten as a single male who lost his job. I think i worked out i was entitled to around £800 per month in a range of benefits. Job seekers, rent allowance, council tax discount etc etc.

Also i found out recently there is no earning limit here for getting a council house. It will just take longer to get one. So if i applied for a council house when i first moved to London (as an irish citizen i could have) then the chances are now i could have gotten one. I live in an area where there is a large number of council houses and my neighbours earn something similar to me and still have a council property. Its a bit unfair i think.

Graces7

mariaalice wrote: »

Just musing on this why has ruminating and obsessing about social welfare and to a lesser extent the 'loony left' become a coping mechanism for so many people.

no idea but I suppose it is less.. harmful... than other ways of coping

what really really irks me though is when folk here yell about giving the unemployed food stamps etc.go on; humiliate them.. kick them when they are down... a terrible attitude ... or that the able bodies should get SFA.. next they will be demanding we bring back the workhouses

suicide_circus

Graces7 wrote: »

next they will be demanding we bring back the workhouses

I'd be happy if they just worked for their houses

Graces7

suicide_circus wrote: »

I'd be happy if they just worked for their houses

see what I mean? Everyone needs a roof over their head and depriving anyone of that is wrong.

oceanman

suicide_circus wrote: »

I'd be happy if they just worked for their houses

not everybody is going to be able to afford a house, even those working. that's the reality of the new Ireland we live in today..

Graces7

the downside of SW is the attitudes and accusations of others.

knipex

Graces7 wrote: »

no idea but I suppose it is less.. harmful... than other ways of coping

what really really irks me though is when folk here yell about giving the unemployed food stamps etc.go on; humiliate them.. kick them when they are down... a terrible attitude ... or that the able bodies should get SFA.. next they will be demanding we bring back the workhouses

Its not about kicking anyone, nor is it about bringing back workhouses. etc.

Social welfare was initially a safety net. to prevent people starving to death or ending up in a workhouse, to ensure that children had a chance to live and have a future.

It has evolved way beyond that to become something that is evaluated on the basis of being an income, on which to live long term and on which to raise a family.

I have absolutely no problem paying taxes to provide services or to help those in trouble, someone who has lost their job, a family going through a bit of bother, supporting those with disabilities etc. I don't think anyone does.

However in Ireland we appear to (virtually uniquely) provide a long term (read indefinite) source of income to virtually anyone. It has become an automatic right not a privilege given by society. Any attempt to make a person justify their continued access to social welfare, be it by forcing them to attend training, or even taking the option of low paid employment is a form of abuse.

Jobs bridge was abused and I will not for 1 second stand over what it became BUT it was a good idea implemented badly. However hearing it described as slave labor, As €50 for working made my blood boil. It wasn't slave labor, the person was getting paid and it wasn't €50 it was a social welfare unit plus €50 or €243 per week to get some experience in a role.

I have no problem paying taxes for healthcare, I have no issue with making a co-payment as I can afford it. I don't even have an issue with paying to help others get cheaper healthcare. But again this has expanded way beyond what it was ever supposed to be. Nearly 50% of the population have a medical card and make no payment, to see a doctor. None. Not even a €5, make no payment for hospital, and balk at making a small contribution to prescription charges (a tiny co payment that actually vastly reduced the number of drugs prescribed).

But then I pay my taxes, have to pay full charge for GP and prescription, hospital charges etc etc. I scrimp and scrape to save enough for health insurance for me and my family and get looked at as an abuser who jumps queues.

I go to A&E and an admitted my insurance company is charged thousands. If I refuse to go private I pay €85, someone on a medical card pays nothing. We all lie in the same trolley or same beds in the same A&E but Im the scum bag for refusing to allow my insurance get charged for a private room that I wont get..

I have no problem helping anyone.

But at some point social welfare became an automatic right or entitlement that society owes everyone. What was forgotten was the other side, with rights come responsibilities.

I am not for one second saying that everyone on social welfare is a sponger or making a choice.

I was on social welfare and depended on it to put food on the table. I had a medical card because I need it. I was damn thankful to have it when it needed it but I never saw it as anything other than a temporary safety net and always felt that it was my obligation to get off it as soon as I possibly could.

take everything

....... wrote: »

Instead of back and forthing with "Its is true", "It isnt true", it would be useful if people qualified what they are saying.

The post that triggered the back and forth referred to "the dole". It could have meant either Jobseekers Benefit or Jobseekers Allowance.

Jobseekers Benefit is not means tested at all and lasts about 9 months - no matter where you live or what your means are so long as you have suffered a loss of employment and your PRSI contributions are paid up.

Jobseekers Allowance is a means tested payment. The income of your partner or spouse is taken into account as means. If you are under 25 and live in your parents home, some of the income of your parents will be taken into account as means. Other elements may make up means (assets, savings etc..).

Thanks.
Seems to have cleared that up.
Was actually unaware of that when I claimed before.

suicide_circus

Graces7 wrote: »

see what I mean? Everyone needs a roof over their head and depriving anyone of that is wrong.

I don't want to deprive anyone of anything. but a roof over your head does not necessarily mean a free house in an area of your choosing. It is said that God helps those who help themselves, perhaps the state should take the same attitude.

Graces7

suicide_circus wrote: »

I don't want to deprive anyone of anything. but a roof over your head does not necessarily mean a free house in an area of your choosing. It is said that God helps those who help themselves, perhaps the state should take the same attitude.

oh dear; same old routine, same old intolerance . their attitude is far preferable to yours, frankly. a least is has some humanity. some realism.

and why not in an area of your choosing? No one in a true welfare state is a beggar or has all freedom of choice taken away. all are equal in need and yes in rights. of course many pay little for their housing and that is out of welfare money. No free; we all pay and that is how a welfare state works. Not with judgmental begrudgery. the way Margaret Cash s being treated on boards is s sheer disgrace.

over and out from here.

knipex

Graces7 wrote: »

oh dear; same old routine, same old intolerance . their attitude is far preferable to yours, frankly. a least is has some humanity. some realism.

and why not in an area of your choosing? No one in a true welfare state is a beggar or has all freedom of choice taken away. all are equal in need and yes in rights. of course many pay little for their housing and that is out of welfare money. No free; we all pay and that is how a welfare state works. Not with judgmental begrudgery. the way Margaret Cash s being treated on boards is s sheer disgrace.

over and out from here.

That's the point. Who asked us, the citizens, the tax payers if we want a "true welfare state" as per you definition. I think that you would find the vast majority don't. I personally wouldn't.

With you its all about rights and entitlements but nothing about obligations. No one minds helping someone out or supporting those with genuine disabilities but not the society you want. As I said in my previous post all rights come with obligations.

Let the state provide subsided housing by all means. Let the state provide emergency accommodation but when you see recipients of state funded support are getting better options and better support than those paying for it then there is a problem..

Hundreds of thousands of people would love to own homes in various areas, some for family and social support reasons, some through aspiration and ambition, some for convenience but for economic reasons they cannot afford to purchase a home in these areas. The end up purchasing in an area where they can afford to live and then work hard to pay a mortgage.

I moved 110km from my family, My wife moved 160km, both for economic reasons, for work. We bought out house over 10 miles from the area in which we had been renting. Further from our places of work and our social group because it was where we could affoard. And we work hard to pay the mortgage every month, and to give our kids the best start in life we can.

Graces7

knipex wrote: »

That's the point. Who asked us, the citizens, the tax payers if we want a "true welfare state" as per you definition. I think that you would find the vast majority don't. I personally wouldn't.

With you its all about rights and entitlements but nothing about obligations. No one minds helping someone out or supporting those with genuine disabilities but not the society you want. As I said in my previous post all rights come with obligations.

Let the state provide subsided housing by all means. Let the state provide emergency accommodation but when you see recipients of state funded support are getting better options and better support than those paying for it then there is a problem..

Hundreds of thousands of people would love to own homes in various areas, some for family and social support reasons, some through aspiration and ambition, some for convenience but for economic reasons they cannot afford to purchase a home in these areas. The end up purchasing in an area where they can afford to live and then work hard to pay a mortgage.

I moved 110km from my family, My wife moved 160km, both for economic reasons, for work. We bought out house over 10 miles from the area in which we had been renting. Further from our places of work and our social group because it was where we could affoard. And we work hard to pay the mortgage every month, and to give our kids the best start in life we can.

You did and do wonderfully but not everyone has the grit and gumption to do that.Oh and re your first para, this IS ireland and IS a welfare state. period

not sure re your meanin re what I have bolded? And again, this IS the welfare state option. We who live in subsidies housing are not lesser citizens bowing and scraping in gratitude... we are equal with you and we have needs that should be respected.. subsidised housing is available in all areas so why not choose? to be near family,?fine?

Doctor Jimbob

To those who keep bringing up their taxes on threads like this, I'm curious: do you actually think you'd get that money back or something if the government decided tomorrow to cut welfare payments? There are worse things tax money could be going on than ensuring the majority of people in the country have at least a decent standard of living. Sure some people are taking advantage of it, but no matter what kind of system you have set up, some people are going to find a way to take advantage. And before anyone asks, no, I'm not on welfare.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Social welfare destroys initiative. People may think they're benefiting by getting a "free" income and a "free" house at the taxpayer's expense, but long-term social welfare dependency just erodes incentives to work hard and try to achieve something in life. That's the real downside.

PlaneSpeeking

Graces7 wrote: »

the downside of SW is the attitudes and accusations of others.

I imagine the thousands of unearned euros each month takes the edge off.

whisky_galore

It's bred an underclass over the years who have no interest in doing anything to contribute to society or better themselves. Including travellers in this.

LirW

Graces7 wrote: »

oh dear; same old routine, same old intolerance . their attitude is far preferable to yours, frankly. a least is has some humanity. some realism.

and why not in an area of your choosing? No one in a true welfare state is a beggar or has all freedom of choice taken away. all are equal in need and yes in rights. of course many pay little for their housing and that is out of welfare money. No free; we all pay and that is how a welfare state works. Not with judgmental begrudgery. the way Margaret Cash s being treated on boards is s sheer disgrace.

over and out from here.

I understand where the frustration is coming from though.
I live in a small rural council estate, some houses including ours are privately owned, some are council houses. Two houses are split into apartments and one of them is now empty and done up by the council. The flat got offered to a girl I happen to know, a really nice girl actually, she is a single mother of two sons.
The flat is done to some really nice standard and got new windows, doors, kitchen.
Now the thing is, she is happy to finally got a place offered but she was a bit disappointed that it doesn't get a house. She thinks the place is too small for the long-term and gave out about a few other things. Now knowing her background, coming from a poor rural working class family and got pregnant as a teenager, she doesn't know better. She doesn't know how it works for others who work and earn their money. She fell into the net of social welfare as a teenager by getting pregnant early and then the second relationship broke down too because he turned out to be an awful being.
The point is though that opposed to people on welfare people who rent or own a home get no vouchers for kitting out a place. They don't get new windows or a new kitchen. We'd really need to replace our windows but it costs too much.
We are over the threshold for getting a GP visit card. We don't have much but and can't afford health insurance but then again have too much to get any support. There's a low income family living here on the street too, they qualify for a few benefits though and they have roughly the same amount of disposable income after benefits as we do but they get allowances and a medical card and that's some pressure of your chest.

It simply leaves a bitter taste that we had to move 90km away from work because we couldn't afford to live in Dublin, yet people turn houses in Ashbourne down because it's inconvenient for them and the kids go to school in Kilbarrack.

I'm aware that the majority of people in social housing aren't sponges and really nice, hard-working people, but I do believe that especially the housing system is flawed. Back home, if you're earning over a quite generous threshold when you get re-assessed for a new lease for the council flat, they won't give you another lease. Housing stock isn't sold off. It's an old system that was bang on time's needs 35 years ago but times have certainly changed.

I'm really all in favour helping people that need help and keeping the small percentage of people entertained that aren't capable of holding a job (you get that in every country), but I believe that the system would do well with an overhaul and some tweaking and stricter housing rules.

oceanman

Graces7 wrote: »

the downside of SW is the attitudes and accusations of others.

especially here on boards, they love a good dole bashing thread. gives the so called squeezed middle a chance a chance to vent their anger :rolleyes:

Idbatterim

oceanman wrote: »

especially here on boards, they love a good dole bashing thread. gives the so called squeezed middle a chance a chance to vent their anger :rolleyes:

Hard workers are enduring reduced living standards thanks to the off the wall welfare system. That’s the reality...

PlaneSpeeking

Idbatterim wrote: »

Hard workers are enduring reduced living standards thanks to the off the wall welfare system. That’s the reality...

"So called" squeezed middle - love in when the ire is directed at hard working people and not the entitled scroungers.