Enforcing a determination order

picturehangup

Just reading this thread, and I am positively horrified by the OP's experience. Hope things are better for you.
For this year my family and I are both tenant and LL.

I am letting out my house for a year, as I have had to relocate for a year, to save daughter from a long commute to school.
She is doing her LC, and we have yet to secure tenants, going through an auctioneer. Just hope we get the right ones.

I cannot understand why it so difficult to evict these people, as they are clearly taking the proverbial.

We are in turn tenants now, and I am terrified that we would even scuff the paint, and I do not know how someone cannot take good care of a property that is not theirs.The mind boggles.

Carlos Orange

picturehangup wrote: »

I cannot understand why it so difficult to evict these people, as they are clearly taking the proverbial.

In Ireland you can just break into someones house , change the locks and it takes 6 months to get you out. Nothing would surprise me about how long it takes to evict someone who was at one stage a tenant.

http://www.thejournal.ie/squatter-phibsborough-ordered-to-leave-3309321-Mar2017/

Owlet

Airy Fairy - That's good to know. You are dead right to pursue it. We will not be letting this go either.

Why doesn't someone ring Threshold and pretend to be in a position like my tenant and record the advice they get, then send it to a journo? I would but can't for annoying reasons related to my job. Feel very strongly this who system needs reforming. I don't see what the point of the RTB is if they can't actually do anything. We should be able to go straight to the sherriff now the determination order has lapsed.

Baby01032012

Solicitor is the only way. RTB have limited resources in terms of time and money to pursue DOs through the courts.

They took for ever when I went through the whole sorry process. Despite tenant not turning up for the adjudication, as tenant appealed the adjudication order they still allowed them to appeal and go to a determination hearing. Which cost me another 3 months before that was heard. When tenant again didn’t turn up for the determination hearing they took another 2 months to issue their order.

RTB are not your friend. They are worse than the tenant.

I’m currently bringing a case to the circuit court against the letting agent who didn’t check references and put them in the property.

dudara

It is even possible for a landlord to take a civil case against Threshold for the losses that their advice has caused? I suppose there would have to be a strong element of proof.

splinter65

Owlet wrote: »

Airy Fairy - That's good to know. You are dead right to pursue it. We will not be letting this go either.

Why doesn't someone ring Threshold and pretend to be in a position like my tenant and record the advice they get, then send it to a journo? I would but can't for annoying reasons related to my job. Feel very strongly this who system needs reforming. I don't see what the point of the RTB is if they can't actually do anything. We should be able to go straight to the sherriff now the determination order has lapsed.

The advice Threshold give is not unlawful. And there are still some appalling landlords who have a special place reserved for them in hell who need to be reeled in.

airy fairy

splinter65 wrote: »

The advice Threshold give is not unlawful. And there are still some appalling landlords who have a special place reserved for them in hell who need to be reeled in.

Bad landlords or not, it's still no excuse for threshold to advise someone to sit it out and by the time it'll get seen to in court they'd have a year free accommodation.
Bad landlords or not, it's still not an excuse to refuse to pay rental fees where one resides, be the landlord a millionaire or a landlord by necessity from negative equity during the collapse of financial Ireland.
I wasn't a bad landlord, I've always said I would only rent the property in a condition in which I'd like to see my kids in.
There needs to be an independent body for the soul purpose of landlords, like I believe the rtb is currently for tenants.

Owlet

Ditto. I've always been an exemplary landlord. I even used to work for a housing charity in a different country. (And we would never have given advice like Threshold.)

DubCount

I have never figured out why non-payment of rent is not treated as theft and the subject of a criminal charge. Maybe the treat of a criminal conviction might focus the minds of squatting tenants.

Eric Cartman

Owlet wrote: »

We have a tenant who is overholding following the RTB issuing a determination order in our favour as landlords.

The tenant owes us €7000 and we are quite stressed by the situation. We just want the house back in our possession so we can sell it and move on with our lives. We have given the tenant every opportunity to leave without retribution and even after the determination order was issued we offered to write off the owed rent if he vacated immediately. He did not take the offer.

We are now left wondering if it is better/quicker to ask the RTB to enforce the order or to hire a solicitor privately to do it? The RTB have been very slow to do everything so far so my heart sinks at the thought of relying them on now, but at the same time we could do without the cost of a solicitor. I'm not sure how much it would cost to enforce privately... maybe 2k???? Does anyone know if it is much quicker to enforce privately or is there not much in it?

Any thoughts on the best way to get it enforced Asap appreciated.

Thanks.

Ireland is hands down one of the worst countries to be a landlord in. We should have like some states do in the US where the cops attend with bailiffs who smash in the door and physically extract people after 90 days arrears. Thats literally the only solution for us now.

TheBoyConor

These situations boil my blood. The occasional bad tenant like this who has such a brazen neck to hold out like this.

What I'd love to do, even tho I know it would not yield rent not get the property back, is MOD NOTE: read the forum charter.

Del2005

Owlet wrote: »

I don't see what the point of the RTB is if they can't actually do anything.

They do a lot for tenants, landlord doesn't dot all the i's and cross all the t's they get thousands.

Eric Cartman

Owlet wrote: »

I don't see what the point of the RTB is if they can't actually do anything.

They advise tenants to contact services that tell them to overhold. They find paperwork landlords filled out incorrectly and use that fault to issue tenants thousands in compensation.
they tell landlords they can't remove tenants for months on end in arrears.

then they release reports basically calling landlords greedy and saying rent and deposit prices are too high.

airy fairy

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Ireland is hands down one of the worst countries to be a landlord in. We should have like some states do in the US where the cops attend with bailiffs who smash in the door and physically extract people after 90 days arrears. Thats literally the only solution for us now.

If we had that situation in this country, rents would stagnate, properties would be put on the market for rent and the rental crisis that is, would deteriorate.
I cannot fathom how statistics fail to recognise that it's the situation where many landlords find ourselves in because of overholding etc is the reason there are no rental properties available.
I'm not saying for a moment to give the tenants less rights, but the current state of play let's a tenant basically take over someone else's property and the landlord has to fight and beg to take their house back in the event they want to sell or because the tenant has failed to pay rent.

the_syco

airy fairy wrote: »

If we had that situation in this country, rents would stagnate, properties would be put on the market for rent and the rental crisis that is, would deteriorate.

airy fairy wrote: »

I'm not saying for a moment to give the tenants less rights, but the current state of play let's a tenant basically take over someone else's property and the landlord has to fight and beg to take their house back in the event they want to sell or because the tenant has failed to pay rent.

Either there's a reason for people to move out when told to by the PTRB, or there isn't. Currently, there isn't.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

I would like to know the answer to this question.
Threshold have allegedly told a tenant living in a family members property to overhold until they find other suitable accommodation. Would a call recording of an individual in threshold giving that 'advise' be enough proof?

dudara wrote: »

It is even possible for a landlord to take a civil case against Threshold for the losses that their advice has caused? I suppose there would have to be a strong element of proof.

utmbuilder

look if the tennant didn't like the landlord or landlords and wanted a free ride he has gotten it

he needs to move on at this point it's gotten too far

Del2005

Sienna Putrid Bird wrote: »

I would like to know the answer to this question.
Threshold have allegedly told a tenant living in a family members property to overhold until they find other suitable accommodation. Would a call recording of an individual in threshold giving that 'advise' be enough proof?

Like most things in the private rental sector when they have finally driven the private/accidental landlords out of the market the REiTs won't take the crap and they have the time and money to fight, but they won't till they control the market. Then we'll see what a few big corporations out to make maximum money for their shareholders/pensioners do to tenants, there'll be no keeping the rent the same for good tenants and if you don't pay it won't be 12 months or more to get you out.

tvjunki

Sienna Putrid Bird wrote: »

I would like to know the answer to this question.
Threshold have allegedly told a tenant living in a family members property to overhold until they find other suitable accommodation. Would a call recording of an individual in threshold giving that 'advise' be enough proof?

Many years ago I had a tenant wanting rent allowance and they were not entitled to it as they were on a work permit. The social welfare inspector told him to stay in the house until a property could be found. I went to the inspector and his response was if don't give him rent allowance someone else will. So it is not just threshold that suggests this.

LuckyLloyd

These threads popping up are a recurring theme on the forum. Would an FAQ stickied thread be useful? There is an answer on how to proceed which is what I think people are looking for, not whiny political treatises on how awful Ireland is for the poor downtrodden landlords.

There's a discussion to be had on that and an answer too (significant expedition of the process at every step), but the constant recurring rigmarole on here isn't helping anyone and is frankly painful to read.

Graces7

Sienna Putrid Bird wrote: »

I would like to know the answer to this question.
Threshold have allegedly told a tenant living in a family members property to overhold until they find other suitable accommodation. Would a call recording of an individual in threshold giving that 'advise' be enough proof?

I had help from threshold when my previous tenancy went sideways. AT NO TIME was I advised to overhold, or to use the deposit as last month's rent etc, They were punctilious. There was the question of the lease and they contacted the agent and gave alternatives that were accepted by both sides.
Threshold were totally above board and legal when I was tempted to take short cuts .

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

I was also very particular in how I worded my query, hence why I said 'allegedly'.

"Do not move until you have somewhere else to live" ...sure sounds like telling the tenant to overhold.

Graces7 wrote: »

I had help from threshold when my previous tenancy went sideways. AT NO TIME was I advised to overhold, or to use the deposit as last month's rent etc, They were punctilious. There was the question of the lease and they contacted the agent and gave alternatives that were accepted by both sides.
Threshold were totally above board and legal when I was tempted to take short cuts .

Fian

DubCount wrote: »

I have never figured out why non-payment of rent is not treated as theft and the subject of a criminal charge. Maybe the treat of a criminal conviction might focus the minds of squatting tenants.

We did away with debtors prisons long ago. It is not a crime to be unable to repay a debt.

If a person dishonestly signed a lease with an intention not to pay the rent (rather than an intention to pay but a subsequent inability to do so) that would constitute an offence:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/50/section/6/enacted/en/html

Of course it would be practically impossible to prove the required intent beyond a reasonable doubt.

DubCount

Fian wrote: »

We did away with debtors prisons long ago. It is not a crime to be unable to repay a debt.

If a person dishonestly signed a lease with an intention not to pay the rent (rather than an intention to pay but a subsequent inability to do so) that would constitute an offence:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/50/section/6/enacted/en/html

Of course it would be practically impossible to prove the required intent beyond a reasonable doubt.

I did not suggest debtor prisons. We have mechanisms to deal with bankrupt individuals that dont involve prison. I have no issue with that.

However, using a service without the intention to pay for it is theft in my view. Its no different from taking goods without the intention to pay. If you are caught, saying "I cant afford the good/service" should not be a defense.

The tenant in OP's post will eventually be evicted. What system do we have to ensure that they do not move on to another tenancy, keep their nose clean for 6 months, and then milk some other LL for a free ride?

Inability to pay a debt is one thing, milking the system should be criminal IMHO.

3DataModem

Good luck OP, whatever action you take.

My tenant of 10 years is leaving next year, after which time it’s short term / holiday letting only for me, and the reason is the risk of strategic overholding / underpaying.

Graces7

Sienna Putrid Bird wrote: »

I was also very particular in how I worded my query, hence why I said 'allegedly'.

"Do not move until you have somewhere else to live" ...sure sounds like telling the tenant to overhold.

Yes I noticed your great punctilious care.

I find that wording open to interpretation when taken out of context. Depends on the rest of the talk? Do they mean withholding rent? Moving before the notice is up?

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Staying in the property after notice period but continuing to pay rent.

Graces7 wrote: »

Yes I noticed your great punctilious care.

I find that wording open to interpretation when taken out of context. Depends on the rest of the talk? Do they mean withholding rent? Moving before the notice is up?

cherrypick

handlemaster wrote: »

The RTB are all for the tenant. So much so they love to publise there cases against landlords. I have yet to see them chase à tenant for unpaid rent

Yeah cause paying 1.5K for one bedroom or 2K for a ****hole and evicting tenants with a fake refurbishment is cool.

Baby01032012

cherrypick wrote: »

Yeah cause paying 1.5K for one bedroom or 2K for a ****hole and evicting tenants with a fake refurbishment is cool.

It works both ways. There are far greater laws in favor of the tenant than are loopholes for a landlord to screw the tenant. There’s guidance now for refurbishment which makes it more difficult to use that as a reason to increase rent over the 4% it’s still subjective though and open to interpretation and up to the tenant to challenge. If no once challenges then there’s no precedent to go by.

the_syco

cherrypick wrote: »

Yeah cause paying 1.5K for one bedroom or 2K for a ****hole and evicting tenants with a fake refurbishment is cool.

You wanted rent caps, you got rent caps. This is the result of rent caps.