Downside of social welfare

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

oceanman wrote: »

especially here on boards, they love a good dole bashing thread. gives the so called squeezed middle a chance a chance to vent their anger :rolleyes:

The "so called squeezed middle."

Are you saying that they're not really squeezed?

Doctor Jimbob

Idbatterim wrote: »

Hard workers are enduring reduced living standards thanks to the off the wall welfare system. That’s the reality...

Do you genuinely believe workers would be better off if massive welfare cuts occurred? Personally I think it's much more likely any money saved would just be wasted elsewhere.

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

"So called" squeezed middle - love in when the ire is directed at hard working people and not the entitled scroungers.

The ire is directed at relatively well off people sneering at those on welfare.

PlaneSpeeking

Clyde Narrow Playboy wrote: »

The "so called squeezed middle."

Are you saying that they're not really squeezed?

Apparently we're living high on the hog, you know with the taxes; rent; bills; GP visits; PRSI for nothing; USC; everything that Cash wagon and her ilk get for free.

But yeah, we're not really squeezed. Class bias that from the Voluntary Leisure Class and their elected (God knows how) representatives.

PlaneSpeeking

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Do you genuinely believe workers would be better off if massive welfare cuts occurred? Personally I think it's much more likely any money saved would just be wasted elsewhere.



The ire is directed at relatively well off people sneering at those on welfare.

Get off the stage eh ?

Do you know what the concept of "disposable income" is ??

It's what the majority of people putting in a good 60 hours including commute from several counties away DON'T have.

"Relatively well off", bloody idiotic that.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Personally I think it's much more likely any money saved would just be wasted elsewhere.

In that case, would you agree that we need a far-ranging review of all government spending to eliminate more of this waste?

Doctor Jimbob

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Get off the stage eh ?

Do you know what the concept of "disposable income" is ??

It's what the majority of people putting in a good 60 hours including commute from several counties away DON'T have.

"Relatively well off", bloody idiotic that.

Do you know what the word "relatively" means?

What does people's employers not paying their staff enough to live a better life have to do with people on welfare anyway?

Doctor Jimbob

Clyde Narrow Playboy wrote: »

In that case, would you agree that we need a far-ranging review of all government spending to eliminate more of this waste?

Absolutely. The only issue I have is that the first target for a lot of people seems to be those on welfare. It seems like picking on an easy target.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

"Relatively well off", bloody idiotic that.

The problem is with defining "well off" as someone earning €45k before taxes.

Grayson

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Apparently we're living high on the hog, you know with the taxes; rent; bills; GP visits; PRSI for nothing; USC; everything that Cash wagon and her ilk get for free.

But yeah, we're not really squeezed. Class bias that from the Voluntary Leisure Class and their elected (God knows how) representatives.

We are having a great life. I get taxed loads and I'm still so much better off than when I was on the dole. If the dole is so great, then why don't people quit their jobs and go on it.

People do realise that welfare fraud is a tiny amount? And even long term unemployed is a tiny amount?

Bankers, property speculators and corporations not paying tax have cost this country far more. Hell, apples avoided tax, by itself, dwarfs the social welfare bill. Yet people get their knickers in a twist over some people on the dole.

PlaneSpeeking

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Do you know what the word "relatively" means?

What does people's employers not paying their staff enough to live a better life have to do with people on welfare anyway?

Oddly enough yes, I know lots of words.

"Relatively" chief among them.

Have you seen the current Social Welfare rates ?

Compared to my take home salary, recipients of same are RELATIVELY more well off than I.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Absolutely. The only issue I have is that the first target for a lot of people seems to be those on welfare. It seems like picking on an easy target.

Fair enough.

Personally, I believe that public sector entitlement is a much bigger problem than welfare entitlement.

demanufactured

I was in the SW office yesterday for the first time since 2013, to apply for a public services card.

The depressing feeling about the place is still there when you walk through the door.

Doctor Jimbob

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Oddly enough yes, I know lots of words.

"Relatively" chief among them.

Have you seen the current Social Welfare rates ?

Compared to my take home salary, recipients of same are RELATIVELY more well off than I.

Around 195 per week I believe.

How exactly can your take home pay be less than that?

PlaneSpeeking

Clyde Narrow Playboy wrote: »

The problem is with defining "well off" as someone earning €45k before taxes.

Which is bloody hilarious.

Not that they will but I would like to SW defenders to look at the current welfare rates and realise just how much is given to recipients, and what freebies they get with them.

None of which go to the majority of taxpayers.

So you have a person not working receiving MORE than someone working - and yet from the latter's money, everything must be covered.

There's little worse than try to get home at the start of a 2 hour commute, and the train is packed with the non-workers and their kids coming back (on their FTPs) from the Zoo or other fun day out.

Defend them all you like but it's not right.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Grayson wrote: »

People do realise that welfare fraud is a tiny amount?

The amount of detected fraud is a tiny amount. Many people successfully fiddle the system for years without getting caught.

Bankers, property speculators and corporations...

...always have to be brought up to deflect from the subject at hand.

PlaneSpeeking

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Around 195 per week I believe.

How exactly can your take home pay be less than that?

Yeah because the only payment is the dole. There's none so blind......

https://m.welfare.ie/en/Pages/bud18s1.aspx

PlaneSpeeking

Clyde Narrow Playboy wrote: »

The amount of detected fraud is a tiny amount. Many people successfully fiddle the system for years without getting caught.



...always have to be brought up to deflect from the subject at hand.

EVERY bloody time!!!

"Der bankers....", change the bleeding record.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

EVERY bloody time!!!

"Der bankers....", change the bleeding record.

Never going to happen, as long as "de bankers" can be used to deflect attention from the welfare culture.

We have 225,000 on the Live Register at a time when Ireland is the fastest growing economy in Europe for the fourth year running. From the construction industry to the hotel sector, employers are complaining about shortages of staff. And yet we're expected to believe that 225,000 people can't find jobs?

Doctor Jimbob

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Yeah because the only payment is the dole. There's none so blind......

https://m.welfare.ie/en/Pages/bud18s1.aspx

Which other payments specifically do you have an issue with specifically? Pensions? Disability? Which ones are leading to people being better off than you are?

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

EVERY bloody time!!!

"Der bankers....", change the bleeding record.

In other words, stop bringing up other relevant points so we can continue bashing the vulnerable in society.

Our welfare system needs reform, I have no argument there, but I can't understand why those on welfare seem to be the first target for anyone working who feels hard done by.

Doctor Jimbob

Clyde Narrow Playboy wrote: »

Never going to happen, as long as "de bankers" can be used to deflect attention from the welfare culture.

We have 225,000 on the Live Register at a time when Ireland is the fastest growing economy in Europe for the fourth year running. From the construction industry to the hotel sector, employers are complaining about shortages of staff. And yet we're expected to believe that 225,000 people can't find jobs?

When I was last unemployed I applied for hotel jobs and didn't hear a word back. Maybe if they got back to interested applicants, they wouldn't be so short staffed.

Guy:Incognito

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Do you know what the word "relatively" means?

What does people's employers not paying their staff enough to live a better life have to do with people on welfare anyway?

If everyone's employers paid them more, prices go up to pay for the more expensive operating costs. Inflation goes up so disposable income might not be much more. Course social welfare has to go up to match the inflation...............

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

When I was last unemployed I applied for hotel jobs and didn't hear a word back. Maybe if they got back to interested applicants, they wouldn't be so short staffed.

You really think the entire Irish hotel sector is short-staffed because they don't respond to job applicants?

Guy:Incognito

Graces7 wrote: »

and why not in an area of your choosing?

Why not an area that's affordable for the person concerned. You know, like, say, people who have to buy their own houses.


I'd love a 5 bedroom house in foxrock, that's the area of my choosing. But I can't afford one, so I don't get one.

whisky_galore

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

When I was last unemployed I applied for hotel jobs and didn't hear a word back. Maybe if they got back to interested applicants, they wouldn't be so short staffed.

How many years ago was that?

Doctor Jimbob

Clyde Narrow Playboy wrote: »

You really think the entire Irish hotel sector is short-staffed because they don't respond to job applicants?

No, but to read some posts on here you'd swear these industries are crying out for any staff they can get.

whisky_galore wrote: »

How many years ago was that?

Around 9 months ago.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

No, but to read some posts on here you'd swear these industries are crying out for any staff they can get.

Hotels are bringing workers in from Eastern Europe while we have 225,000 people on the Live Register. We're not talking about highly skilled workers here -- we're talking about maids, bartenders, wait staff, etc. Honestly, do you really not see the problem when Irish people would rather stay on the dole than take these kinds of jobs?

firstlight

From my own experiences of it and my opinion
It's destroys a part of you as a person
No confidence
No hope
Turns you against friends
Become isolated and alone
Turn very negative and angry
Interviews get you nowhere
Can't get interviews
End up getting jobs and been told their permenent,been used to fill a 2 day gaps and not been payed
Maybe just a certain industry I don't know
Been payed for work in vouchers
Trying really hard and getting so demorilised
Been sent to seetec and your adviser s havent a clue
Tick the box exercise
I do firmly believe you try hard and you will get places but I do think sometimes some people are just destined for a life of struggle,not everybody can live the perfect life by other people's standards
I'm sure I am not covering everything either
Anyway one thing I am sure of,health is your wealth and so is your friends and family
Make the most of each day

knipex

Graces7 wrote: »

You did and do wonderfully but not everyone has the grit and gumption to do that.Oh and re your first para, this IS ireland and IS a welfare state. period

not sure re your meanin re what I have bolded? And again, this IS the welfare state option. We who live in subsidies housing are not lesser citizens bowing and scraping in gratitude... we are equal with you and we have needs that should be respected.. subsidised housing is available in all areas so why not choose? to be near family,?fine?

Ireland had a welfare system that is being transformed into a "welfare state" far beyond what most people are comfortable with or willing to pay for. .

As I said I have no issue with the state supplying subsidized housing without any stigma. but you have again proven my point re entitlement and rights.

In your opinion you (or anyone else) is entitled to a state subsidised house in an area of your choosing of a type and layout to suit your demands.

Yet those like myself, who have no entitlement to state subsidy or or support and who pay the income taxes to provide the subsidy cannot afford in our ideal area, to our ideal specification and type.

So to address your point, you are not asking for equal benefit you are demanding preferential treatment over and above someone who is getting no state support.

whisky_galore

Clyde Narrow Playboy wrote: »

Hotels are bringing workers in from Eastern Europe while we have 225,000 people on the Live Register. We're not talking about highly skilled workers here -- we're talking about maids, bartenders, wait staff, etc. Honestly, do you really not see the problem when Irish people would rather stay on the dole than take these kinds of jobs?

Still, they will always look for 'experience' and found from someone jobseeking in that sector, a number of places only take on young, pretty/handsome staff to give the place a 'vibe'.

Doctor Jimbob

Clyde Narrow Playboy wrote: »

Hotels are bringing workers in from Eastern Europe while we have 225,000 people on the Live Register. We're not talking about highly skilled workers here -- we're talking about maids, bartenders, wait staff, etc. Honestly, do you really not see the problem when Irish people would rather stay on the dole than take these kinds of jobs?

Why are they bringing in workers from Eastern Europe though? Again, I applied for the exact kinds of jobs you're speaking about and didn't even get a response. That's not a case of preferring to stay on the dole, that's a case of people not wanting to hire me, despite having relevant experience from abroad.

Doctor Jimbob

whisky_galore wrote: »

Still, they will always look for 'experience' and found from someone jobseeking in that sector, a number of places only take on young, pretty/handsome staff to give the place a 'vibe'.

That explains why I wasn't successful in fairness :pac:

mariaalice

whisky_galore wrote: »

Still, they will always look for 'experience' and found from someone jobseeking in that sector, a number of places only take on young, pretty/handsome staff to give the place a 'vibe'.

There is a mismatch between the unemployed and the skills they have and what hotels want.

Was in a hotel recently in Dublin and all the front of house staff were eastern European and were extreamley articulate with faultless English the rest of the staff were middle eastern? The management was Irish though.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Why are they bringing in workers from Eastern Europe though? Again, I applied for the exact kinds of jobs you're speaking about and didn't even get a response. That's not a case of preferring to stay on the dole, that's a case of people not wanting to hire me, despite having relevant experience from abroad.

I'm not sure why they didn't respond to you. But you can't extrapolate from that to assuming that the entire Irish hotel sector is not responding to job applicants.

Same thing happened during the last boom. Hundreds of thousands of foreign workers came to Ireland and worked from dawn till dusk while hundreds of thousands of Irish languished on the Live Register claiming that they couldn't find work.

There's a big difference between "can't find work" and "not interested in working" that the defenders of welfare culture always overlook.

whisky_galore

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

That explains why I wasn't successful in fairness :pac:

Tbf a lot of places won't bother responding if you're unsuccessful, not just hospitality. SME's don't bother their barney most of the time.

Multi nationals will respond. Semi states will let you know...eventually.

knipex

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

To those who keep bringing up their taxes on threads like this, I'm curious: do you actually think you'd get that money back or something if the government decided tomorrow to cut welfare payments? There are worse things tax money could be going on than ensuring the majority of people in the country have at least a decent standard of living. Sure some people are taking advantage of it, but no matter what kind of system you have set up, some people are going to find a way to take advantage. And before anyone asks, no, I'm not on welfare.

As I said I have no issue paying taxes to help people in need or to provide services. To be honest the "Welfare State" that is being developed and the new cry of rights and entitlements terrifies me, not for its cost (although that is a significant concern) but for the long term damage it is and will do to society.

Doctor Jimbob

Clyde Narrow Playboy wrote: »

I'm not sure why they didn't respond to you. But you can't extrapolate from that to assuming that the entire Irish hotel sector is not responding to job applicants.

Same thing happened during the last boom. Hundreds of thousands of foreign workers came to Ireland and worked from dawn till dusk while hundreds of thousands of Irish languished on the Live Register claiming that they couldn't find work.

There's a big difference between "can't find work" and "not interested in working" that the defenders of welfare culture always overlook.

Similarly, people can't extrapolate that people just don't want to work from the amount of people on the live register. It's more complex than that.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Similarly, people can't extrapolate that people just don't want to work from the amount of people on the live register. It's more complex than that.

I'm aware that there are levels of frictional, structural, and voluntary unemployment. In the latter case, there are people in society who will choose not to work regardless of the incentives.

However, such people should not be entitled to claim JSA, which assumes that the claimant is actively seeking and available for work. If you're claiming JSA without any intention of ever working, that is welfare fraud.

Grayson

Clyde Narrow Playboy wrote: »

The amount of detected fraud is a tiny amount. Many people successfully fiddle the system for years without getting caught.



...always have to be brought up to deflect from the subject at hand.

So what you're saying is that there's a massive amount of fraud but nobody knows about it and you can't prove it.

And I'm not deflecting. I'm saying that the amount lost to fraud is tiny. Especially in comparison to other lost revenue that the government has. Yet people make a huge issue about it.
We have people investigating fraud, as we should. We have people who constantly look at how much is spent. But some people really need to get over the hang ups that they have about this.

Grayson

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

That explains why I wasn't successful in fairness :pac:

I saw an advert in the town i live in for a waiter/waitress for a pub. Must have 2+ years of experience. For a fecking waiting job!

whisky_galore

Grayson wrote: »

I saw an advert in the town i live in for a waiter/waitress for a pub. Must have 2+ years of experience. For a fecking waiting job!

They'll be looking for a Masters next, employers' unrealistic expectations.

irishproduce

Richard Hillman wrote: »

It's a bit like taking an animal from the wild and putting them in a zoo. The original animal can be returned to the wild as it still has its hunting instincts, wheas if they have cub's, the cubs will be waited on hand and foot, fed, kept safe etc. They have a chance as they can be thought by their parents but a lesser chance. Generations down the line, they have no chance of providing for themselves, they've never been thought how. Their parents don't know how. They've become institutionalized into the zoo.

I agree with this. Ireland is basically a social welfare zoo.
I swear, go and look for yourself.

Grayson

irishproduce wrote: »

I agree with this. Ireland is basically a social welfare zoo.
I swear, go and look for yourself.

Except people aren't like domesticated animals that are trained. They are literally nothing like that.

irishproduce

Rhyme wrote: »

What struck me when I was on the dole for a few months (between jobs, moved back home while looking) was that everything I could afford with the handouts was someone elses money. I personally found it intolerable that for every bus ticket, every shirt and tie bought for an interview, for everything, I was putting my hand into other peoples pockets. I wasn't buying that train ticket, someone else was paying for it. Did voluntary work so I at least felt like I was earning my keep and eventually got a proper job. Am now married, have a career and got very lucky in house-hunting.

Looking back now I understand that I was misguided. That the doles purpose was to pay for those tickets and interview clothes. The dole is the means to get a job.

I find the prospect of living on the dole an extremely sad one. Your mind turns to mush and your thoughts twist in on themselves so you're either convinced that things are fine or you've got one over on the Government and aren't you awful smart. I would imagine that a good amount of the people who queued up with me to collect their dole are in this life and will never work again.

No offence Rhyme but that is horse****.

If you broke your leg and VHI paid your hospital bill, would you feel ashamed that you had been paying insurance to need to claim from that insurance?

If your house flooded and you needed to get repairs done and so forth, would you be apologetic to your neighbours that you were using their money to pay for it?

You would in your arse, cop on to yourself.

You paid fairly and squarely into an insurance bond that in the event of needing assistance it would be there for you (PRSI).

Now, if you paid fúck all PRSI doing cash work, or if you were a scrounger who never bothered working then yes, that would be dipping into others' pockets.

What you did however was not that. You paid the insurance fair and square.

Added point, the "dole" is not designed to help you get a job.
You need to read up on the difference between Assistance and Benefit. They are not the same (dole) thing.

Edit: Now can we go back to discussing the downsides of wasters on benefits that they paid nothing towards?

frosty123

ok i'll confess...i'm on SW, does it bother me? well to be honest no it doesn't

cause..i've been in so many jobs that i've hated and i mean HATED, working in factories & warehouses working with assh@les and scumbags wreckin my mental health nah i'm in no hurry to return to that.

maybe its my own fault i didn't do a tap at school so i layed my own bed so to speak, but from now on i'm going to be extra vigilant about the next position i take up, considering going to college as a mature student anything to improve my prospects

lertsnim

frosty123 wrote: »

considering going to college as a mature student anything to improve my prospects

You wont regret it.

mariaalice

frosty123 wrote: »

ok i'll confess...i'm on SW, does it bother me? well to be honest no it doesn't

cause..i've been in so my jobs that i've hated and i mean HATED, working in factories & warehouses working with assh@les and scumbags wreckin my mental health nah i'm in no hurry to return to that.

maybe its my own fault i didn't do a tap at school so i layed my own bed so to speak, but from now on i'm going to be extra vigilant about the next position i take up, considering going to college as a mature student anything to improve my prospects

Great idea but remember people are the same everywhere, third level education is not going to change that.

Guy:Incognito

whisky_galore wrote: »

They'll be looking for a Masters next, employers' unrealistic expectations.

I'd say if you walked in there, smartly dressed, with a good attitude, asked to speak to the manager and hand your cv to them you'd get a long way without 2 years experience.

Emailing a cv with no experience for the job (unless they scoring that's the way they want them) or wandering in in a tracksuit saying to the first person you encounter "eh, can I leave this with you for the job" or worse again, getting your mammy to hand it in at the till (anyone that works in retail will have encountered these scenarios and worse) won't get you a call back.

If someone meets you face to face, sees you are presentable, articulate and willing to put effort in they will talk to you and often give you a shot. Asking for experience for these jobs is the first step to weeding out the lazy and undesirable.

StereoSound

You can spot some of these long term unemployed people who ain't bothered to find a job, people aren't stupid, they know the dole monkeys with their grey tracksuit walking around the shops at 11am on a Monday with the pot belly and take out cappuccino.

knipex

whisky_galore wrote: »

They'll be looking for a Masters next, employers' unrealistic expectations.

I have never, not once, had all the experience or qualifications required for any job I ever had. If I hit 70% of the requirements I considered myself a perfect fit.

An employer puts out a wish list.

knipex

StereoSound wrote: »

they know the dole monkeys with their grey tracksuit walking around the shops at 11am on a Monday with the pot belly and take out cappuccino.

That sounds very much like me last Monday.. Enjoying a rare day off.