Who is at fault here?

GreeBo

Sadb wrote: »

Does anyone else have
“The red car and the blue car had a race, all red wants to do is stuff his face, he eats everything he sees, from trucks to prickly trees, but smart old blue, he took the Milky Way”

stuck in their head?
No? Just me?

I do now!:(

TheChizler

GhostyMcGhost wrote: »

Hi All

Sorry for the crude drawing.

This image was cropped for me on mobile so it's only now I'm seeing the arrows on the entrance, strange.

The arrows imply the left lane entering from 6 o'clock must exit at 12, no ambiguity about the red car being the one at fault. If red wanted to carry around in the left lane there's no (legal) problem doing that, they just have to wait until blue is past, and cross the lane carefully.

sKeith

Seems like rules of the road literature have changed since I read the rules of road last or maybe driving instructors are teaching people their own interpretation of the rules.

As i recall it, left lane is for exit 1 and 2.
Right lane is for exit 2 and above.

There was no mention of clocks in the round about section at all. No 12 o'clock anything.

The rules were quite simple, as anybody who is in left lane is either already off the roundabout (exit 1), or is exiting the same exit as the person in the right hand lane.

By these rules, blue is in the wrong. They are using the right hand land and exiting the roundabout at exit 1, which they should not be doing. They must continue around to exit 2 or greater if using the right hand lane.

grogi

sKeith wrote: »

Seems like rules of the road literature have changed since I read the rules of road last or maybe driving instructors are teaching people their own interpretation of the rules.

As i recall it, left lane is for exit 1 and 2.
Right lane is for exit 2 and above.

That convention is much better. The most

sKeith wrote: »

There was no mention of clocks in the round about section at all. No 12 o'clock anything.

That o'clock rule is simply ridiculous and the only place I have ever seen it is the RSA leaflet. As pointed out previously, a driver doesn't have a navigational equipment required to determine if the intended exit has heading at -5° or +5°. And with that rule that would be a difference between inside and outside lane.

sKeith wrote: »

The rules were quite simple, as anybody who is in left lane is either already off the roundabout (exit 1), or is exiting the same exit as the person in the right hand lane.

By these rules, blue is in the wrong. They are using the right hand land and exiting the roundabout at exit 1, which they should not be doing. They must continue around to exit 2 or greater if using the right hand lane.

Unfortunately those are only conventions, mainly to give the ridiculously designed roundabouts a bit more throughput.

We would need a very simple change to a way we mark the exits from the roundabouts and there would be no ambiguity to anyone...

lawred2

sKeith wrote: »

Seems like rules of the road literature have changed since I read the rules of road last or maybe driving instructors are teaching people their own interpretation of the rules.

As i recall it, left lane is for exit 1 and 2.
Right lane is for exit 2 and above.

There was no mention of clocks in the round about section at all. No 12 o'clock anything.

The rules were quite simple, as anybody who is in left lane is either already off the roundabout (exit 1), or is exiting the same exit as the person in the right hand lane.

By these rules, blue is in the wrong. They are using the right hand land and exiting the roundabout at exit 1, which they should not be doing. They must continue around to exit 2 or greater if using the right hand lane.

nah - unless road markings dictate otherwise then you are supposed to follow the rules for clock positions 12, 3, 6 and 9...

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Leaflets/Leaf_booklets/Roundabouts_DL_2012_v3.pdf

lawred2

grogi wrote: »

That convention is much better. The most



That o'clock rule is simply ridiculous and the only place I have ever seen it is the RSA leaflet. As pointed out previously, a driver doesn't have a navigational equipment required to determine if the intended exit has heading at -5° or +5°. And with that rule that would be a difference between inside and outside lane.



Unfortunately those are only conventions, mainly to give the ridiculously designed roundabouts a bit more throughput.

We would need a very simple change to a way we mark the exits from the roundabouts and there would be no ambiguity to anyone...

it's not that complicated really...

Padraig Mor

Gonna side with the naysayers here and go with Blue being technically in the wrong, as they changed lane without yielding to traffic in the lane they were entering - which is in direct contravention on the actual law while, as I understand it, all the various guidance on roundabout usage exists only in the ROTR, and not the actual law itself. In reality, I'd call it 50/50 - red is obviously an idiot, and Blue should have been paying more attention rather than just barreling through presuming where Red was going.

Caliden

Question is, who ran in to who?

Did the red car run into the side of the blue or vice versa?

stimpson

sKeith wrote: »

Seems like rules of the road literature have changed since I read the rules of road last or maybe driving instructors are teaching people their own interpretation of the rules.

As i recall it, left lane is for exit 1 and 2.
Right lane is for exit 2 and above.

There was no mention of clocks in the round about section at all. No 12 o'clock anything.

The rules were quite simple, as anybody who is in left lane is either already off the roundabout (exit 1), or is exiting the same exit as the person in the right hand lane.

By these rules, blue is in the wrong. They are using the right hand land and exiting the roundabout at exit 1, which they should not be doing. They must continue around to exit 2 or greater if using the right hand lane.

Those rules are to be read in the absence of road markings. Where there are arrows on the road they supersede this. As per the OPs post, Blue is correct as the arrow in the right hand lane show straight ahead.

But I agree with you on the old rules. They were unambiguous. Changing the rules was a stupid idea as you now have 2 sets of people thought to use a roundabout in different ways. Slow clap for the RSA.

grogi

lawred2 wrote: »

nah - unless road markings dictate otherwise then you are supposed to follow the rules for clock positions 12, 3, 6 and 9...

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Leaflets/Leaf_booklets/Roundabouts_DL_2012_v3.pdf

This unfortunate leaflet is quoted and quoted again. But what is it based on? What is the law they derive that convention?

I could create a similar leaflet instructing people exiting between 3 and 3:15 to drive only in reverse. If there isn't any law to support it, what would make it significant in determining fault?

I have said it before. RSA was founded to promote safety. Ironically that particular publication has a reverse effect.

grogi

lawred2 wrote: »

it's not that complicated really...

The simple fact that every roundabout question reaches at least 10 pages shows it is at least misunderstood and ambiguous.

lawred2

grogi wrote: »

This unfortunate leaflet is quoted and quoted again. But what is it based on? What is the law they derive that convention?

I could create a similar leaflet instructing people exiting between 3 and 3:15 to drive only in reverse. If there isn't any law to support it, what would make it significant in determining fault?

I have said it before. RSA was founded to promote safety. Ironically that particular publication has a reverse effect.

I don't think there is any legislation for this - it's an advisory convention

grogi

lawred2 wrote: »

I don't think there is any legislation for this - it's an advisory convention

Is there maybe a precedent then that established those this convention as an important matter in determining fault?

What happens when the advisory changes? When RSA releases a new version of the convention, from when is it in force?
All those question show that we simply cannot rely on a RSA publication in that manner.

Don't get me wrong - it is generally a good practice to follow their advice, but it should not be done blindly nor violate the actual laws of the road. Suddenly entering into other vehicle path is such violation. Unfortunately this leaflet give the impression it is the right thing to do. I honestly believe RSA should retract it and start to promote for spiral rbs - among planners and engineers - which are far less ambiguous. And as such, they have much bigger capacity.

Trasna1

grogi wrote: »

Is there maybe a precedent then that established those this convention as an important matter in determining fault?

What happens when the advisory changes? When RSA releases a new version of the convention, from when is it in force?

All those question show that we simply cannot rely on a RSA publication in that manner. It is generally a good practice to follow their advice, but it should not be done blindly nor violate the actual laws of the road.

The advisory in this case doesn't violate the laws of the road. In fact it's the only way for the roundabout to function properly with max throughput.

sKeith

lawred2 wrote: »

nah - unless road markings dictate otherwise then you are supposed to follow the rules for clock positions 12, 3, 6 and 9...

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Leaflets/Leaf_booklets/Roundabouts_DL_2012_v3.pdf

In that literature, under the section 'golden rule' why insert the word 'generally' for right hand lane use. It just makes me think they don't know what they are talking about.


Also, last roundabout picture, left lane can be used for exiting exit 2, if no local signage prohibits it.



I believe this is why they added the word generally, because its not a golden rule at all. Its a this works in 95% of cases, sort of semi-golden rule of thumb.

grogi

Trasna1 wrote: »

The advisory in this case doesn't violate the laws of the road.

No. The drivers blindly following it violate them.

In fact it's the only way for the roundabout to function properly with max throughput.

Wasn't it me that mentioned the throughput a few posts before? You're right - those conventions are designed mainly to maximise throughput. But is the max throughput a goal in its own? Maybe we should increase the allowed speed and on signalised junctions reduce the amber light period? Both could increase the throughput...

cruizer101

Oh the red car and the blue car had a race
All that red could do was smash his face
he didn't follow the rules
like lots of cars driven by fools
but smart old blue he took his right of way

hi5

grogi wrote: »

That o'clock rule is simply ridiculous and the only place I have ever seen it is the RSA leaflet. As pointed out previously, a driver doesn't have a navigational equipment required to determine if the intended exit has heading at -5° or +5°. And with that rule that would be a difference between inside and outside lane.

The 12 o'clock rule is based on the approach sign...

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3179883,-6.3345241,3a,37.5y,114.87h,92.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLQ5muGddwnle1bJCw7gMuQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

sKeith

hi5 wrote: »

The 12 o'clock rule is based on the approach sign...

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3179883,-6.3345241,3a,37.5y,114.87h,92.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLQ5muGddwnle1bJCw7gMuQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The link shows the Walkinstown roundabout, which is not covered in the o'clock document at all. This is a three lane roundabout with mostly three lane entrances, only one entrance has the two lanes the document talks about.
If you were to follow the documentation, nobody would use the middle lane.

stimpson

sKeith wrote: »

The link shows the Walkinstown roundabout, which is not covered in the o'clock document at all. This is a three lane roundabout with mostly three lane entrances, only one entrance has the two lanes the document talks about.
If you were to follow the documentation, nobody would use the middle lane.

The correct procedure at Walkinstown is to bless yourself, watch for a hit of a gap then floor it and hope for the best.

hi5

If nobody used the middle lane there wouldn't be any ambiguity (or accidents), maybe that's the intention, a free lane for those who find themselves in the wrong lane.
Also the last picture in the document is wrong, which probably shows that whoever drew it doesn't quite understand the rule either.
12 o'clock is only relevant if your approaching from 6 o'clock, but approaching from 6 o'clock in the picture means your coming from across the fields.

khaldrogo

Wildly Boaring wrote:

Why is this even a question?

The pedantics like to try to upset people.

Yes the blue car should have been watch the red car, anticipating something but the red car is still a clown

Trasna1

grogi wrote: »

No. The drivers blindly following it violate them.



.

Drivers blindly following the rules of the road and being well behaved is not something I'd get annoyed about. I reserve that for the rule breakers.

Hold on now, you've said earlier blue car was at fault for crossing the non existent line of a non existent lane. Indeed you quoted the SI.

Either the RSA RotR is right or you are. Which is it?

Doff

The fact people are even saying blue is in the wrong in this thread is horrifying.

GhostyMcGhost

Caliden wrote: »

Question is, who ran in to who?

Did the red car run into the side of the blue or vice versa?

Lets just say the red car is damaged at passenger door on drivers side
blue car, damaged dead on centre bumper

Sadb

grogi wrote: »

Is there maybe a precedent then that established those this convention as an important matter in determining fault?

What happens when the advisory changes? When RSA releases a new version of the convention, from when is it in force?
All those question show that we simply cannot rely on a RSA publication in that manner.

Don't get me wrong - it is generally a good practice to follow their advice, but it should not be done blindly nor violate the actual laws of the road. Suddenly entering into other vehicle path is such violation. Unfortunately this leaflet give the impression it is the right thing to do. I honestly believe RSA should retract it and start to promote for spiral rbs - among planners and engineers - which are far less ambiguous. And as such, they have much bigger capacity.

If you look at the layout, (of any roundabout really) the red car is actually the one that is suddenly entering into another vehicles path, changing lanes. The blue car didn’t change lanes at all.
Do you think that drivers should flout all rules of the road because they aren’t law? Would you pass your driving test by not adhering to the rules of the road?

jaxxx

Doff wrote: »

The fact people are even saying blue is in the wrong in this thread is horrifying.

Scary isn't it? Just goes to show how many people out there are clueless when it comes to the basics of roundabout usage.

The Backwards Man

Doff wrote: »

The fact people are even saying blue is in the wrong in this thread is horrifying.

No one is saying they are in the wrong.

Put it another way;

There's a car barreling on the wrong side of the road towards you.

Do you carry on regardless as you are in the 'right' or do you take evasive action?

Quandary

Doff wrote: »

The fact people are even saying blue is in the wrong in this thread is horrifying.

It is actually terrifying.

Only last week in Swords I was in this exact situation (me the blue car) when a lady (red car) tried to take the third exit while being in the outside lane. I had to slam on the breaks to avoid a crash and was very nearly rear ended for my troubles. The woman drove on completely oblivious to the carnage she had very nearly left in her wake.

I learned a harsh lesson a few years ago when a lady drove into my driver side when she thought she had a right of way to turn right. She tried to claim I was at fault despite her being completely the cause of the accident. After a long protracted affair her insurance company paid out to cover the nearly 3k worth of damage.

The safest way to drive is to assume that every other driver is prone to being incompetent and always always be alert and ready to react. Oh, and get a dash cam, I got one after that incident and it does actually give you a little peace of mind.

Henry Ford III

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Oh dear.

How does this post help?

Elaborate if you can

Trasna1

68 lost souls wrote: »

The blue car has to cross the red car to exit the roundabout so they are responsible to check the lane is clear but you could also argue that left lane is for left or straight only

TheChizler wrote: »

If the lanes on the roundabout were concentric circles the red car would have been staying in its lane and the blue car would have crossed lanes without yielding. Common enough on roundabouts with no 9 o'clock exit. OP needs more details.

grogi wrote: »

Yes. "A driver shall not drive from one traffic lane to another without good cause, and without yielding the right of way to traffic in that other lane." (S.I. No. 294/1964, Section 17 (3)"



I wasn't. It would be useless to me, as I am often confused if my exit is at five to twelve or five past twelve...

There is nothing however preventing you from doing so if you wish. Or doing completely opposite... Just remember: yield when crossing dotted line.

The Backwards Man wrote: »

No one is saying they are in the wrong.

Put it another way;

There's a car barreling on the wrong side of the road towards you.

Do you carry on regardless as you are in the 'right' or do you take evasive action?

Eh. Yeah they are.

jaxxx

Deleted User wrote: »

How does this post help?

Elaborate if you can

You really need to be told? Alright then. Basically what Mr.Ford was saying was you couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Specifically, the part where you said "but both are wrong". 0% of the blame can be placed on blue, except perhaps maybe no reacting the correct way or wasn't paying attention to what red was doing, etc. For the purposes of this general discussion, everyone is just focusing on lane usage and lane usage alone. In which case, as I have previously mentioned, in no way is blue at fault for anything as this is a dual lane entry and exit roundabout, where the general golden rule is stretched slightly whereby allowing a 12 o'clock exit while in the right hand lane, something which would normally obviously be wrong.

porsche boy

The RSA rules of the road would dictate the red car is in the wrong.

BarryD2

warsaw2018 wrote: »

red car in wrong lane
blue car at fault

Yes clearly the red car should keep to the right lane as they approach this roundabout if they intend going all the way around. Also at very least they should be signalling right if they 'accidentally' end up in the left lane and want to continue around.

But clearly too the blue car has no business cutting across the path of the red and assuming right of way. The blue car is changing lanes in effect and crossing the left lane to exit the roundabout. So they should be looking in their mirror or over shoulder to see that this is clear.

My pet hate with roundabouts is with people who just charge onto them. You arrive clearly ahead of another car coming in from a different road on your right. You slow down in case they're an idiot and they just sail blithely through as if they have all the right in the world.

lawred2

BarryD2 wrote: »

Yes clearly the red car should keep to the right lane as they approach this roundabout if they intend going all the way around. Also at very least they should be signalling right if they 'accidentally' end up in the left lane and want to continue around.

But clearly too the blue car has no business cutting across the path of the red and assuming right of way. The blue car is changing lanes in effect and crossing the left lane to exit the roundabout. So they should be looking in their mirror or over shoulder to see that this is clear.

My pet hate with roundabouts is with people who just charge onto them. You arrive clearly ahead of another car coming in from a different road on your right. You slow down in case they're an idiot and they just sail blithely through as if they have all the right in the world.

road markings indicated that both approaching lanes were for travelling straight on...

there was no case of "changing lanes"

the above is bizarre reasoning

BarryD2

lawred2 wrote: »

road markings indicated that both approaching lanes were for travelling straight on...

there was no case of "changing lanes"

the above is bizarre reasoning

There are two lanes discussed in the OP - they talk of the inside lane and the outside lane (personally I would tend to think that the inside lane is always the one to the left, the op seems to switch these on their mythical roundabout).

Where there are lanes involved I always signal and look before changing from one to another. That seems like a basic common sense principle.

In this instance, the blue car should be signalling left to exit the roundabout and checking that it's safe to do so. Forget what you think the rules of the road are, apply common and practical sense.

lawred2

BarryD2 wrote: »

There are two lanes discussed in the OP - they talk of the inside lane and the outside lane (personally I would tend to think that the inside lane is always the one to the left, the op seems to switch these on their mythical roundabout).

Where there are lanes involved I always signal and look before changing from one to another. That seems like a basic common sense principle.

In this instance, the blue car should be signalling left to exit the roundabout and looking. Forget what you think the rules of the road are, apply common and practical sense.

sure - but there is only one car in the wrong and that's the red car.

obviously in real life - driver of the blue car will hopefully be vigilant enough to take action and avoid a collision but should they fail to be in a position to avoid the collision then the blame lies squarely with the driver in the red car for using the outside lane to go beyond the 12 o clock position on the roundabout.

TheChizler

Trasna1 wrote: »

Eh. Yeah they are.

Total misrepresentation of those posts, and the OP clarified some information since some were made.

CeilingFly

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Red is wrong all day long.

Why is this even a question?

100% correct but quite frightening to see so many posters claim otherwise.

Only exception is where indicated by signage.

Even the Rules of road have a similar diagram.

and here's loads more

https://www.google.ie/search?q=2+lane+roundabout+straight+ahead&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjE0L7gw_7cAhXKCMAKHQfUBSsQ_AUICigB&biw=1280&bih=838#imgrc=_

BarryD2

lawred2 wrote: »

sure - but there is only one car in the wrong and that's the red car.

obviously in real life - driver of the blue car will hopefully be vigilant enough to take action and avoid a collision but should they fail to be in a position to avoid the collision then the blame lies squarely with the driver in the red car for using the outside lane to go beyond the 12 o clock position on the roundabout.

That's the issue - the blue car should not be in a position whereby they drive into the car on the lane inside them. They should be signalling to exit the roundabout and checking what the car on the left is doing.

If the blue car having done this exits left to leave and whilst doing so, the red car crashes into them, they have a reasonable case.

But if the blue car hits the red car, then clearly they haven't been taking due care.

CeilingFly

BarryD2 wrote: »

Yes clearly the red car should keep to the right lane as they approach this roundabout if they intend going all the way around. Also at very least they should be signalling right if they 'accidentally' end up in the left lane and want to continue around.

But clearly too the blue car has no business cutting across the path of the red and assuming right of way. The blue car is changing lanes in effect and crossing the left lane to exit the roundabout. So they should be looking in their mirror or over shoulder to see that this is clear.

My pet hate with roundabouts is with people who just charge onto them. You arrive clearly ahead of another car coming in from a different road on your right. You slow down in case they're an idiot and they just sail blithely through as if they have all the right in the world.

the blue car is not changing lanes - it approached in lane two and continued through the roundabout to continue on the road in lane 2

By your assumption the red car could go round and round all day long and be "right" as its "staying in the lane"

frozenfrozen

GreeBo wrote: »

Whats the obvious hazard?

If red car is behind blue car, but still in the left lane, then why on earth would the blue car be predicting that the red car was going to cut across them?

whatever you do, don't ever cycle or ride a motorbike anywhere because you will die if you think like that

sKeith

If there was a collision,


I'd blame blue car in 1. and red car in 2.

BarryD2

CeilingFly wrote: »

the blue car is not changing lanes - it approached in lane two and continued through the roundabout to continue on the road in lane 2

By your assumption the red car could go round and round all day long and be "right" as its "staying in the lane"

Yes cars can and sometime do go round & round a roundabout, that's not an offence, is it?

Clearly the red car should keep to the right lane if they intend going around.

But the OP and common sense says there ARE lanes, whether marked or implied on this roundabout - there is room for two car lanes. The blue car in the outside lane as they approach the roundabout continue around and is crossing the left or inside lane as they choose to exit. So they should be signalling and checking, as with any lane/ junction change.

That's the mindset you need for avoiding accidents.

BarryD2

sKeith wrote: »

If there was a collision,


I'd blame blue car in 1. and red car in 2.

Yes I would agree, assuming that the blue car has signaled their intention to exit left and checked in their mirror.

TheChizler

sKeith wrote: »

If there was a collision,


I'd blame blue car in 1. and red car in 2.

Not sure it's so simple. There are actual lane markings on this roundabout unlike the OP. If you squint it looks like the red car is crossing a lane while the blue doesn't (eyesight dependent).

Sadb

BarryD2 wrote: »

Yes cars can and sometime do go round & round a roundabout, that's not an offence, is it?

Clearly the red car should keep to the right lane if they intend going around.

But the OP and common sense says there ARE lanes, whether marked or implied on this roundabout - there is room for two car lanes. The blue car in the outside lane as they approach the roundabout continue around and is crossing the left or inside lane as they choose to exit. So they should be signalling and checking, as with any lane/ junction change.

That's the mindset you need for avoiding accidents.

Nope, the blue car is not crossing any lanes. they would only be crossing lanes if they started off in the right hand lane and were trying to get into the left hand lane after the roundabout, which clearly they are not.

GreeBo

khaldrogo wrote: »

The pedantics like to try to upset people.

Yes the blue car should have been watch the red car, anticipating something but the red car is still a clown

"pedants"

You are welcome. :cool:

Trasna1

BarryD2 wrote: »

That's the issue - the blue car should not be in a position whereby they drive into the car on the lane inside them. They should be signalling to exit the roundabout and checking what the car on the left is doing.

If the blue car having done this exits left to leave and whilst doing so, the red car crashes into them, they have a reasonable case.

But if the blue car hits the red car, then clearly they haven't been taking due care.

Traffic on the right has right of way.

I really can't believe that we are still discussing how a driver that was cut up on a roundabout could be at fault for causing an accident. It really makes me wonder who I'm sharing the road with.

GreeBo

BarryD2 wrote: »

Yes clearly the red car should keep to the right lane as they approach this roundabout if they intend going all the way around. Also at very least they should be signalling right if they 'accidentally' end up in the left lane and want to continue around.

But clearly too the blue car has no business cutting across the path of the red and assuming right of way. The blue car is changing lanes in effect and crossing the left lane to exit the roundabout. So they should be looking in their mirror or over shoulder to see that this is clear.

My pet hate with roundabouts is with people who just charge onto them. You arrive clearly ahead of another car coming in from a different road on your right. You slow down in case they're an idiot and they just sail blithely through as if they have all the right in the world.

If the red car finds themselves in the wrong lane, at BEST they should indicate and wait until their way is clear. Their way is NOT clear if the blue car is exiting correctly.

Frankly the Red car should suck it up and exit and double back when possible.
Its this attitude that leads to people reversing up the hard shoulder to take a motorway exit they missed.