Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Head games on race day
-
20-08-2018 9:29amHi,
Quick one for ye. On every race day this year, my mental strength seems to go very negative. No matter what race, after 2 miles I want to quit. I ain't going out too fast.
For example a 10 mile race yesterday i started off at tempo pace and after 2-3 miles I just wanted to quit, eventually fell away to a poor time(4 mins off target). Only highlight was the last k where I hit the tempo pace again. Tempo pace is race pace for half.
All summer I have been running tempo pace runs from 4 - 7 miles, intervals from 1 mile, 1.5 miles, 2 miles etc, faster than race pace by 10 secs. Doing my long runs 10-13 miles, and 3 easy runs a week also, so training is going great.
Only highlight was I didn't quit the race. I have a half at the end of sept and not sure what to do to get the head right.
This is the first year its happened.
Any ideas?4
Comments
-
I found running without the watch lifted a lot of pressure
Didn't make me run faster though :pac:0 -
I've been like that for the last 6mts, had a rough emotional time Mar-May. Have not raced since June after a few terrible races, giving up as soon as the going gets tough, I got to 2k in a 5k race and that's it the head just gives in.
Since July have been just doing no pressure running, getting out and enjoying it, with the odd bit of speedwork. Will try get in shape for a race in Sept and see if the head is back.0 -
Its a tough one to get right, I think we've all been there at some stage or other.
On the plus side, if training is going well, you're staying consistent and tempo training is good....then you're at least fit and in good shape.
Racing can be exhilarating or it can be soul destroying, I like Ray's suggestion of racing without a watch for a while - how about racing more often? I raced a lot in the first half of the year and got myself to the stage where I would race well at the drop of a hat, mentally staying strong etc.
I think the pressure of hitting times is the number one mistake I've made in the past, if I race well and hang on in there as best I can, the time will be good....if I go out to hit times and get bogged down in splits, I tend not to hang on in there and race very well.
You're in good shape, reward yourself for it, pick a few races over the next while and see just how fit\strong you are....forget the watch and the pace, maybe if its a longer race ( like the 10 miler) then check in on the pace every now and then to make sure you're not overcooking it but if you're putting pressure on yourself to hit a number, it can backfire in my experience.
Wanting to quit is not a bad thing in my book, its natural reaction really - racing hard is scary and it hurts ! Race it mile by mile, literally hang on for each mile bit by bit and then you have that last mile to hang on for
Sometimes it pays off, other times it won't - but that's racing for you0 -
Duanington wrote: »Its a tough one to get right, I think we've all been there at some stage or other.
On the plus side, if training is going well, you're staying consistent and tempo training is good....then you're at least fit and in good shape.
Racing can be exhilarating or it can be soul destroying, I like Ray's suggestion of racing without a watch for a while - how about racing more often? I raced a lot in the first half of the year and got myself to the stage where I would race well at the drop of a hat, mentally staying strong etc.
I think the pressure of hitting times is the number one mistake I've made in the past, if I race well and hang on in there as best I can, the time will be good....if I go out to hit times and get bogged down in splits, I tend not to hang on in there and race very well.
You're in good shape, reward yourself for it, pick a few races over the next while and see just how fit\strong you are....forget the watch and the pace, maybe if its a longer race ( like the 10 miler) then check in on the pace every now and then to make sure you're not overcooking it but if you're putting pressure on yourself to hit a number, it can backfire in my experience.
Wanting to quit is not a bad thing in my book, its natural reaction really - racing hard is scary and it hurts ! Race it mile by mile, literally hang on for each mile bit by bit and then you have that last mile to hang on for
Sometimes it pays off, other times it won't - but that's racing for you
Alot of good points there. I am very time focus and that could be it, before I didn't mind as much.
Thanks0 -
It’s a big issue for me too.
I can only remember one race where I didn’t feel like stopping after two miles and that was a 1500m race:).Racism is now hiding behind the cloak of Community activism.
0 -
Advertisement
-
If it is a new thing i would look to some of the factors which may have changed.
Don't discount work and home stress or tiredness. Going into races physically fresh is one thing but you also need to make sure that you are mentally fresh also. If you are stressing on a regular basis then your mental capacity is spent dealing with that stuff that there is nothing else in the tank needed when you need to tap into it.
Personally I am not a fan of straight tempo's of up to 7 miles I think it's generally far too long and usually ends up with people starting too fast and the average pace looking okay for the session but realistically you are slowing throughout. I have been getting better results recently from cutting back the length of the tempo to ensure that they aren't being overcooked.
Also in terms of training it is no harm in setting up some sessions that have you practicing mental resilience and coping with mental anguish as well as physical. It's often something we ignore with general plans and templates for training which deal specifically with the physiological.
I know there is one session which my coach has me do which is just about digging deep and surviving it. We don't do it too regularly but just enough to keep in touch with that pain Likewise things like "hammer reps" that you see in some training (for example 10x600m with reps number 4 and 8 being -5 seconds of the other reps with same recovery. It is controlled but it puts the body under stress within the constraints of sessions)0 -
Testosterscone wrote: »If it is a new thing i would look to some of the factors which may have changed.
Don't discount work and home stress or tiredness. Going into races physically fresh is one thing but you also need to make sure that you are mentally fresh also. If you are stressing on a regular basis then your mental capacity is spent dealing with that stuff that there is nothing else in the tank needed when you need to tap into it.
Personally I am not a fan of straight tempo's of up to 7 miles I think it's generally far too long and usually ends up with people starting too fast and the average pace looking okay for the session but realistically you are slowing throughout. I have been getting better results recently from cutting back the length of the tempo to ensure that they aren't being overcooked.
Also in terms of training it is no harm in setting up some sessions that have you practicing mental resilience and coping with mental anguish as well as physical. It's often something we ignore with general plans and templates for training which deal specifically with the physiological.
I know there is one session which my coach has me do which is just about digging deep and surviving it. We don't do it too regularly but just enough to keep in touch with that pain Likewise things like "hammer reps" that you see in some training (for example 10x600m with reps number 4 and 8 being -5 seconds of the other reps with same recovery. It is controlled but it puts the body under stress within the constraints of sessions)
Just a quick question on this. The grads intermediate marathon plan has a 50 and 70 minute tempo run included. That would be approx 7 and 10 miles for me...practically 10 mile race pace if I could do it for 70 mins. Would you suggest swapping out these sessions for something else?0 -
Just a quick question on this. The grads intermediate marathon plan has a 50 and 70 minute tempo run included. That would be approx 7 and 10 miles for me...practically 10 mile race pace if I could do it for 70 mins. Would you suggest swapping out these sessions for something else?
Those are aerobic tempos and not LT tempos like T was talking about here. Aerobic tempos would be a small bit faster than marathon pace. If you look at Tinman's calculator, you will see tempo and lactate threshold are different paces completely. It's can be hugely confusing as tempo is a term thrown around so loosely and to mean so many different things depending on when and who is using it. Many people myself included will often use it interchangeably despite having different meanings mainly to avoid the confusion of having to go through a sort of jargoned up rigmorol of a discussion when pretty sure what the person in question means by tempo.
For most, they mean LT workouts. For the grads plan, it means aerobic tempo.0 -
Just to add.
LT tempo: roughly 60 minute race pace
Aerobic tempo: roughly 2 hour pace0 -
Just to add.
LT tempo: roughly 60 minute race pace
Aerobic tempo: roughly 2 hour pace
Haha, now I'm even more confused. I seem to fall between stools a little bit. Anyways the bottom line is to stick to the plan!
By the way thanks for mysteriously vanishing comment on my log. It was much appreciated and a great help.0 -
Advertisement
-
Just a quick question on this. The grads intermediate marathon plan has a 50 and 70 minute tempo run included. That would be approx 7 and 10 miles for me...practically 10 mile race pace if I could do it for 70 mins. Would you suggest swapping out these sessions for something else?
As Safiri mentioned there is a difference. Unfortunately the terminology used in the plan is determined by the calculator being used for simple practicalities in order to keep the plan simple to follow.
For reference what I mean here would be closer in line to what is described as Threshold. The plan doesn't actually exceed 25 min which would come under many people's views as a short tempo. and normally come closer to 3-5 miles depending on level.
My own personal reason for this is that most people lack muscular endurance to sustain good form under fatigue so those last 10-15 minute's they are not really working on race specific outcomes as well as higher injury risk.0 -
Testosterscone wrote: »
Don't discount work and home stress or tiredness. Going into races physically fresh is one thing but you also need to make sure that you are mentally fresh also. If you are stressing on a regular basis then your mental capacity is spent dealing with that stuff that there is nothing else in the tank needed when you need to tap into it.
I know there is one session which my coach has me do which is just about digging deep and surviving it.
Fully agree on point 1 above.
Back in June-July I was having a mojo crisis - Was thinking of even quitting running.
But when I look back - I had 2 daughters going through the LC & JC and I was starting a new job and doing a lot of travel.
Move forward to now - after a 2 week holiday, I'm chomping at the bit for my coach to up my mileage or give me harder sessions - Mainly because I'm mentally much fresher.
Testosterscone: Any examples of sessions that your coach gave you? Should I expect my coach to give me similar?0 -
-
AuldManKing wrote:Testosterscone: Any examples of sessions that your coach gave you? Should I expect my coach to give me similar?
Bear in mind Testosterscone that any sessions given to one student and not to the others could be deemed as favoritism.0 -
AuldManKing wrote: »
I'm chomping at the bit for my coach to up my mileage or give me harder sessions - Mainly because I'm mentally much fresher.
No two runners are alike and while mileage and workouts are a crucial part of running success, increasing mileage and/or intensity of workouts isn't always the answer. For most runners who are on the lower to mid-end(less than 60 ish for example);increasing it will probably bring some good success as you got to be doing some good mileage to become a good runner but say for instance you have 2 runners looking at 5k training.
Runner A is a natural 1500/5k athlete and runner B is a natural 5k/10k athlete. Would you train them the same way?
We'll call runner A fast twitch and Runner B slow twitch.
The answer would be no as you want to capitalise on their strengths and weaknesses. who is more likely to thrive on higher mileage? it should be your 5/10k athlete as they are more endurance inclined and should react best to that stimulus while your 1500/5k athlete will thrive on a lower mileage base with higher intensity even though the target distance is the same. much like natural marathoners love the long runs but your 1500m might despise them.
So if you were looking to coach both these athletes to run a good 5k, you should be looking at shortened long runs at a higher intensity and more focus on aerobic intervals to gain an aerobic stimulus along with higher volume but shorter, faster specific intervals for Runner A while volume at lower intensity and longer reps on runs and intervals will be more important for slow twitch runner B across the board.
To give a better perspective on this; We could compare two old school coaches; Mihaly Igloi and Arthur Lydiard. Igloi would be predominately dealing with middle distance runners and Lydiard was from 800m to Marathon but their training system could not be more different even at middle distance. Igloi was a huge fan of intervals but not in the same vein as people perceive them today; he knew his fast twitch speedsters needed the aerobic stimulus that you get from running long but didn't want these athletes slogging through miles upon miles so he decided that he would break down these runs into intervals to skin the cat another way. The way he done this was by having some crazy workouts like 40x100m @mile pace with short recoveries which would replicate steady aerobic running because the intervals would be short, the athletes would not be accumulating lactate and if you're not accumulating lactate; you are running aerobically, genius! It meant he could do a lot of really fast running while creating a similar effect to a normal easy or steady run.
Lydiard on the other hand was a slow-twitch runners fantasy, massive volume at moderate intensity; he would prescribe a 100mpw of running between a little faster than Marathon pace and a bit faster than easy pace during base and huge volumes of intervals during specific phase; The idea being that you're hugely strong aerobic runner can take that stimulus and reacts very positively to it. Some Lydiard focused athletes were known to run 200mpw at times.
Time has probably passed by those coaches at the top level today, definitely Igloi anyway but that doesn't take anything away from their messages. they are two extreme opposing examples of training approach and the answer probably lies somewhere in between but something I used to illustrate the point that there are many ways to skin a cat and your starting point and approach is hugely dependent on the most important aspect of training; The athlete.0 -
AuldManKing wrote: »Fully agree on point 1 above.
Back in June-July I was having a mojo crisis - Was thinking of even quitting running.
But when I look back - I had 2 daughters going through the LC & JC and I was starting a new job and doing a lot of travel.
Move forward to now - after a 2 week holiday, I'm chomping at the bit for my coach to up my mileage or give me harder sessions - Mainly because I'm mentally much fresher.
Testosterscone: Any examples of sessions that your coach gave you? Should I expect my coach to give me similar?
Ye guys have your own coach?0 -
-
No two runners are alike and while mileage and workouts are a crucial part of running success, increasing mileage and/or intensity of workouts isn't always the answer. For most runners who are on the lower to mid-end(less than 60 ish for example);increasing it will probably bring some good success as you got to be doing some good mileage to become a good runner but say for instance you have 2 runners looking at 5k training.
Runner A is a natural 1500/5k athlete and runner B is a natural 5k/10k athlete. Would you train them the same way?
We'll call runner A fast twitch and Runner B slow twitch.
The answer would be no as you want to capitalise on their strengths and weaknesses. who is more likely to thrive on higher mileage? it should be your 5/10k athlete as they are more endurance inclined and should react best to that stimulus while your 1500/5k athlete will thrive on a lower mileage base with higher intensity even though the target distance is the same. much like natural marathoners love the long runs but your 1500m might despise them.
So if you were looking to coach both these athletes to run a good 5k, you should be looking at shortened long runs at a higher intensity and more focus on aerobic intervals to gain an aerobic stimulus along with higher volume but shorter, faster specific intervals for Runner A while volume at lower intensity and longer reps on runs and intervals will be more important for slow twitch runner B across the board.
To give a better perspective on this; We could compare two old school coaches; Mihaly Igloi and Arthur Lydiard. Igloi would be predominately dealing with middle distance runners and Lydiard was from 800m to Marathon but their training system could not be more different even at middle distance. Igloi was a huge fan of intervals but not in the same vein as people perceive them today; he knew his fast twitch speedsters needed the aerobic stimulus that you get from running long but didn't want these athletes slogging through miles upon miles so he decided that he would break down these runs into intervals to skin the cat another way. The way he done this was by having some crazy workouts like 40x100m @mile pace with short recoveries which would replicate steady aerobic running because the intervals would be short, the athletes would not be accumulating lactate and if you're not accumulating lactate; you are running aerobically, genius! It meant he could do a lot of really fast running while creating a similar effect to a normal easy or steady run.
Lydiard on the other hand was a slow-twitch runners fantasy, massive volume at moderate intensity; he would prescribe a 100mpw of running between a little faster than Marathon pace and a bit faster than easy pace during base and huge volumes of intervals during specific phase; The idea being that you're hugely strong aerobic runner can take that stimulus and reacts very positively to it. Some Lydiard focused athletes were known to run 200mpw at times.
Time has probably passed by those coaches at the top level today, definitely Igloi anyway but that doesn't take anything away from their messages. they are two extreme opposing examples of training approach and the answer probably lies somewhere in between but something I used to illustrate the point that there are many ways to skin a cat and your starting point and approach is hugely dependent on the most important aspect of training; The athlete.
Great post - the many ways to skin a cat thing is something I struggle with explaining to people who are new to the sport.
It wasn't lost on a lot of us who were at the day of Irish PBs event over the summer that during the Q+A with Jerry K and Mick C, you had two succesful athletes ( and coach in Jerry's case) in their own right, talking about their vary different approaches to training for a marathon.
On one hand you had The Claw talking about how he prefers a plenty of racing throught training and a hard 10k (or so) race 2-3 weeks out from the marathon.
Jerry on the other hand was very clear in stating the opposite, he didn't want most of his athletes racing for AT LEAST 6 weeks before their marathon.
Different approaches for the same goal.
On the subject of head games during a race, I ran a 5k during the week and had myself worn out before the race ( organising teams etc), by the time it came to actually racing - I had stressed quite a bit during the day and am pretty sure if this was an event I had entered solo, as opposed to a team event...I'd have found an excuse to cave in somewhere.
As it happens, while the time wasn't great, the team element had me pushing on for a solid performance, when the demons came calling during the race, it was the team element that stood in the way, ultimately it was a solid result in the end.
OP - have you raced as part of a team much? Could be worth visiting this if not0 -
No two runners are alike and while mileage and workouts are a crucial part of running success, increasing mileage and/or intensity of workouts isn't always the answer. For most runners who are on the lower to mid-end(less than 60 ish for example);increasing it will probably bring some good success as you got to be doing some good mileage to become a good runner but say for instance you have 2 runners looking at 5k training.
Runner A is a natural 1500/5k athlete and runner B is a natural 5k/10k athlete. Would you train them the same way?
We'll call runner A fast twitch and Runner B slow twitch.
The answer would be no as you want to capitalise on their strengths and weaknesses. who is more likely to thrive on higher mileage? it should be your 5/10k athlete as they are more endurance inclined and should react best to that stimulus while your 1500/5k athlete will thrive on a lower mileage base with higher intensity even though the target distance is the same. much like natural marathoners love the long runs but your 1500m might despise them.
So if you were looking to coach both these athletes to run a good 5k, you should be looking at shortened long runs at a higher intensity and more focus on aerobic intervals to gain an aerobic stimulus along with higher volume but shorter, faster specific intervals for Runner A while volume at lower intensity and longer reps on runs and intervals will be more important for slow twitch runner B across the board.
To give a better perspective on this; We could compare two old school coaches; Mihaly Igloi and Arthur Lydiard. Igloi would be predominately dealing with middle distance runners and Lydiard was from 800m to Marathon but their training system could not be more different even at middle distance. Igloi was a huge fan of intervals but not in the same vein as people perceive them today; he knew his fast twitch speedsters needed the aerobic stimulus that you get from running long but didn't want these athletes slogging through miles upon miles so he decided that he would break down these runs into intervals to skin the cat another way. The way he done this was by having some crazy workouts like 40x100m @mile pace with short recoveries which would replicate steady aerobic running because the intervals would be short, the athletes would not be accumulating lactate and if you're not accumulating lactate; you are running aerobically, genius! It meant he could do a lot of really fast running while creating a similar effect to a normal easy or steady run.
Lydiard on the other hand was a slow-twitch runners fantasy, massive volume at moderate intensity; he would prescribe a 100mpw of running between a little faster than Marathon pace and a bit faster than easy pace during base and huge volumes of intervals during specific phase; The idea being that you're hugely strong aerobic runner can take that stimulus and reacts very positively to it. Some Lydiard focused athletes were known to run 200mpw at times.
Time has probably passed by those coaches at the top level today, definitely Igloi anyway but that doesn't take anything away from their messages. they are two extreme opposing examples of training approach and the answer probably lies somewhere in between but something I used to illustrate the point that there are many ways to skin a cat and your starting point and approach is hugely dependent on the most important aspect of training; The athlete.
Super post and probably deserves its own thread to debate its merits.0 -
Just like to say thanks for all the posts on this thread, some great advice and great stuff here.0
-
Advertisement
-
Can you mentally treat the difficult part of the race like a training run? Imagine the people around you are your training buddies and you are going to keep up with them and run in a pack. Wish them a good run in your head. Say to the guy next to you, "come on". This keeps you focused on running with the group and away from focusing on you.
Then look for a slightly faster running group and do the same or hold in the same group if the pace is good.0
Advertisement