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Atheist Godfather For Baptismal Ceremony
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Marriage is a legal & religious ceremony. Under GDPR you can not request that your legal marriage data be deleted but you definitely can get your religious marriage data deleted as it has no legal standing. Same goes with baptism, communion & conformation. Any personal data that the church holds on you, you have a legal right to have it totally deleted and all copies deleted.
Last I read on this is that they are taking the stance that while it's not in any way legally binding it's a historic event they are documenting and as such doesn't need to be deleted. It's taken place, they are just documenting it.
I don't know if that's likely to change anytime soon and from what I understand it's not actually against GDPR rules.0 -
byhookorbycrook wrote:It is now illegal to discriminate against non-Catholics attending a Catholic school.
I get that. Religious people like non religious people break the law every day of the week. I'm saying that to ensure that the law is followed that no religion questions should be on the application form and that the school board should not (by law) be made up of 100 percent religious people. Its not a lot to ask. If 20 percent of the population is non religious then it stands to reason that these 20 percent should be represented on the school board. If it's 30 percent then 30 percent of the school board should be non religious.
I don't think there anything outlandish about this. I don't see why some are up in arms at the suggestion.0 -
Marriage is a legal & religious ceremony. Under GDPR you can not request that your legal marriage data be deleted but you definitely can get your religious marriage data deleted as it has no legal standing. Same goes with baptism, communion & conformation. Any personal data that the church holds on you, you have a legal right to have it totally deleted and all copies deleted. Baptism, communion and conformation have no legal standing. Marriage and death have legal standing. The Church are breaking the law by not complying with gdpr legislation. Give it a year or so and they will have paid out so much in fines for gdpr breach that they will comply.
Their stance on it is absolutely nuts. Baptism, communion and conformation are carried out on an infant, 7 year old and 11 year old. You can't enter into a legal contract until you are 18. Baptised as an infant. You have no input into it so it's not like you changed your mind. It was never your decision in the first place and the church says that you can't get unbaptised? Can't delete any evidence of the baptism? It's nuts
GDPR will sort out this nonsense once & for all
Ive already explored the GDPR avenue with the diocese I was baptised in and this is response I was given:
Further to my email of the 1st of July 2018, I write to you as promised in relation to your recent correspondence requesting to have your details removed from the Baptism Register under Article 17 of the EU General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR).
With regard to Article 2(1) GDPR, the Baptism Registers held in the parishes of the Archdiocese are not processed either wholly or partly by automated means, nor are they part of a filing system or intended to form part of a filing system. The Baptism Registers are not a register of Catholic members, nor are they drawn up in any ordered way (such as alphabetically or by date of birth) and for this reason can prove difficult to consult for any specific person’s baptism. The Archdiocese does not make use of the baptismal registers for calculating the Catholic population of the Archdiocese of Dublin. It relies solely on the data of the Central Statistics Office, obtained through the census, by which citizens themselves choose to record, or not, their religious affiliation. Accordingly, the Baptism Registers are not subject to the GDPR.
Without prejudice to that view, the GDPR would permit your Erasure Request to be denied in any event, as the processing of your personal data continues to be necessary for the purposes for which it was collected. It is essential for the administration of the affairs of the Catholic Church to maintain a register of all people who have been baptised in the Church. It is a factual record of an event that happened. This position was recognised by the Irish Data Protection Commissioner in 2003.
Further, under Article 89(1) GDPR, provision is made for processing for archiving purposes in the public interest, scientific or historical research purposes or statistical purposes, subject to appropriate safeguards. The Baptism Registers record the historical fact of baptisms having taken place. Over time, these registers assume a different importance becoming a unique archival record of enduring value. Therefore, it is the view of the Archdiocese that the registers are not subject to Article 17 of the GDPR for these reasons.
People leave the Church for their own reasons, some wish to have this acknowledged and recorded. To facilitate this the Archdiocese of Dublin now maintains a register for those who wish their de facto defection from the Church to be recorded. If you wish to have your de facto defection recorded in this register, you can put your request in writing and post it to:
The Chancellery
Archbishop’s House
Drumcondra
Dublin 9
If you require any clarification or if you feel I can be of assistance in any way please feel free to contact me.
If you are not satisfied with this response you may lodge your complaint with the Data Protection Commission or seek a judicial remedy.
With every good wish
Yours sincerely
Fintan Gavin
Very Reverend Fintan Gavin
Chancellor
Archdiocese of Dublin
Chancellery
Archbishop's House
Drumcondra
Dublin 9
00 353 1 80875000 -
I get that. Religious people like non religious people break the law every day of the week. I'm saying that to ensure that the law is followed that no religion questions should be on the application form and that the school board should not (by law) be made up of 100 percent religious people. Its not a lot to ask. If 20 percent of the population is non religious then it stands to reason that these 20 percent should be represented on the school board. If it's 30 percent then 30 percent of the school board should be non religious.
I don't think there anything outlandish about this. I don't see why some are up in arms at the suggestion.
How would you define this? What criteria would you set to distinguish 'religious' people from 'non religious' people?
Has been baptized? Made confirmation? Goes to church on Sundays? Goes to church most Sundays? Goes to church Christmas as well as Easter?
Would they be allowed to self report or would there be some form of test?
(by the way just to clarify : I don't necessarily disagree with you, I'm just not sure it's really a workable solution. Personally I think the way to go is to deal with the whole patronage situation, publicly funded schools should be secular, privately funded can do what they want)0 -
wexie wrote:Last I read on this is that they are taking the stance that while it's not in any way legally binding it's a historic event they are documenting and as such doesn't need to be deleted. It's taken place, they are just documenting it.wexie wrote:I don't know if that's likely to change anytime soon and from what I understand it's not actually against GDPR rules.
GDPR is the right to be forgotten. Have a read up on gdpr. There are exceptions for revenue and the government but not for religious organisations.
I have a ceremony with my devil worship group and I introduce my infant child into the ritual. He's now a member of the devil worship group. Do you not think that my child as an adult has the right under gdpr to remove all records of the event taking place? Documenting a historic event does not exclude the right of the individual to erase any evidence of the event taking place. Gdpr gives you the right to be forgotten.
If I spent time in jail & it was in the newspapers I have had the right to have that data removed for the last 5 years or so. In the EU everyone has the right to be forgotten. Trust me. The church will pay a small fortune in fines but it will comply with the legislation.0 -
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Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,498 Mod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 12044
There is an open vote for the parents on the BOM. Up to them who they choose.0 -
If I spent time in jail & it was in the newspapers I have had the right to have that data removed for the last 5 years or so. In the EU everyone has the right to be forgotten. Trust me. The church will pay a small fortune in fines but it will comply with the legislation.
Well from the above post it seems they certainly don't agree with you as yet, nor does the data commissioner. I guess we'll have to wait and see if that changes.
But I'm not holding my breath.0 -
Marriage is a legal & religious ceremony. Under GDPR you can not request that your legal marriage data be deleted but you definitely can get your religious marriage data deleted as it has no legal standing. Same goes with baptism, communion & conformation. Any personal data that the church holds on you, you have a legal right to have it totally deleted and all copies deleted. Baptism, communion and conformation have no legal standing. Marriage and death have legal standing. The Church are breaking the law by not complying with gdpr legislation. Give it a year or so and they will have paid out so much in fines for gdpr breach that they will comply.
Their stance on it is absolutely nuts. Baptism, communion and conformation are carried out on an infant, 7 year old and 11 year old. You can't enter into a legal contract until you are 18. Baptised as an infant. You have no input into it so it's not like you changed your mind. It was never your decision in the first place and the church says that you can't get unbaptised? Can't delete any evidence of the baptism? It's nuts
GDPR will sort out this nonsense once & for all
One minute your saying that the sacraments have no legal standing (they haven’t) and the next minute your alleging that the church entered into a legal contract with the children (they didn’t) .
You need to make up your mind what your point is, you don’t seem to be too sure.
The fact that the child’s parents were 100% responsible for bringing their minor dependent children to the RCC in order to be immersed in the Sacraments seems to be lost on you.
Your argument is with your parents. Take it up with them.0 -
I'm in the same situation as the OP. I said yes to my brother but only relasiing now I have to promise crap at the christening. Feck! My brother isn't religious at all but im like the OP. An atheist who doesn't feel comfortable being a godparent unless I'm just standing there in the church not having to do anything.0
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tylercheribini wrote:With regard to Article 2(1) GDPR, the Baptism Registers held in the parishes of the Archdiocese are not processed either wholly or partly by automated means, nor are they part of a filing system or intended to form part of a filing system. The Baptism Registers are not a register of Catholic members, nor are they drawn up in any ordered way (such as alphabetically or by date of birth) and for this reason can prove difficult to consult for any specific person’s baptism. The Archdiocese does not make use of the baptismal registers for calculating the Catholic population of the Archdiocese of Dublin. It relies solely on the data of the Central Statistics Office, obtained through the census, by which citizens themselves choose to record, or not, their religious affiliation. Accordingly, the Baptism Registers are not subject to the GDPR.
OK. He's wrong. Under gdpr I have a right to a copy of all personal data relating to me. I then have a right to have some or all of it deleted.
There was a very long thread on boards.ie about gdpr and posters being allowed to request the removal of some or all of their old posts that might identify them. Boards.ie took their time responding because they wanted to get the right answers. They had a legal team fully investigate gdpr. Here is what they found out from their solicitors. I have a right to have all or some of my posts deleted. It doesn't matter how difficult it is to identify the relevant posts but they have to do it. It's the law & this is an anonymous forum. No real names used
The church can't use the excuse that its data is not in a n A to Z file & they'd never be able to find it. I strongly suggest reporting the Bishop and the church itself to the data commissioner.
A happy historical event in one person's eyes can be a torturous event in someone else's eyes. They're reply to you is nonsense0 -
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I'm in the same situation as the OP. I said yes to my brother but only relasiing now I have to promise crap at the christening. Feck! My brother isn't religious at all but im like the OP. An atheist who doesn't feel comfortable being a godparent unless I'm just standing there in the church not having to do anything.
So have a chat with the brother, ask him what it means to him and what he expects from you. Whatever you do and don't have to say in church during the ceremony shouldn't be the focus.
What's important is what expectations your brother has from you being a godparent. That's the only thing that should be important.0 -
byhookorbycrook wrote:There is an open vote for the parents on the BOM. Up to them who they choose.
Shouldn't be that way. If we have quotas for female staff then we can quotas for religious & non religious board members.0 -
OK. He's wrong. Under gdpr I have a right to a copy of all personal data relating to me. I then have a right to have some or all of it deleted.
.....blahblahblahnonrelevantstuffblahblahblah
The church can't use the excuse that its data is not in a n A to Z file & they'd never be able to find it. I strongly suggest reporting the Bishop and the church itself to the data commissioner.
Tell ya what, contact the church, tell them you want your records removed and if they don't comply get on to the data commissioner.
We'll be anxiously waiting to hear how you get on.A happy historical event in one person's eyes can be a torturous event in someone else's eyes. They're reply to you is nonsense
They're not documenting anyone's feelings or thoughts at the time. Just that they were present.0 -
splinter65 wrote:One minute your saying that the sacraments have no legal standing (they haven’t) and the next minute your alleging that the church entered into a legal contract with the children (they didn’t) . You need to make up your mind what your point is, you don’t seem to be too sure. The fact that the child’s parents were 100% responsible for bringing their minor dependent children to the RCC in order to be immersed in the Sacraments seems to be lost on you. Your argument is with your parents. Take it up with them.
You should read my post again. I didn't say that the church entered into a legal contract with children. I said that in law children can make decisions let alone infants. Yet the church are refusing to delete records of a ceremony that you never gave permission for at all!0 -
Shouldn't be that way. If we have quotas for female staff then we can quotas for religious & non religious board members.
And again I will ask you :How would you define this? What criteria would you set to distinguish 'religious' people from 'non religious' people?
Has been baptized? Made confirmation? Goes to church on Sundays? Goes to church most Sundays? Goes to church Christmas as well as Easter?
Would they be allowed to self report or would there be some form of test?0 -
Yet the church are refusing to delete records of a ceremony that you never gave permission for at all!
A ceremony that has no legal standing whatsoever.....at all....in any way....
It means nothing more than your graduation from creche or the medal ceremony at pony camp.....which incidentally I believe don't normally require any form of permission either.0 -
wexie wrote:They're not documenting anyone's feelings or thoughts at the time. Just that they were present.
Exactly. Gdpr states that they have no right to identify me as being there if I don't want them to. This is exactly what gdpr is. It's not about feelings it's about the right to be forgotten.0 -
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wexie wrote:A ceremony that has no legal standing whatsoever.....at all....in any way....
It doesn't have to have a legal standing.
I can post "I love peppa pig" and request it to be deleted here on boards.ie because it is my trademark saying in real life & can identify me. No legal standing yet I can request it deleted.
Do you feel the same way if the ceremony was a satanic ritual. Everyone naked or having group sex to initiate a baby into the cult. I know that is extreme example0 -
Do you feel the same way if the ceremony was a satanic ritual. Everyone naked or having group sex to initiate a baby into the cult. I know that is extreme example
Actually yes....
Mostly because I'm all grownup now and I can quite comfortably say the words :
That wasn't my choice, my parents are nuts and whatever they chose for me to be a part of doesn't reflect my life's choices and grownup beliefs....
See? Simples....
Just to give you an example : there are pictures out there with me all dressed up as Madonna, fishnet tights, hair and makeup all done and everything. During a family talent show.
Would I do it today....well no....am I proud of it....not particularly....but I was 12 and it was the 80's......Am I loosing sleep over it? Hell no? Do you think I'm gonna get onto my aunts and uncles threatening GDPR requests and all that bollox? Of course I won't.
A baptismal record has absolutely **** all meaning or relevance unless YOU want it to have one0 -
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lurker2000 wrote: »The clue is in the title 'God' parent. I would suggest you let someone else stand in for that role and you both come up with a non religious role/title of equal commitment to look after your nephews welfare should the need ever arise.
The parents should consult their lawyer about what the role is called when they're drawing up their will. (Appointing someone like this is what all responsible parents do - it's surprising that the name for it isn't more widely known - I don't know it either, but I know l lots of parents who've arranged something like this. )The sooner we remove religion from school the better. School should be fact based. Religious education should be carried out by the church in Sunday school and at home.
So can they leave out any relationship education about feelings? Because of course a feeling is not a fact. Can they leave out the bits of literature, art, music which are about emotional responses to works? Etc?Marriage is a legal & religious ceremony. Under GDPR you can not request that your legal marriage data be deleted but you definitely can get your religious marriage data deleted as it has no legal standing. Same goes with baptism, communion & conformation. Any personal data that the church holds on you, you have a legal right to have it totally deleted and all copies deleted. Baptism, communion and conformation have no legal standing. Marriage and death have legal standing. The Church are breaking the law by not complying with gdpr legislation. Give it a year or so and they will have paid out so much in fines for gdpr breach that they will comply.
Consulting your GP is not a legal event. Neither is getting vaccinated. Or having your hair cut. But you can be your bottom dollar that while your GP and hairdresser will delete some of your personal data, they will not delete records that they saw you on a specific day for a specific purpose. They need those records to protect themselves when you come back in 12 months time with outlandish claims about what happened when you saw then.Exactly. Gdpr states that they have no right to identify me as being there if I don't want them to. This is exactly what gdpr is. It's not about feelings it's about the right to be forgotten.
That would be a kid-fúcker's paradise. Join organisation A. Do what you do, but when suspicions are raised, leave A, and insist that they forget you. Join organisation B. Rinse and repeat.0 -
You should read my post again. I didn't say that the church entered into a legal contract with children. I said that in law children can make decisions let alone infants. Yet the church are refusing to delete records of a ceremony that you never gave permission for at all!
The people with legal responsibilty for you gave permission and not just permission, Your parents actively went out if their way to seek out a priest to give you the sacraments. It wasn’t compulsory.
RCC can’t delete a record of something that actually happened and pretend that it didn’t happen because it did happen.
You need to direct your questions to your parents instead of carefully avoiding the fact that it was they, your caregivers, who had you baptized. Not the church.0 -
Mrs OBumble wrote:So can they leave out any relationship education about feelings? Because of course a feeling is not a fact. Can they leave out the bits of literature, art, music which are about emotional responses to works? Etc?
You are mistaken there. All of the above are facts. Things that you can prove. Religion is thought in school as fact when we don't know it to be fact. It's called having faith. You don't need faith for relationship education, feelings, literature, art, music as these are fact.
Today in primary school they still present story's like Noahs arc as true when historians have proven that the arc story is an amalgamation of songs & poems that originated thousands of years before the ark story in the bible. I've no doubt that there was a flood, tsunami or the likes and the story was repeated in song and over the centuries it changed & whoever actually wrote it down decided to add a moral to the story. Nothing wrong with that except its still told as fact to our children when even Catholic scholars say that the story isn't even meant to be seen as a true story.
A school is a place to learn facts. I'm not suggesting not giving children religious education. True or not there's usually a moral point in the story's. I just don't see why it should be taught in school. We have churches. Almost empty churches. Why not teach religion in church on Sunday. Church is the place to teach faith subjects. Religion in secondary school was always a doss class. No one ever failed religion in school. The time would be better spent on subjects that will help them in the leaving cert.0 -
splinter65 wrote:The people with legal responsibilty for you gave permission, not just that, Your parents actively went out if their way to seek out a priest to give you the sacraments. It wasn’t compulsory. RCC can’t delete a record of something that actually happened and pretend that it didn’t happen because it did happen. You need to direct your questions to your parents instead of carefully avoiding the fact that it was they, your caregivers, who had you baptized. Not the church.
We are talking the 1960s here for me. What school was I supposed to go to without a baptism cert in the early 70s? As it was we had over 50 to a class. You wouldn't have a chance of getting into the local school without a baptism cert. The reason my parents went out of their way to get me baptised was to try get me an education.
You say that it wasn't compulsory but it was really wasn't it? The church ran the school and made the rules. They set up a whole system where you couldn't get a local education unless you were baptised. They sort of forced your parents hands didn't they?0 -
tylercheribini wrote: »Hi
My sister recently asked me to be godfather to her newborn but as a proud atheist is there any point of me doing this? At the ceremony itself will I be expected to do/say anything? Thanks
http://www.thejournal.ie/halligan-confirmation-4024884-May2018/
To be fair if you are a non believer you have no business standing before an altar of God in that capacity at least! Don't be a hypocrite!0 -
I am too but am also the godmother to my nephew. Our view was that while not catholic, I did have an impact in the religious upbringing, not necessarily in catholisim but by having views on multiple religions and teaching him to question faith and not blindly follow one he has essentially been assigned.0
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tylercheribini wrote: »My atheism is something I feel very strongly about and is not something I am willing to compromise whatsover on. If the ceremony requires to me proclaim anything about the Catholic faith then I wont be saying it. My question is does anyone have any recent experience of being a godfather at a ceremony and what it entails?
Don't make a show of yourself0 -
Idonotknow wrote: »I am too but am also the godmother to my nephew. Our view was that while not catholic, I did have an impact in the religious upbringing, not necessarily in catholisim but by having views on multiple religions and teaching him to question faith and not blindly follow one he has essentially been assigned.
But surely the point here is that, unless all involved are just using the ceremony to get the child eligible for a school or similar, then by taking on the role in the ceremony itself debases it. If, in order to fully participate, you are asked if you believe in God and renounce Satan and all that, and if you lie, the the whole thing is made into a farce. The OP's position is honest: he is an atheist and simply refuses to lie by sayingb that he believes in something that he doesnt. I'm not having a pop at you personally; however, I am calling out the contradictions in such a position.0 -
TomOnBoard wrote: »But surely the point here is that, unless all involved are just using the ceremony to get the child eligible for a school or similar, then by taking on the role in the ceremony itself debases it. If, in order to fully participate, you are asked if you believe in God and renounce Satan and all that, and if you lie, the the whole thing is made into a farce. The OP's position is honest: he is an atheist and simply refuses to lie by sayingb that he believes in something that he doesnt. I'm not having a pop at you personally; however, I am calling out the contradictions in such a position.
100% entitled to that opinion. But we were of the opinion that in the view of accepting god and renouncing Satan that yes that’s where I would fall, should I follow the church. However I do not, simply I do not believe that one religion is right and the others are wrong. I would like to believe in a religion but I just don’t. I am fully supportive of everyone’s right to religion and my sister felt this was a good thing, I would support the child no matter what their decision is, and that just because you are baptised a religion doesn’t mean you will always follow. The point was to have someone who would support their religion regardless of their own views. My religion did not impact my support of theirs.
For example when I got married I did not have a religious ceremony, if my husband had wanted one then we would. I don’t think that would make my a hypocrit, but would be me supporting my husbands right to celebrate his religion.0 -
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We are talking the 1960s here for me. What school was I supposed to go to without a baptism cert in the early 70s? As it was we had over 50 to a class. You wouldn't have a chance of getting into the local school without a baptism cert. The reason my parents went out of their way to get me baptised was to try get me an education.
You say that it wasn't compulsory but it was really wasn't it? The church ran the school and made the rules. They set up a whole system where you couldn't get a local education unless you were baptised. They sort of forced your parents hands didn't they?
Nothing is compulsory in life except death and taxes. The country was run at the time a la the RCC. The entire government and the President of Ireland and the vast majority of the population were quite satisfied with that.
Plenty of people left to live in the UK during the 50s and 60s for economic reasons and spent their entire time abroad yearning and keening to come back to horrible Catholic Ireland.
Why was that?0
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