Who is at fault here?

Mellor

This thread is crazy, and really confirm that people have no clue how to use roundabouts. It's not about the o'clock position, the lane you are in, who gets where first etc. It's simply being in the right lane, and yielding if you need to cross a lane.

The ignorance of the people is largely due to laziness of councils and other with crap road markings.

68 lost souls wrote: »

The blue car has to cross the red car to exit the roundabout so they are responsible to check the lane is clear...

The Backwards Man wrote: »

The question was who would be at fault in the event of a collision. That's the car that left their lane just because they were in the 'right'.

bluewolf wrote: »

I have to agree with these- the blue car was the one changing lanes, and someone being in the wrong lane doesn't make it ok to barrel into them just because they should not be there. Even though it's awfully tempting !!

The OPs sketch is too basic to know who did what. You shouldn't being crossing a lane when exiting.
If you draw on lane markings are direction arrows on the approach. It's very clear who is at fault.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

how is any traffic on the inner lane of a roundabout supposed to leave a roundabout if outer lanes don't yield to it ?

The outer lanes don't yield as you cross them, the outer lanes leave the roundabout and the inner lane is the outer lane for the nest junction.

grogi wrote: »

Stop and wait until it has free way. Basic stuff really.

You should never need to do that at a properly marked roundabout.

BarryD2

Sadb wrote: »

Even if there are no road markings on this particular roundabout, the absence of road marking do not make it acceptable to drive whatever way you wish. If you are driving on a country road with no centre line (of which many don’t) is it then acceptable to drive on the right hand side?

This is the point - in the OP's example, lanes may not be painted on their roundabout, but they are implied wher the roundabout is clearly two lanes wide and and the roads leading in and exiting are two lanes wide.

Trasna1 wrote: »

When it comes to the Rules of the Road, questioning them and doing your own thing really aren't good things. Everyone needs to work of the same rulebook, for it to work safely.

The Rules of the Road are a guide, they set out basic principles but of course they can't cover all situations and drivers must use their own experience of what other drivers do to travel safely. If the speed limit is 100 kph, that don't mean everyone must drive at/ near 100 kph etc etc.

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Red car is at fault. No it's or buts. It's in the wrong lane and is responsible for any collision as a result of that. Blue driver has no obligation to look left.

Well, all we can hope for is that we don't meet you on a roundabout! The driver of the blue car clearly has an obligation to signal & watch what is happening on the left lane inside them, as they cross it and exit the roundabout.

Of course reality is quite different. Travel any dual carriageway / motorway in Ireland and you'll see plenty of drivers going from one lane to the other and they couldn't be arsed to signal. Likewise on roundabouts, you'll see them sail around and expect everyone else to know that they are taking a particular turn.

lawred2

BarryD2 wrote: »

Well, all we can hope for is that we don't meet you on a roundabout! The driver of the blue car clearly has an obligation to signal & watch what is happening on the left lane inside them, as they cross it and exit the roundabout.

you've used this trope a number of times. Not one person has claimed that the blue car shouldn't be aware of what's to his left..

he of course needs to be when there are drivers who think its perfectly acceptable to travel around a roundabout in the outside line.

that still doesn't reduce red car's responsibility for incorrect use of a roundabout.

you are one that most people should be fearful of meeting on a roundabout.

1983ish

BarryD2 wrote: »

Well, all we can hope for is that we don't meet you on a roundabout! The driver of the blue car clearly has an obligation to signal & watch what is happening on the left lane inside them, as they cross it and exit the roundabout.

.

No he doesn’t the red car should have exited straight ahead in lane 1
This is going around in roundabouts
There is no hope for some people

grogi

Mellor wrote: »

You should never need to do that at a properly marked roundabout.

I see you pasted a diagram of a spiral rb

I simply don't understand why there is so much resistance against them in Ireland...

Henry Ford III

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Red car is at fault. No it's or buts. It's in the wrong lane and is responsible for any collision as a result of that. Blue driver has no obligation to look left.

Oh dear :pac:

lawred2

lawred2 wrote: »

you've used this trope a number of times. Not one person has claimed that the blue car shouldn't be aware of what's to his left..

he of course needs to be when there are drivers who think its perfectly acceptable to travel around a roundabout in the outside line.

that still doesn't reduce red car's responsibility for incorrect use of a roundabout.

you are the one that most people should be fearful of meeting on a roundabout.

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh dear :pac:

lol

ok one person said that the car in blue shouldn't be aware of what's to his left..

imagine Barry and Henry on the same roundabout

the_pen_turner

red car 100% wrong.

blue can might be able to avoid if there was time but there wouldnt be. if both cars go straight then the gap between them should be 3-4 feet all the time.
the first time the blue driver can see that the red car isnt driving correctly is when the gap starts closing rapidly. there just isnt enough time to react

martingriff

Red at fault however with insurance blue could be at fault as he crashed into car. They did not show due car. Was indicator on (yea it's a thing) plus if going into a lane should check for traffic in oùtside lane and if so yield as you would have no crash. 2 pieces of advice I was given 1 drive like the person in front does not know the rules of the road and 2 drive ad if no one knows the rules if the road

GreeBo

TheChizler wrote: »

Hold on now, exactly what lane marking, and I presume you mean the lines separating lanes, is being crossed? In the OP's case I agree the red is crossing the implied lanes to continue round but The Backwards Man said every single roundabout.

Well on every roundabout you are at the very least merging into a lane (the lane on the roundabout)
On any 2 lane roundabout to get into RHS then you are crossing the first lane.

But I think this argument is irrelevant tbh, roundabouts are designed to be used a certain way, red car went against this so they are at fault.

Others are blaming the blue car if they hit the red car, but there are countless situations where car A hits car B but it was 100% the fault of car B.

Borderfox

CalamariFritti wrote: »

The Backwards Man wrote: »

People need to realise that being an asshole and being in the wrong are not the same thing. Red car is an idiot, blue car left their lane and hit them.

More evidence that the majority of drivers shouldn't be on the road.

That.

Most people can't turn a corner without ending up in the opposite lane. Let alone situations with ambiguity and judgement.

Imagine if we ever had flying cars. The daily death toll would be in the millions.

That's generally because people are too lazy to turn the steering wheel

GreeBo

martingriff wrote: »

Red at fault however with insurance blue could be at fault as he crashed into car. They did not show due car. Was indicator on (yea it's a thing) plus if going into a lane should check for traffic in oùtside lane and if so yield as you would have no crash. 2 pieces of advice I was given 1 drive like the person in front does not know the rules of the road and 2 drive ad if no one knows the rules if the road

What if the red car is going at twice the speed of the blue car?
Conceivably the blue car had no opportunity to avoid the red car.

BarryD2

lawred2 wrote: »

you've used this trope a number of times. Not one person has claimed that the blue car shouldn't be aware of what's to his left..

he of course needs to be when there are drivers who think its perfectly acceptable to travel around a roundabout in the outside line.

that still doesn't reduce red car's responsibility for incorrect use of a roundabout.

you are one that most people should be fearful of meeting on a roundabout.

LOL, if I was driving the red car, realised I was in an inappropriate lane and wanted to continue around, I'd sure as hell be signalling and checking over my right shoulder in case others were trying to cut across my path. That doesn't absolve you or Henry Ford above from checking what's on your inside if you want to exit left off the roundabout.

Off topic, why do people persist in calling the left lane on a roundabout the 'outside' lane?? If you're driving on a dual carriageway, the left lane is the inside lane and the right lane is the outside (overtaking) lane. Why when you reach a roundabout, do you suddenly decide to switch terms! Talk about confusing.

lawred2

BarryD2 wrote: »

LOL, if I was driving the red car, realised I was in an inappropriate lane and wanted to continue around, I'd sure as hell be signalling and checking over my right shoulder in case others were trying to cut across my path. That doesn't absolve you or Henry Ford above from checking what's on your inside if you want to exit left off the roundabout.

Off topic, why do people persist in calling the left lane on a roundabout the 'outside' lane?? If you're driving on a dual carriageway, the left lane is the inside lane and the right lane is the outside lane. Why when you reach a roundabout, do you suddenly decide to switch terms! Talk about confusing.

because it's the outside of the circle

hardly rocket science

I wouldn't use outside lane as a term for dual carriageway or motorway personally but I've heard it used.

grogi

GreeBo wrote: »

Well on every roundabout you are at the very least merging into a lane (the lane on the roundabout)
On any 2 lane roundabout to get into RHS then you are crossing the first lane.

But I think this argument is irrelevant tbh, roundabouts are designed to be used a certain way, red car went against this so they are at fault.

The whole problem is they are not.

The newly redone N20 RB in Mallow is a prime example. It hosts the Cork-Limerick traffic with 2+2 carriageway coming from both North and South sides. Yet it still uses the 19th century circular markings...

martingriff

GreeBo wrote: »

What if the red car is going at twice the speed of the blue car?
Conceivably the blue car had no opportunity to avoid the red car.

Mirrors for use not only in test. I would not see how could not see unless red doing 100 on roundabout

by8auj6csd3ioq

if you follow the road markings you can't turn right. There should be a straight ahead and a right turn arrow in the right lane if a right turn is allowed

GreeBo

martingriff wrote: »

Mirrors for use not only in test. I would not see how could not see unless red doing 100 on roundabout

Well on a roundabout someone behind you in a lane to your left could actually be on your right hand side, most people wouldnt look over their right shoulder before turning left...?

grogi

lawred2 wrote: »

because it's the outside of the circle

hardly rocket science

I wouldn't use outside lane as a term for dual carriageway or motorway personally but I've heard it used.

It is a proper term - and inside lane means the left one (closer to the left curb), while outside is the right one (further from the left curb). Funnily they get switch when talking about lanes in the RB

And that's why I avoid using those terms completely too.

GreeBo

grogi wrote: »

The whole problem is they are not.

The newly redone N20 RB in Mallow is a prime example. It hosts the Cork-Limerick traffic with 2+2 carriageway coming from both North and South sides. Yet it still uses the 19th century circular markings...

I treat every roundabout as a spiral roundabout, otherwise its not possible to use them without everyone having to use the green cross code before each exit.

I dont think the circular lane markings actually mean anything other and a vain attempt to try stop people from going straight on rally style and cutting off the right hand lane.:o

grogi

Blaine Grumpy Warship wrote: »

if you follow the road markings you can't turn right. There should be a straight ahead and a right turn arrow in the right lane if a right turn is allowed

Oh Lord.

The directional arrows are important only at the moment of entering the RB. If you intend to continue in particular direction, you are suppose to enter from particular lane. They don't say anything about how you should behave at the roundabout though, you are free to change lanes (provided you yield to the traffic in the lane you want to change to and if this not prohibited by solid lane dividers of course) and do other things that are allowed by Traffic Laws.

lawred2

grogi wrote: »

It is a proper term - and inside lane means the left one (closer to the left curb), while outside is the right one (further from the left curb). Funnily they get switch when talking about lanes in the RB

And that's why I avoid using those terms completely too.

I think it's easier to keep it to left, middle and right lanes

GreeBo

grogi wrote: »

It is a proper term - and inside lane means the left one (closer to the left curb), while outside is the right one (further from the left curb). Funnily they get switch when talking about lanes in the RB

And that's why I avoid using those terms completely too.

i guess its because there are curbs equidistant on both sides!

martingriff

GreeBo wrote: »

Well on a roundabout someone behind you in a lane to your left could actually be on your right hand side, most people wouldnt look over their right shoulder before turning left...?

Sorry what

GreeBo

martingriff wrote: »

Sorry what

Its a circle, so if you are in right hand lane another car in the left hand lane can actually be oriented to your right, depending on how far behind you they are.

Put it another way, a car can be so far behind you on a roundabout that they are ahead of you.

sKeith

GreeBo wrote: »

Its a circle, so if you are in right hand lane another car in the left hand lane can actually be oriented to your right, depending on how far behind you they are.

Put it another way, a car can be so far behind you on a roundabout that they are ahead of you.

If they are so far ahead of you or behind you, then you are safe to change lanes and exit roundabout if you wish.

martingriff

GreeBo wrote: »

Its a circle, so if you are in right hand lane another car in the left hand lane can actually be oriented to your right, depending on how far behind you they are.

Put it another way, a car can be so far behind you on a roundabout that they are ahead of you.

Ok I get you would be a fair bit back and be bombing it but blue car would still need to show more care when crossing lanes

goat2

GhostyMcGhost wrote: »

Hi All

Sorry for the crude drawing.

In the below scenario, there is a roundabout which essentially just for calming. In this situation, there are 2 lanes leading up to the roundabout and 2 lanes at the only exit (12 midnight)

There are no directional arrows marked on the road, only 2 yield markings in each lane. Its marked as 2 lanes (i.e not a single lane with double queueing)

If the red car, on the outside lane, turns right to go back around the roundabout (and back to where they started, no other exits) and the blue car, on inside lane is continuing straight.... In your opinion, who is at fault for the below scenario? The red or blue car?

They are both wrong, both entered on wrong lane for the direction they were taking, Red should have been on inside lane, and blue on outside, both did not know how to use a round about, and a very simple roundabout at that

GreeBo

sKeith wrote: »

If they are so far ahead of you or behind you, then you are safe to change lanes and exit roundabout if you wish.

Depending on what speed they are doing though, if Red car is moving significantly faster than blue car then blue car can check, indicate, take the exit and then bang, red car has cut them off.

You cant expect blue car to keep checking their left as the exit a roundabout correctly, that would be far more dangerous and arguably why we have rules on how to use a roundabout, so people dont need a 360* view of their car.

GreeBo

goat2 wrote: »

They are both wrong, both entered on wrong lane for the direction they were taking, Red should have been on inside lane, and blue on outside, both did not know how to use a round about, and a very simple roundabout at that

Blue has a choice of 2 lanes for going straight on since there are 2 lanes on exit.

goat2

GreeBo wrote: »

Blue has a choice of 2 lanes for going straight on since there are 2 lanes on exit.

Red then should have placed themselves in the proper position entering the roundabout

Fieldsman

If worries me greatly that 'The Rape Of Lucretia' might hold a licence and driving on our roads. My wife had a accident in exactly the same position as the blue car and the red car insurers thought i I possibly be a soft touch suggesting both cars were at fault. I asked them did they have a different Rules of the Road booklet and then they admitted being the cause of the accident.

goat2

They both entered roundabout on the wrong lane

lawred2

goat2 wrote: »

They both entered roundabout on the wrong lane

nope - only one of them did

V8 Interceptor

goat2 wrote: »

They both entered roundabout on the wrong lane

Blue didn't.

TheChizler

GreeBo wrote: »

Well on every roundabout you are at the very least merging into a lane (the lane on the roundabout)
On any 2 lane roundabout to get into RHS then you are crossing the first lane.

Merging maybe but that's not the same as changing lane. And I agree to go right you will be crossing a lane marking coming from the right, but that's not changing lane either. Otherwise people going straight on at crossroads would be changing lanes. Maybe it's technically correct but beyond the level most people need to understand how roads work in order to be safe drivers.

Take this as an example:


I don't think anyone could say the red path here is changing lanes, merging maybe but it's a case of two lanes becoming one. The green crosses a lane marking perpendicular but unrelated to it but does not change lanes or alter their course of direction in any way. The blue path crosses a lane marking which later defines the split in its own lane but at the point of crossing they're still very much in their original lane.

goat2

I would never have entered in that way, if I were going straight ahead, I would have entered on outside lane, and if I were going back it would have been inside, but, it is hard to know what other drivers are thinking, But overall, Red was completely wrong, that is my opinion

TheChizler

Mellor wrote: »

This thread is crazy, and really confirm that people have no clue how to use roundabouts. It's not about the o'clock position, the lane you are in, who gets where first etc. It's simply being in the right lane, and yielding if you need to cross a lane.

The ignorance of the people is largely due to laziness of councils and other with crap road markings.






The OPs sketch is too basic to know who did what. You shouldn't being crossing a lane when exiting.
If you draw on lane markings are direction arrows on the approach. It's very clear who is at fault.





The outer lanes don't yield as you cross them, the outer lanes leave the roundabout and the inner lane is the outer lane for the nest junction.


You should never need to do that at a properly marked roundabout.

That's exactly what I imagined the actual markings to be but the OP would have to confirm if the worn markings match that. Spirals are great but even concentric circles (like in Spain) are better than no markings or ones so worn away they might as well not be there.

by8auj6csd3ioq

Oh Lord.

The directional arrows are important only at the moment of entering the RB. If you intend to continue in particular direction, you are suppose to enter from particular lane. They don't say anything about how you should behave at the roundabout though, you are free to change lanes (provided you yield to the traffic in the lane you want to change to and if this not prohibited by solid lane dividers of course) and do other things that are allowed by Traffic Laws. "

Oh Lord
The arrows are to show what lane goes where in terms of exit or  else why are arrows  shown turning right in the right lanes on the actual roads? The right lane in op drawing should be like right lane at https://www.drivingtests.co.nz/roadcode-questions/car/road-position/what-must-you-do-when-turning-right-at-a/ 
In fact if you remove the arrows from the equation both cars are wrong. The blue should have entered in left lane and the red in the right lane as he was turning right

Also on a roundabout when changing lanes you should always check mirror and look over shoulder. You should change lane just after the exit before the one you intend to take so it is often necessary to change lanes.

GreeBo

TheChizler wrote: »

Merging maybe but that's not the same as changing lane. And I agree to go right you will be crossing a lane marking coming from the right, but that's not changing lane either. Otherwise people going straight on at crossroads would be changing lanes. Maybe it's technically correct but beyond the level most people need to understand how roads work in order to be safe drivers.

Take this as an example:


I don't think anyone could say the red path here is changing lanes, merging maybe but it's a case of two lanes becoming one. The green crosses a lane marking perpendicular but unrelated to it but does not change lanes or alter their course of direction in any way. The blue path crosses a lane marking which later defines the split in its own lane but at the point of crossing they're still very much in their original lane.

But there is no lane where the red car passes the blue car....thats not a lane. There may be road markings but there is no lane since under no scenario should a car in the red cars position be doing anything other than exit the roundabout.

The blue car has two valid options from where they are, exit or continue on the roundabout, both are equally valid, the only difference being how they are indicating, so they are potentially in two lanes, I would argue that irrespective of what choice they take, they do not change lanes, its the opposite of a merge, 1 lane becomes 2.


/edit
Ah, your image just loaded for me, so yes, exactly as in your middle/blue example.

Henry Ford III

goat2 wrote:

They are both wrong, both entered on wrong lane for the direction they were taking, Red should have been on inside lane, and blue on outside, both did not know how to use a round about, and a very simple roundabout at that

Blue is entitled use either lane.

phill106

68 lost souls wrote: »

The blue car has to cross the red car to exit the roundabout so they are responsible to check the lane is clear but you could also argue that left lane is for left or straight only

Blue car isnt changing lanes...It is not crossing the red car, it is continuing in the lane it was in.
Red is wrong.

martingriff

GreeBo wrote: »

Depending on what speed they are doing though, if Red car is moving significantly faster than blue car then blue car can check, indicate, take the exit and then bang, red car has cut them off.

You cant expect blue car to keep checking their left as the exit a roundabout correctly, that would be far more dangerous and arguably why we have rules on how to use a roundabout, so people dont need a 360* view of their car.

I see what you did there you missed the step between indicate and take exit. Want to guess what it is. A quick eye dart to mirrors is all it takes

martingriff

phill106 wrote: »

Blue car isnt changing lanes...It is not crossing the red car, it is continuing in the lane it was in.
Red is wrong.

Of course blue is changing lane. He is going from inner to outer. If they are not lanes what are they

TheChizler

martingriff wrote: »

Of course blue is changing lane. He is going from inner to outer. If they are not lanes what are they

Check Mellor's post for a possible layout. Both inner and outer lanes exit at the same time.

Mellor

grogi wrote: »

I see you pasted a diagram of a spiral rb

I simply don't understand why there is so much resistance against them in Ireland...

I have no idea why roundabouts aren't marked like that.. Or marked at all.
But it's very clear (from this thread) that not doing so has created a lot of drivers who are clueless about roundabouts.

Concentric circles are workable for large roundabouts where there is time and space between exits. But on mid sized round about having paths that cross is very dangerous.

clfy39tzve8njq

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Blue is entitled use either lane.

Exactly. Red should have entered in the right hand lane. There's a couple of lads posting here hope I never meet them on a roundabout :-)

TheChizler

Mellor wrote: »

Concentric circles are workable for large roundabouts where there is time and space between exits. But on mid sized round about having paths that cross is very dangerous.

I think they can work well on smaller ones, they're everywhere in Spain, but people are used to them, and at the risk of getting into "the Irish are terrible drivers" rhetoric, mostly careful and considerate when using them.

No reason why councils can't plan for the lowest common denominator and just paint clear spirals though. I'm seeing more and more of them in recent years, maybe they're catching on.

grogi

Aliana Colossal Smorgasbord wrote: »

Exactly. Red should have entered in the right hand lane. There's a couple of lads posting here hope I never meet them on a roundabout :-)

Tell me which Traffic Law says the red to enter from the right hand lane?

And even if they entered from the right lane, they might have switched to the left lane in-between. There is no law prohibiting it.

Mellor

Blaine Grumpy Warship wrote: »

Oh Lord.

The directional arrows are important only at the moment of entering the RB. If you intend to continue in particular direction, you are suppose to enter from particular lane. They don't say anything about how you should behave at the roundabout though, you are free to change lanes (provided you yield to the traffic in the lane you want to change to and if this not prohibited by solid lane dividers of course) and do other things that are allowed by Traffic Laws. "

The arrows also show you the only routes you are allowed to take from that lane if you don't change lane. That's why they are important, they dictate right if way at exits. If the left lane has a forward arrow and the right lane has forward and right arrows. That's mean red was changing and should should have yielded.

In fact if you remove the arrows from the equation both cars are wrong. The blue should have entered in left lane and the red in the right lane as he was turning right

That's incorrect.
There are two entry lanes. And three possible paths (2 lanes straight ahead, and continuing atound). That means that 1 lane can go in two paths. So only one can be wrong. And because there are two lanes at the exits. That implies, even with no arrows, that both lanes can go straight ahead, which means only the right lane can turn.

In short, two lanes on the straight ahead exit mean red car was in the wrong.