A question for Atheists...

Kermit.de.frog

I'm agnostic on religion but I have a question for atheists...

If religion is all make believe and nonsense then why does nature allow humans to have such faith in the first place?

Darwin is survival of the fittest and nature perfects the most efficient organic machines on the planet.

So why then would this natural order of precision and efficency allow the human brain to accomodate faith of any kind?

Surely it shouldn't if it's deleterous and make believe.

And if it does that means there must be a benefit to faith or else nature wouldn't facilitate it.

Opinions please...

murpho999

Nature doesn't stop people from thinking and believing things that are right or wrong.

Or from having opinions.

Realt Dearg Sec

You have framed your question as if "nature" was a person. Similarly arguing that evolution is nature "perfecting" things misunderstands evolution and frames it as though it is the action of a being with will. So the questions you're asking are effectively making the assumption that there is a God.

beveragelady

Religion is one thing that binds groups together, often in opposition to other groups. Strength in numbers, enhanced chance of survival.

Superstition isn't only a human characteristic though. Skinner found that pigeons can develop unfounded beliefs, and there are billions of pigeons too...

Inviere

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If religion is all make believe and nonsense then why does nature allow humans to have such faith in the first place?

Same reason that allows billions of children believe in Santa Claus.

Darwin is survival of the fittest and nature perfects the most efficient organic machines on the planet.

So why then would this natural order of percision and efficency allow the human brain to accomodate faith of any kind?

Fear is a powerful psychological motivator. Fear of death, being gone, etc, gives those who believe in afterlife significant comfort I would imagine.

Surely it shouldn't if it's deleterous and make believe.

And if it does that means there must be a benefit to faith or else nature wouldn't facilitate it.

Nature facilitates lots of things, both good and bad.

Seth Brundle

beveragelady wrote: »

Superstition isn't only a human characteristic though. Skinner found that pigeons can develop unfounded beliefs, and there are billions of pigeons too...

There's a pigeon God?

igCorcaigh

Evolution works on the basis of behaviour, not beliefs, and how it impacts the liklihood of an organism to give rise to progeny.

Although I would bet that professing a belief in a religious outlook would certainly help your survival rates if rejecting it had lead to you being burned at the stake.

Ludikrus

Straw man argument.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Evolution makes many mistakes leading to wrong paths. Who says the human brain is the ultimate in evolutionary success anyway? Bacteria are more evolutionally perfect than humans.
Evolution has no part to play in thought processes.

The whole premise of a link between evolution and beliefs just shows a misunderstanding of the evolutionary process.

Stanford

" religion is all make believe and nonsense"...no one can say this is a scientific fact, it is true for believers and untrue for others who do not believe it.

Also evolution does not mean "the survival of the fittest", it means that organisms who adapt to their surroundings are more likely to thrive over those who don't.

You are confusing choice with belief, everyone has a choice as to what they believe.

Benteke

Religion was created by man to control the masses, The question should be if god really exists then why would he create creatures like parasite worm that can blind people, No good god would create such evil, If I was to go into a lab and clone such creatures I would be locked up for the rest of my life but yet people across the globe pray to a god who did create it in their eyes

Ludikrus

Nature and the human brain accommodate and facilitate a lot worse than people following their chosen cults. Darwin and nature don’t really have anything to do with it.

beveragelady

Stanford wrote: »

" religion is all make believe and nonsense"...no one can say this is a scientific fact, it is true for believers and untrue for others who do not believe it.

Also evolution does not mean "the survival of the fittest", it means that organisms who adapt to their surroundings are more likely to thrive over those who don't.

You are confusing choice with belief, everyone has a choice as to what they believe.

What a pile of word salad!

Look up 'truth' in a dictionary and see if you're willing to stand over the statement in bold above.

Stanford

Evolution can be scientifically validated, creationism skips this step neatly by introducing the need for faith

Turtwig

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Darwin is survival of the fittest and nature perfects the most efficient organic machines on the planet.

So why then would this natural order of precision and efficency allow the human brain to accomodate faith of any kind?

Surely it shouldn't if it's deleterous and make believe.

Deleterous is such a creationist expression.

Probably explains your misconceptions of evolution. (It's far from perfect) suggest you read up on the basics of evolution.

Stanford

beveragelady wrote: »

What a pile of word salad!

Look up 'truth' in a dictionary and see if you're willing to stand over the statement in bold above.

Apologies, should be the other way round

indioblack

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I'm agnostic on religion but I have a question for atheists...

If religion is all make believe and nonsense then why does nature allow humans to have such faith in the first place?

Darwin is survival of the fittest and nature perfects the most efficient organic machines on the planet.

So why then would this natural order of percision and efficency allow the human brain to accomodate faith of any kind?

Surely it shouldn't if it's deleterous and make believe.

And if it does that means there must be a benefit to faith or else nature wouldn't facilitate it.

Opinions please...

The first thing that came to mind is that I'm reading your post with the help of spectacles. I wish nature had been a bit more precise and efficient with my eyes.
"Survival of the fittest". Sometimes modernized to include, "survival of the cooperative".
It's obviously much more complex than that. Certainly less precise.
I can think of belief in the survival of the individual having a significant value as our ancestors observed that people died and that appeared to be the end of them materially.

Vic_08

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I'm agnostic on religion but I have a question for atheists...

If religion is all make believe and nonsense then why does nature allow humans to have such faith in the first place?

Darwin is survival of the fittest and nature perfects the most efficient organic machines on the planet.

So why then would this natural order of precision and efficency allow the human brain to accomodate faith of any kind?

Surely it shouldn't if it's deleterous and make believe.

And if it does that means there must be a benefit to faith or else nature wouldn't facilitate it.

Opinions please...

Dear me, "will the non-believers explain why their god allows belief in god?"

How many layers of stupid is that.

mad muffin

Why do dogs chase their tails? Why do cats like boxes? Why do birds suddenly appear, when you’re near?

Stanford

""Dear me, "will the non-believers explain why their god allows belief in god?"""

By inference do the non-believers have a God, who do they not believe in?

Hannibal_Smith

I dont believe it is a faith in a god that we process. I believe it all stems from death. Death of a loved one, the thought that we may never see them again, the thought that they cease to exist rather than going to 'a better place. All religions seem to revolve around death and the fact that the life works towards an afterlife. So it's an imaginary world we invented as a coping mechanism.

I think there's also an element of need, when all else has failed there has to be something else out there who can help. Like sun worship and sacrifices to help crops.

I don't believe we were designed to have a faith, we were designed to succeed, like every other animal and just like every other animal we are desperate to survive and in our last ditch attempt our imagination kicks in to either spur us on or comfort us.

Kermit.de.frog

Vic_08 wrote: »

Dear me, "will the non-believers explain why their god allows belief in god?"

How many layers of stupid is that.

I did not ask that so i'm curious why you think my question is stupid as against your assertion as to what I asked?

People have strong opinions on this but I don't agree with insulting posters for asking questions.

warsaw2018

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I'm agnostic on religion but I have a question for atheists...

If religion is all make believe and nonsense then why does nature allow humans to have such faith in the first place?

Darwin is survival of the fittest and nature perfects the most efficient organic machines on the planet.

So why then would this natural order of precision and efficency allow the human brain to accomodate faith of any kind?

Surely it shouldn't if it's deleterous and make believe.

And if it does that means there must be a benefit to faith or else nature wouldn't facilitate it.

Opinions please...

Tldr

Cody montana

The brain named itself, the brain can teach a surgeon to operate on itself, the brain is also delicious.

Robert ninja

This isn't much of a quesiton to atheists or even about religion. This is you not understanding evolution.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Darwin is survival of the fittest and nature perfects the most efficient organic machines on the planet.

What? This is just wrong. Are you trying to say that the theory of evolution at any time in its history concluded that the result of natural selection results in a perfect organism? A perfect being is hardly a scientific thing, either.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If religion is all make believe and nonsense then why does nature allow humans to have such faith in the first place?

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So why then would this natural order of precision and efficency allow the human brain to accomodate faith of any kind?

Again with the overselling of what evolution produces or even how it functions. I think you need to read more about evolution.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

And if it does that means there must be a benefit to faith or else nature wouldn't facilitate it.

Things don't need to be a benefit in natural selection, just not a detriment to the organism's ability to successfully replicate. There's millions of extinct species who were all at one point replicating just fine but then circumstances changed. Where they perfect and then not perfect? Why did nature allow them to ever go extinct?

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So why then would this natural order of precision and efficency allow the human brain to accommodate faith of any kind?

Why does it accommodate any thought process or mental state that may be negative to the person's well being?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Cody montana wrote: »

The brain named itself, the brain can teach a surgeon to operate on itself, the brain is also delicious.

And while it registers pain throughout the body, it cannot feel pain itself.

brightspark

It's my theory that belief in God, religion etc allowed people to bond into communities that then gave them success over people who did not form into similarly bonded groups.

Those who did not adhere to the groups beliefs were persecuted etc meaning that more of those who had a belief passed on their genes etc.,
So it does fit in with survival of the fittest.

Most religions are based on looking after the community, with rules that reduce conflict and disease within that community

Dravokivich

Just don't try telling me it's a chicken of it quacks like a duck.

Stanford

brightspark wrote: »

It's my theory that belief in God, religion etc allowed people to bond into communities that then gave them success over people who did not form into similarly bonded groups.

Those who did not adhere to the groups beliefs were persecuted etc meaning that more of those who had a belief passed on their genes etc.,
So it does fit in with survival of the fittest.

Most religions are based on looking after the community, with rules that reduce conflict and disease within that community

In support of your thesis I would argue that the world was fine until organised polarised religions emerged

_Brian

It’s in our DNA.
Humans have a desire to belong to a group of some sort, being part of a religion fulfills that desire. It came from our ansestors as being part of a group was safer and so increased survival rates.

We also greatly what everything to have a purpose, on a subconscious level it satisfies us to believe its all got a purpose and there’s a grand plan, religion allows this and better we can have the sense that millions of others believe the same thing so we must be right.

Wheety

Since the very early days of humans, the more naive were manipulated by the devious.

Captain Red Beard

Seth Brundle wrote: »

There's a pigeon God?

Hallowed beak thy name.

igCorcaigh

_Brian wrote: »

It’s in our DNA.

It isn't.

Guy:Incognito

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I'm agnostic on religion but I have a question for atheists...

If religion is all make believe and nonsense then why does nature allow humans to have such faith in the first place?

Darwin is survival of the fittest and nature perfects the most efficient organic machines on the planet.

So why then would this natural order of precision and efficency allow the human brain to accomodate faith of any kind?

Surely it shouldn't if it's deleterous and make believe.

And if it does that means there must be a benefit to faith or else nature wouldn't facilitate it.

Opinions please...

Why does nature allow diseases so?

Stanford

That depends on what you define by "nature"?

brightspark

Stanford wrote: »

In support of your thesis I would argue that the world was fine until organised polarised religions emerged

Perhaps but we wouldn't have reached this level of technology either.

I also don't believe that organised religions have been good for individuals in general, but have served as a method of controlling people to allow civilisations to develop.

indioblack

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Why does nature allow diseases so?

It's not that disease is permitted - it's just part of the mechanics of life.

Grayson

Stanford wrote: »

" religion is all make believe and nonsense"...no one can say this is a scientific fact, it is true for believers and untrue for others who do not believe it.

The second part of your sentence implies that it's all in someones head. God only exists for the people who believe in it and doesn't for those that don't implies that it's all about belief and nothing about what is actually real. So it is all make believe.

As for what the OP says, humans are irrational in nearly every aspect of our lives.

_Brian

igCorcaigh wrote: »

It isn't.

It is, the desire to belong to a group is programmed deep within each one of us, some find religion satisfies this need.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

brightspark wrote: »

It's my theory that belief in God, religion etc allowed people to bond into communities that then gave them success over people who did not form into similarly bonded groups.

Those who did not adhere to the groups beliefs were persecuted etc meaning that more of those who had a belief passed on their genes etc.,
So it does fit in with survival of the fittest.

Most religions are based on looking after the community, with rules that reduce conflict and disease within that community

Sorry but that completely misrepresents the notion of survival of the fittest. The 'fittest' refers the one best suited for the immediate environment.


The closest link between religious belief and religion is the theory of exaptation, or a shift in the function of a trait during evolution, where large brains, which evolved for other reasons, led to consciousness. The beginning of consciousness forced humans to deal with the concept of personal mortality. Religion may have been one solution to this problem.

brightspark

_Brian wrote: »

It is, the desire to belong to a group is programmed deep within each one of us, some find religion satisfies this need.

This is because as individuals we don't do too well.

A single humanoid is a poor hunter, a tribe could kill mammoths.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Why does nature allow diseases so?

Disease usually follows from a bacteria, a virus or a cell mutation and these are all naturally evolving species or processes.

buried

A Good two hour stare outside at the stars. That's all the religion anyone needs.

igCorcaigh

_Brian wrote: »

It is, the desire to belong to a group is programmed deep within each one of us, some find religion satisfies this need.

The programming could be as much cultural as genetic, but I know what you mean.

The widespread existence of varied religious or pseudo religious systems across civilisations separated in time and space suggests a universal influence, from our psychology or social structure perhaps, or God as some might propose. Many books have been written about it.

indioblack

As I was typing my last post I recalled a friend of mine that I'd known since childhood. She had a strong religious belief that gave her a purpose in life and an acceptance of life. So far as I am aware she went to her grave with the certainty and contentment that her belief gave her.
Obviously this says nothing about the truth of her belief.

RobbingBandit

A great man once said Oh nobody's father, who art nowhere. I know you can't hear me. Completely ignore this prayer. Nothing art thou and nothing will thou ever be. Jesus was just a man

beveragelady

Not only do I not believe in a god, I don't really really believe that others believe in one either. I think it's much more likely that people are terrified by the big questions, by death, by everything we don't know, and they're happy to subscribe to a set of rules if it means they don't have to worry themselves about the heavy stuff. They also welcome the chance to belong to a 'set' because it makes them feel less alone and it gives them the comfort of being one of many. They're willing to switch off critical thinking completely in order to stay comfortable. And that's fine, of course, until they start telling others they have to follow the same silly rules.
If we ask 'why has the process of evolution not eliminated superstition?' we may as well ask 'does evolution select for nationalism?' or 'does evolution select for supporters of one football team over another?'

_Brian

indioblack wrote: »

As I was typing my last post I recalled a friend of mine that I'd known since childhood. She had a strong religious belief that gave her a purpose in life and an acceptance of life. So far as I am aware she went to her grave with the certainty and contentment that her belief gave her.
Obviously this says nothing about the truth of her belief.

Perfect example of the positive side of religion.
Having been with a few people as they passed away their faith was a monumental strength for them.
I spoke to a good friend the day before he died aged 52 and he was confident and reassured in his belief, I was happy for him

begbysback

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Why does nature allow diseases so?

Living things are ultimately designed to expire - can you imagine earth if nobody, or nothing died?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

beveragelady wrote: »

Not only do I not believe in a god, I don't really really believe that others believe in one either. I think it's much more likely that people are terrified by the big questions, by death, by everything we don't know, and they're happy to subscribe to a set of rules if it means they don't have to worry themselves about the heavy stuff. They also welcome the chance to belong to a 'set' because it makes them feel less alone ...'

Oh, you are so wrong in that belief.

indioblack

Atlas Straight Rower wrote: »

Oh, you are so wrong in that belief.

Is it so wrong? I'd consider that the poster's claim would cover many who say they believe.