Atheist Godfather For Baptismal Ceremony

ohnonotgmail

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Perhaps all of us are not so ethically driven

I dont get the ethics conundrum. Everybody there is going through the same motions as you. They are doing it because they want a school place for their child. Now that is changing but it hasn't yet. Hopefully parents wont have to go through the same pretense in future.

El_Duderino 09

My Mrs and I are going to be godparents to her cousins child. We’re fairly involved in their lives and it was an honour to be asked.
We’re both atheist so I intend to tell big lies on the day regarding god but I intend to take my role as godparent seriously - take a special interest in the child, offer support and guidance etc.

The actual parents aren’t religious but they’re culturally Church of England in the same way lots of irish people are culturally catholic. It’s not my place to object, I’m just honoured to be asked to be godparent.

El_Duderino 09

realdanbreen wrote: »

tylercheribini wrote: »

Hi

My sister recently asked me to be godfather to her newborn but as a proud atheist is there any point of me doing this? At the ceremony itself will I be expected to do/say anything? Thanks

It's amazing how conflicted some atheists get over issues like this. It's pretty simple really, if you are a 'proud atheist' then you won't go next nor near the church. If OTOH you are like so many who profess to be atheist you will trod along and justify it by (keeping gran happy/what would the neighbours say/lots of people are hypocrites,etc) take your pick.

There’s a middle road. You could have your own opinions and live according to them by having civil marriage ceremony, secular naming ceremony for your child etc. But you can also respect other people’s way of doing things.

If I thought the parents were asking me to be godparent to offer their child Church of England guidance, then I’d have to decline. But if they just want us to be especially involved in their child’s life and offer support, then I’ll go through their religious ceremony to get to the important part down the road no problem.

robindch

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I intend to take my role as godparent seriously - take a special interest in the child, offer support and guidance etc.

You will be required to declare in public to the priest that you will do what you can to ensure that the child become religious. From the church's perspective, godparenthood is only about conformity to the church's messaging and not about the support, guidance and help which is what most people believe it is (and which certainly is a wonderful thing). As above - many people wouldn't sign up to do it since they would not not comfortable making a public declaration to do something which they would have no intention of doing.

Perhaps if one made it clear to everybody beforehand that one's accepting the honor in a secular fashion and would ignore the religious component, then one would then end up only lying to the priest. Or better still, one could speak with the priest beforehand to request a "lite" ceremony which doesn't require any declarations beyond helping out.

That would be an honorable scored-draw, but the priest may not do it, or like it if he did.

El_Duderino 09

robindch wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I intend to take my role as godparent seriously - take a special interest in the child, offer support and guidance etc.

You will be required to declare in public to the priest that you will do what you can to ensure that the child become religious. From the church's perspective, godparenthood is only about conformity to the church's messaging and not about the support, guidance and help which is what most people believe it is (and which certainly is a wonderful thing). As above - many people wouldn't sign up to do it since they would not not comfortable making a public declaration to do something which they would have no intention of doing.

Perhaps if one made it clear to everybody beforehand that one's accepting the honor in a secular fashion and would ignore the religious component, then one would then end up only lying to the priest. Or better still, one could speak with the priest beforehand to request a "lite" ceremony which doesn't require any declarations beyond helping out.

That would be an honorable scored-draw, but the priest may not do it, or like it if he did.

Well the parents went religious and they know we’re atheist and raised catholic. So we have no realistic hope of giving any church of England guidance to the child.

I’m sure they know we’re not religious. We had a secular wedding last year so I imagine we mentioned that we’re not religious. It would be easy enough to say ‘we’re delighted about being godparents but religious support isn’t my strong suit.’

I’ve no intention of speaking to the Vicar or causing any kind of fuss because it’s not my gig. I have no problem going along with the ceremony. It’s just theatre as far as we, and the parents AFAIK, are concerned. I’ve no problem telling a lie there. I don’t see it as a big injury to my honour.

lazygal

The role of godparent is religious, no matter what lies you want to tell yourself. There's far better ways of being involved than starting out telling lies and taking part in a ceremony you don't believe in. The sooner people stop going along with this fiction the better.

El_Duderino 09

lazygal wrote: »

The role of godparent is religious, no matter what lies you want to tell yourself. There's far better ways of being involved than starting out telling lies and taking part in a ceremony you don't believe in. The sooner people stop going along with this fiction the better.

I’m fairly sure the parents aren’t asking us to fulfil a religious role in the child’s life. But they do appreciate the special interest we take and the effort we go to to make sure we’re part of his development.

The ceremony is religious. The role the parents want us to fill, isn’t.

lazygal

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I’m fairly sure the parents aren’t asking us to fulfil a religious role in the child’s life. But they do appreciate the special interest we take and the effort we go to to make sure we’re part of his development.

The ceremony is religious. The role the parents want us to fill, isn’t.

It is religious. The clue is in the title, God parent. Don't be a God parent if you're not a believer in God.

DavyD_83

It will be interesting to see if there is a dramatic drop off in baptisms once the changes to school entry are actually in place and seen to be real.
Or will the people who just want a baptism without any commitment to the church just stay to provide a different excuse to support their latent faith/superstition.

Both my kids were baptised. I would have preferred if they weren't, as I do feel it is a bit of a mockery and that the whole school entry, missing out on communions etc is just a self-fulfilling cycle.

When I managed to argue rationally that school entry wasn't an issue and that was accepted, my wife said that she needed to know that they would be in the same afterlife as her, if there was one. She definitely doesn't have strong faith and has no intention of raising them to attend Mass or anything, but somewhere in her is the fear of taking that risk on their behalf.

On the specific topic, I have zero faith, (but also put no effort into atheism in the way a lot of people do) and would happily stand as godfather (or equivalent in any other religion) as long as the partnership involved knew my position and were comfortable with it.
I don't mind lying to priests; they've been doing it to the rest of us for years.
An aside, I have always wondered if pope, higher ups in all religions look on it all as a giant business and/or scam, or are actually convinced. I think the same about ceo's; do they believe their own pitches?

Sleeper12

DavyD_83 wrote:

It will be interesting to see if there is a dramatic drop off in baptisms once the changes to school entry are actually in place and seen to be real. Or will the people who just want a baptism without any commitment to the church just stay to provide a different excuse to support their latent faith/superstition.

I spend 6 to 10 weekends a y in Irish hotels. Most of these hotels have one we per day over the w inc Sundays. The vast majority of these have the ceremony in the hotel. In other words not a religious ceremony.

I don't know how this compares to church weddings but I'd hazard a guess that church weddings are way, way down. Most of the hotel weddings I see seems to be Dublin couples.

TomOnBoard

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I dont get the ethics conundrum. Everybody there is going through the same motions as you. They are doing it because they want a school place for their child. Now that is changing but it hasn't yet. Hopefully parents wont have to go through the same pretense in future.

How can you judge how or what other people who will be in the Church for the ceremony believe, or what their objective is? If you're correct, then the ceremony is a total farce and the Church is full of hypocrites on the day. However, if you are not correct, and if some participants are playing some sort of game, then they are debasing the whole thing for those ppl who do actually believe in the Church and what the ceremony is about from a religious perspective.

If you're an atheist, then grow a pair, and stay out of a Church unless you are there to admire the art and architecture.

El_Duderino 09

lazygal wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I’m fairly sure the parents aren’t asking us to fulfil a religious role in the child’s life. But they do appreciate the special interest we take and the effort we go to to make sure we’re part of his development.

The ceremony is religious. The role the parents want us to fill, isn’t.

It is religious. The clue is in the title, God parent. Don't be a God parent if you're not a believer in God.

Yes. The ceremony is religious. And the role the parents actually want us to fulfill, isn’t.

Until there’s a commonly used term for ‘secular person who offers additional guidance and takes a special interest in the child’s development’. It will continue to be called ‘godparent’.

There’s absolutely no religious expectation on us as far as the parents are concerned -ceremony aside.

ohnonotgmail

TomOnBoard wrote: »

How can you judge how or what other people who will be in the Church for the ceremony believe, or what their objective is? If you're correct, then the ceremony is a total farce and the Church is full of hypocrites on the day. However, if you are not correct, and if some participants are playing some sort of game, then they are debasing the whole thing for those ppl who do actually believe in the Church and what the ceremony is about from a religious perspective.

If you're an atheist, then grow a pair, and stay out of a Church unless you are there to admire the art and architecture.

A bit preachy for the atheist forum aren't you?

lazygal

Why can't you just be involved without the lying and religious title?

JayRoc

robindch wrote: »

You will be required to declare in public to the priest that you will do what you can to ensure that the child become religious. From the church's perspective, godparenthood is only about conformity to the church's messaging and not about the support, guidance and help which is what most people believe it is (and which certainly is a wonderful thing). As above - many people wouldn't sign up to do it since they would not not comfortable making a public declaration to do something which they would have no intention of doing.

Perhaps if one made it clear to everybody beforehand that one's accepting the honor in a secular fashion and would ignore the religious component, then one would then end up only lying to the priest. Or better still, one could speak with the priest beforehand to request a "lite" ceremony which doesn't require any declarations beyond helping out.

That would be an honorable scored-draw, but the priest may not do it, or like it if he did.

Has anyone ever told the truth about their lack of belief to the priest ahead of a wedding/christening? I'm genuinely interested.

I sometimes wonder if they really understand how unimportant all these ceremonies are to the majority of the people who have them done.

I've been present for loads of these sham ceremonies (weddings where the couple are only there to keep their parents happy, christenings to get the kids into the local school, etc) and the attitude of the priests is often mortifying "isn't it great to see that there are still true believers in these godless days" etc.

I almost felt sorry for them that they could be so deluded.

El_Duderino 09

lazygal wrote: »

Why can't you just be involved without the lying and religious title?

I was invited to take part in the ceremony which the parents chose.

It’s not my gig so I won’t make a fuss.

Until there’s a commonly used name for secular godparents and a commonly used secular ritual, then it will continue to be called ‘godparent’.

I would have a naming ceremony for my own children if I had any. A nice do in the house with family and friends or something similar. And I’d ask people to serve as mentors for my children.

We had a secular wedding last year and it was the first or second secular ceremony most guests had been to. They were very positive about it and lots of people mentioned that it was great to avoid the lies that people tell in religious ceremonies.

I’d be happy to do it that way myself and pave the way for others but I won’t rock the boat when I’ve been invited to take part.

TomOnBoard

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

A bit preachy for the atheist forum aren't you?

My 'preachiness' results from a reaction to a judgemental post about participants in a ceremony that actually means a lot and is fundamental to ppl who practice that particular Faith. The thread was started in the Christianity forum, and was only moved when mods judged the atheist forum to be a better fit.

Cabaal

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yes. The ceremony is religious. And the role the parents actually want us to fulfill, isn’t.

Until there’s a commonly used term for ‘secular person who offers additional guidance and takes a special interest in the child’s development’. It will continue to be called ‘godparent’.

There’s absolutely no religious expectation on us as far as the parents are concerned -ceremony aside.

Guideparents is a common term I've heard,

As for doing the religious stuff, for those that think its no big deal. Would they be so flippant if it was an Islamic or Jewish religious ceremony they had to do instead

ohnonotgmail

TomOnBoard wrote: »

My 'preachiness' results from a reaction to a judgemental post about participants in a ceremony that actually means a lot and is fundamental to ppl who practice that particular Faith. The thread was started in the Christianity forum, and was only moved when mods judged the atheist forum to be a better fit.

I posted my reply in the atheist forum. I had no idea it was moved from christianity so that is irrelevant. You seem to be offended on behalf of others that you dont know which i find strange. I cant see my post making any difference to anybody who actually has faith. If it does then they have other matters regarding their faith and church that should be concerning them.

ohnonotgmail

Cabaal wrote: »

Guideparents is a common term I've heard,

As for doing the religious stuff, for those that think its no big deal. Would they be so flippant if it was an Islamic or Jewish religious ceremony they had to do instead

Are there not people who attend islamic and jewish ceremonies that are also not just going through the motions? I would be very surprised if there were not.

El_Duderino 09

Cabaal wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yes. The ceremony is religious. And the role the parents actually want us to fulfill, isn’t.

Until there’s a commonly used term for ‘secular person who offers additional guidance and takes a special interest in the child’s development’. It will continue to be called ‘godparent’.

There’s absolutely no religious expectation on us as far as the parents are concerned -ceremony aside.

Guideparents is a common term I've heard,

As for doing the religious stuff, for those that think its no big deal. Would they be so flippant if it was an Islamic or Jewish religious ceremony they had to do instead

Guide parents works for me.

And yes. If he just as happy to lie a Muslim ceremony or Jewish, it any other. The same caveat would apply, I’m not in a position to offer religious instruction and if the child asks, I’ll tell them what I think about the gods.

lazygal

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Are there not people who attend islamic and jewish ceremonies that are also not just going through the motions? I would be very surprised if there were not.

Attend yes. Be active participants no. We don't agree to be religious participants in any religious ceremony. There's no good reason for someone to agree to be a godparent when they're actually agreeing to something else.

ohnonotgmail

lazygal wrote: »

Attend yes. Be active participants no. We don't agree to be religious participants in any religious ceremony. There's no good reason for someone to agree to be a godparent when they're actually agreeing to something else.

So nobody has ever attended a jewish or islamic ceremony and just gone through the motions? And who is the WE in bold? who do you think you are speaking for?

lazygal

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

So nobody has ever attended a jewish or islamic ceremony and just gone through the motions? And who is the WE in bold? who do you think you are speaking for?

Me and my husband, who've both told people we won't be godparents because it's a religious role. Wouldn't do whatever other equivalents are either. A religious role is a religious role.

ohnonotgmail

lazygal wrote: »

Me and my husband, who've both told people we won't be godparents because it's a religious role. Wouldn't do whatever other equivalents are either. A religious role is a religious role.

What you choose to do is your business. It is irrelevant to any decision i make.

realdanbreen

lazygal wrote: »

Me and my husband, who've both told people we won't be godparents because it's a religious role. Wouldn't do whatever other equivalents are either. A religious role is a religious role.

Did you and your husband get married in a church?

lazygal

realdanbreen wrote: »

Did you and your husband get married in a church?

No, of course not. Nor did we baptise our children.

Cabaal

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Guide parents works for me.

And yes. If he just as happy to lie a Muslim ceremony or Jewish, it any other. The same caveat would apply, I’m not in a position to offer religious instruction and if the child asks, I’ll tell them what I think about the gods.

But it hardly sets the best example that you lie about believing in god, believing in the devil (gota believe to reject him don't you know) and agree in church that you'll help raise the child in catholic faith when no intention of doing so.

Not the best moral example to start things off with

here's an example of the wording thats said - https://www.donnybrookparish.ie/images/sacraments/Baptism_Information_Booklet.pdf

Everything I've quoted below is what godparents must respond in the positive response to (ie: you do)

Godparents, are you willing to help these parents
in their duty as Christian mothers and fathers?

Do all of you here, family and friends, promise to
offer these parents and their child (children) the
support of a community which is inspired by the
love of Jesus?

N. This Christian community welcomes you with
great joy. In its name, I claim you for Christ our
Saviour by the Sign of his Cross I now trace on
your forehead, and I invite your parents and
godparents to do the same.

Dear parents, godparents and friends,
You have asked to have your child (children)
baptised. By water and the Holy Spirit your child
(children) will receive the gift of new life from
God who is love.
On your part, you must make it your constant care
to bring him / her up in the practice of the faith.
See that the life which God gives him / her is kept
safe from the poison of sin, and allowed the
opportunity to grow stronger in his / her heart.
If your faith makes you ready to accept this
responsibility, renew now the vows of your own
baptism. Reject sin; profess your faith in Christ
Jesus. This is the faith of the Church; the faith
in which this child is about to be baptised.

Do you reject Satan?

Do you believe in God the Father almighty, creator
of heaven and earth?

Do you believe in Jesus Christ his only Son our
Lord, who was born of the virgin Mary, was
crucified, died and was buried, rose from the dead,
and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?

Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy
catholic Church, the Communion of saints, the
forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body
and life everlasting?

This is our faith. This is the faith of the
Church. We are proud to profess it in the name of
Jesus Christ, our Lord. May the Holy Spirit be
with us to guide and strengthen us as we take on
the responsibility of Christian parents, godparents
and community.

Thats A LOT of lies to be telling,

ohnonotgmail

Cabaal wrote: »

But it hardly sets the best example that you lie about believing in god, believing in the devil (gota believe to reject him don't you know) and agree in church that you'll help raise the child in catholic faith when no intention of doing so.

Not the best moral example to start things off with

You do? Why?

Cabaal

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You do? Why?

I see you've ignored the rest of my post. Nice dodge
:rolleyes:

For you to reject the evil and all his actions you must first believe it is real and his actions are real.

Regardless, even if you don't believe the devil is real for you to answer in the positive to any of what I quote when you either don't believe or have no intention of doing so means you've lied.

Great moral example overall really
:rolleyes:

ohnonotgmail

Cabaal wrote: »

I see you've ignored the rest of my post. Nice dodge
:rolleyes:

For you to reject the evil and all his actions you must first believe it is real and his actions are real.

And i see you have ignored the question i asked and simply restated what you said.

Cabaal wrote: »

Regardless, even if you don't believe the devil is real for you to answer in the positive to any of what I quote when you either don't believe or have no intention of doing so means you've lied.

Great moral example overall really
:rolleyes:

well it is quite simple. If it doesnt exist then there is nothing to reject. If it does exist then why would i not reject something that represents evil. It is not that hard to understand.

Cabaal

So you are fine telling lies in front of all family members and setting that fine moral example?
simple yes or no will do if you don't want to type much

ohnonotgmail

Cabaal wrote: »

So you are fine telling lies in front of all family members and setting that fine moral example?
simple yes or no will do if you don't want to type much

I have no problem typing. thank you for your concern. I was asked 2 questions:


1. Do you reject satan


As already explained i have no problem answering yes to this. there is no need for me to lie.


2. Will you continue to raise the child in the same manner as the parents if anything should happen to the parents.



Again i have no problem saying yes to this. Even if the parents were devout catholics i would have no problem continuing to raise the child in the same manner. I would be carrying out their wishes. I dont need to believe in god to do that.



And if all else fails i just claim mental reservation. the catholics would get a kick out of that.

robindch

JayRoc wrote: »

Has anyone ever told the truth about their lack of belief to the priest ahead of a wedding/christening? I'm genuinely interested.

I can't imagine most priests would go in for that kind of masochism!

Which reminds me of a wedding I was at in Rathmines a few years back where the missus was from Russia and the hubbie from France. Not only did neither of the two appear to believe a word of what the priest was babbling on about, but most of the congregation didn't either. Nor did most of the congregation even understand what was was being said or what was happening, since most of them didn't speak English, let alone the grand, looping oratory of Ecclesiastical English - putting me into the uncomfortable position of having to translate from English to French or Russian that the congregation might understand the priest, and occasionally, back and forth from French to Russian, that the bride's side might understand the husband's, and vice versa.

It was an odd afternoon.

Hotblack Desiato

Hmmm are you sure this wasn't one of those sham marriages

El_Duderino 09

Cabaal wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Guide parents works for me.

And yes. If he just as happy to lie a Muslim ceremony or Jewish, it any other. The same caveat would apply, I’m not in a position to offer religious instruction and if the child asks, I’ll tell them what I think about the gods.

But it hardly sets the best example that you lie about believing in god, believing in the devil (gota believe to reject him don't you know) and agree in church that you'll help raise the child in catholic faith when no intention of doing so.

Not the best moral example to start things off with

here's an example of the wording thats said - https://www.donnybrookparish.ie/images/sacraments/Baptism_Information_Booklet.pdf

Everything I've quoted below is what godparents must respond in the positive response to (ie: you do)

Thats A LOT of lies to be telling,

Yeah I’d tell that lie with my hand tied behind my back. Lying to a religion is nothing to me. It would be like telling a lie at the circus.

The ceremony is irrelevant to the actual role of being the godparent/guide parents to the child. It’s religion, it’s just a big joke as far as I’m concerned.

lazygal

Then you don't need to bother doing the ceremony. Have the role, don't do the lies in a church.

El_Duderino 09

lazygal wrote: »

Then you don't need to bother doing the ceremony. Have the role, don't do the lies in a church.

I will though. Because when I was asked to be his godfather, I said ‘yes I’d honoured’.

I didn’t say ‘well actually I’m an atheist, so I disagree with... and it will continue to be the norm until... so I’d be happy to fulfil the secular role but I won’t tell a lie by taking part in the religious service’. Presumably then I’d take a big sniff of my own fart to reward myself for my public display of atheistic piety.

https://youtu.be/OM9jhGiIAFM

robindch

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Hmmm are you sure this wasn't one of those sham marriages

If I hadn't known the two rather wonderful people involved for several years before they'd chanced inviting me and my opinions into a church, I'd have called a halt had anybody upped and read the banns

I'd be honoured to be a 'godparent' if they meant it in a secular sense, but i couldn't bring myself to go into a church and start telling lies about it.

eagle eye

bluewolf wrote:

I'd be honoured to be a 'godparent' if they meant it in a secular sense, but i couldn't bring myself to go into a church and start telling lies about it.

Do you have friends who practice a religion?
If you do and one asked you to be a godparent but wished that their kid was brought up being taught religion would you do it for them if the worst happened?
I know I would, I've no issue with anybody practising religion and have many friends that do and I respect their right to.

recedite

bluewolf wrote: »

I'd be honoured to be a 'godparent' if they meant it in a secular sense, but i couldn't bring myself to go into a church and start telling lies about it.

What secular sense would that be?

recedite

recedite wrote: »

What secular sense would that be?

The guideparent stuff discussed on the previous page

eagle eye wrote: »

Do you have friends who practice a religion?
If you do and one asked you to be a godparent but wished that their kid was brought up being taught religion would you do it for them if the worst happened?
I know I would, I've no issue with anybody practising religion and have many friends that do and I respect their right to.

I haven't a clue about her religion beyond the basics so i wouldn't be asked to do it

recedite

bluewolf wrote: »

The guideparent stuff discussed on the previous page

Well, it was all a bit wishy washy. Somebody said something about "legal guardianship" in the event of the parents dying, which I'm pretty sure is an entirely separate matter.
So I'm genuinely interested to know. You are very specifically promising to help indoctrinate a child into a specific religion. Apart from that, what else would you be doing that you would not be able to do anyway as an aunt/uncle/family friend?

smacl

bluewolf wrote: »

I'd be honoured to be a 'godparent' if they meant it in a secular sense, but i couldn't bring myself to go into a church and start telling lies about it.

Doesn't really need a ceremony though. If you're the friend of the family that is there for the child, you are de facto that person. Loads of babysitting leading to being someone the child can talk to easily. Lots of people who are godparents aren't this and vice-versa.