Who is at fault here?

ELM327

sKeith wrote: »

A driver in the right hand lane exiting a roundabout at the first exit is highly unusual.

Right lane for 12.00 or further right . Not unusual at all for the first exit to be a two lane setup and at 12.00 making it normal to enter and exit in the right lane

sKeith wrote: »

A driver in the left lane not taking the first exit is not so unusual.

Left lane is for 12.00 or further left. Being in the left lane and "turning right" ie past 12.00 is just plain wrong.

GreeBo

sKeith wrote: »

A driver in the right hand lane exiting a roundabout at the first exit is highly unusual.


A driver in the left lane not taking the first exit is not so unusual.

"first", "second" etc have all been superseded by the "before 12" & "after 12" concept.

Mellor

TheChizler wrote: »

I totally disagree. A directional arrow before a roundabout does not overrule the lane markings on the roundabout itself. There are plenty of roundabouts around the country where the arrows at the entrance have straight on arrows in the right most lane, but if you were to blindly use this lane to go straight on would result in crashes every day. You absolutely have to follow the lanes, and change lanes with regard to other traffic if you need to.

Concentric circles aren't lane markings. As you can't possibly enter or exit them without crossing the circles.
There's nothing wrong with going straight on from a right lane with a straight arrow;
Left lane: Left and Straight arrows
Right lane: Straight and Right arrows
Where is the conflict in those directional arrows? There's only a crash if somebody goes in a direction that's not indicated.

I'll also don't seen any conflicting arrows on those examples you posted. The inner straight on arrows at the entrances are updated to turn arrows before the second exit. If anything they prove that following the arrows avoids conflicts.

DubTony

I read to page 10.

Seriously. How can anyone interpret that blue would be at fault.
Crossing lanes - my arse. I'd be embarrassed if I'd said that in this situation.
This is the type of stuff that makes me want to get a bus. Instead, I'll just ask Grogi and The Backwards Man (and anyone else who thinks blue was at fault) to put details of their cars on here so I can watch out for them when I'm driving.

Even Americans get this, and they can't use roundabouts for crap.

Random Bloke

There are no circumstances where it is appropriate to change lanes without going through the procedures of checking mirror, indicating, and proceeding when it is safe to do so. That's why Blue car carries blame here.

If there was a motorbike driving inside him, by failing to observe safe procedures when changing lane, he could cause serious injury.

Red car is in wrong lane, and will share some blame too.

Took two pieces of poor driving to make this crash happen.

DubTony

Random Bloke wrote: »

There are no circumstances where it is appropriate to change lanes without going through the procedures of checking mirror, indicating, and proceeding when it is safe to do so. That's why Blue car carries blame here.

If there was a motorbike driving inside him, by failing to observe safe procedures when changing lane, he could cause serious injury.

Except blue car isn’t changing lanes. That’s been explained already. What’s so difficult about this?

There’d be no issue with a motorbike or any other vehicle that stayed on its path and went straight out like they should as blue stayed in lane the whole way.

Right hand lane into roundabout.
Right hand lane on roundabout.
And right hand lane out of roundabout.

Random Bloke

DubTony wrote: »

Except blue car isn’t changing lanes. That’s been explained already. What’s so difficult about this?

There’d be no issue with a motorbike or any other vehicle that stayed on its path and went straight out like they should as blue stayed in lane the whole way.

Right hand lane into roundabout.
Right hand lane on roundabout.
And right hand lane out of roundabout.

When you reference the right hand lane on several occasions, it confirms that there is also a left hand lane. Are you suggesting that he did not cross the left hand lane? It is very clear to me that he did indeed traverse the left lane, without due care, and thats why he will definitely be allocated blame for the incident.

Lets pretend there was a cyclist on the roundabout doing a u-turn (360 degree turn). Your logic suggests that the blue car is entitled to ram the cyclist off the road?

Save it for the judge!

GreeBo

Random Bloke wrote: »

When you reference the right hand lane on several occasions, it confirms that there is also a left hand lane. Are you suggesting that he did not cross the left hand lane? It is very clear to me that he did indeed traverse the left lane, without due care, and thats why he will definitely be allocated blame for the incident.

Lets pretend there was a cyclist on the roundabout doing a u-turn (360 degree turn). Your logic suggests that the blue car is entitled to ram the cyclist off the road?

Save it for the judge!

1. The left hand lane continues off at the first exit. There is no left hand lane that continues around the roundabout.
2. Any road user looking to do a u-turn (which is a 180* turn btw, 360* will bring you back to where you started) will be in the right most lane.

ELM327

Random Bloke wrote: »

When you reference the right hand lane on several occasions, it confirms that there is also a left hand lane. Are you suggesting that he did not cross the left hand lane? It is very clear to me that he did indeed traverse the left lane, without due care, and thats why he will definitely be allocated blame for the incident.

Lets pretend there was a cyclist on the roundabout doing a u-turn (360 degree turn). Your logic suggests that the blue car is entitled to ram the cyclist off the road?

Save it for the judge!

It's dangerous to think I may share the roads with this.

DubTony

Random Bloke wrote: »

When you reference the right hand lane on several occasions, it confirms that there is also a left hand lane. Are you suggesting that he did not cross the left hand lane? It is very clear to me that he did indeed traverse the left lane, without due care, and thats why he will definitely be allocated blame for the incident.

Lets pretend there was a cyclist on the roundabout doing a u-turn (360 degree turn). Your logic suggests that the blue car is entitled to ram the cyclist off the road?

Save it for the judge!

Yes I am saying he didn’t cross the left lane. The left lane doesn’t extend past 12 o clock irrespective of lines on the road (unless the road markings say so i.e.. arrows)

A cyclist doing a 360 should use his head and realise that lots of cars will go straight through and that he should keep to the right of them.
I’ll assume you’re referring to roundabouts that have a cycle lane going the full way round on the left side.
In fairness the guy who laid that red tar/drew those lines should be fired/shot given that any cyclist following that route and travelling more than 180 degrees is putting himself in serious danger. I’ve only seen one cyclist use the roundabout in this way and he signaled clearly (good for him. All others I’ve seen have taken the safe right hand side.

Anyway, I’m surprised nobody has referred to this post

Leaving one road and commencing on another is a change of lane. Crossing the direction oncoming traffic travels from when turning right at a T-junction is a change of two lanes, whether there are road markings or not. Going straight ahead at a crossroads of single lane roads is still a change of three lanes even if there is only one lane on both roads.

This is basic stuff.

When another driver cut me off at a junction with 2 lanes turning right, the cop that showed up actually drew him a diagram of how he should use the junction. He used the words “Stay In The Same Lane”

Driving across a junction isn’t regarded as changing lanes.
It’s called driving through a junction.
It’s called Crossing another road.
It’s not and never has been called Changing Lanes.

Now THAT’S basic stuff.

Random Bloke

DubTony wrote: »

Yes I am saying he didn’t cross the left lane. The left lane doesn’t extend past 12 o clock irrespective of lines on the road (unless the road markings say so i.e.. arrows)

A cyclist doing a 360 should use his head and realise that lots of cars will go straight through and that he should keep to the right of them.
I’ll assume you’re referring to roundabouts that have a cycle lane going the full way round on the left side.
In fairness the guy who laid that red tar/drew those lines should be fired/shot given that any cyclist following that route and travelling more than 180 degrees is putting himself in serious danger. I’ve only seen one cyclist use the roundabout in this way and he signaled clearly (good for him. All others I’ve seen have taken the safe right hand side.

Anyway, I’m surprised nobody has referred to this post



When another driver cut me off at a junction with 2 lanes turning right, the cop that showed up actually drew him a diagram of how he should use the junction. He used the words “Stay In The Same Lane”

Driving across a junction isn’t regarded as changing lanes.
It’s called driving through a junction.
It’s called Crossing another road.
It’s not and never has been called Changing Lanes.

Now THAT’S basic stuff.

Hopefully we can agree on the fact that the Rules of the Road, published by the Road Safety Authority, prescribe the law. Here's a link to them

http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Learner-Drivers/Safe-Driving1/Rules-of-the-Road/

See page 133. This page identifies why the blue car broke the Rules of the Road. This page confirms that cars exiting a roundabout have a duty to watch out for, and give plenty of room to, vehicles intending to leave by the next exit, traffic that may be straddling lanes or positioned incorrectly, motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders who may stay in the left-hand lane and signal right if they intend to continue round the roundabout, etc etc.

That's the law.

The blue car will not be in a position to demonstrate compliance with the law, as it traversed the left lane of the roundabout without watching for, and giving plenty of room to, a vehicle that was intending to leave at the next exit, even if it was positioned incorrectly.

The red car will be responsible for it's non-compliance with the law, but that does not absolve the blue car.

In practice, insurance companies will split the liability on behalf of the drivers in cases like this, where both parties broke the law. If one drivers does not agree, and wants to litigate, it can do so but judges don't like their time being wasted and will typically come down heavily on the party they feel responsible for wasting their time.

grogi

Random Bloke wrote: »

Hopefully we can agree on the fact that the Rules of the Road, published by the Road Safety Authority, prescribe the law. Here's a link to them

http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Learner-Drivers/Safe-Driving1/Rules-of-the-Road/

/.../

That's the law.

If you read the thread carefully, you'd see that it is something we will not agree. It is not law. And it is explicitly stated in the RotR.
In Ireland the law consists of Constitution, Acts, statuary documents under the Acts and the precedents. Publications, even by a state agency, are not law.

RotR is a practical tutorial of how to navigate on the road - and it is based on the law.

Lekrub

Instead of a new thread I thought this should go here since it's the same subject..

Right....This is Kinsale Road Roundabout in Cork - I need something confirmed.

Can you good internet people confirm you CANNOT change lane if you are in the blue lane.

BLUE - Straight on only and CANNOT switch lanes
YELLOW - Straight on AND CAN ALSO go under the flyover




Anybody in the blue lane CANNOT switch lanes taking the red line below




This is correct isn't it?

TheChizler

I go through this junction nearly every day and I'm not sure what you're asking here. But in general you can make any lane change you want and take any exit you want on any roundabout as long as you do it safely and you're not crossing a continuous white line or cutting off someone in their lane.

If you're asking should you normally continue round the roundabout from the third lane at the bottom of the picture the answer is no, you can't cut someone off exiting the roundabout in lane 4. But if There no-one there and you do all the necessary checks and signals then there's no issue.

The Rape of Lucretia

Lekrub wrote: »

This is correct isn't it?

Not correct. You can cross such lanes. Ideally, you are in the correct one. But if not cutting across the right of way or causing a danger, you can switch despite the arrows. The one you cannot change lane on are when 'left turn only' or whatever are signed.

Lekrub

Say 2 cars side by side at the traffic lights,
One in blue and one in yellow...the yellow has both options - can go straight or around ...but blue can only can straight.

If blue wants to go around they are in the wrong cos should of got into the correct lane before..

So if they tap yellow, they are at fault.

grogi

Lekrub wrote: »

Say 2 cars side by side at the traffic lights,
One in blue and one in yellow...the yellow has both options - can go straight or around ...but blue can only can straight.

If blue wants to go around they are in the wrong cos should of got into the correct lane before..

So if they tap yellow, they are at fault.

Yes.