Atheist Godfather For Baptismal Ceremony

TomOnBoard

Turtwig wrote: »

MOD NOTE: Moved this thread to Atheism & Agnosticism as it seems the line of discussion the thread has taken is more appropriate here.

As an observation, this post and its underlying move is probably a highly accurate representation of a reality that what has previously held as Christianity has (been)migrated to Atheism & Agnosticism.

As a not particularly devout Catholic who is still holding out hope, but who fervently believes in the goodness attributed to Jesus Christ, I find this troubling for a very simple reason:

If you believe in nothing, what will guide you when your base/primeval human instincts take you over?

eagle eye

TomOnBoard wrote:

If you believe in nothing, what will guide you when your base/primeval human instincts take you over?

I believe in being a good human being. I like to help people and take pleasure from doing good things.

The psychopath/sociopath will do bad things but isn't necessarily a full blown atheist. I suppose some people are prevented from doing bad things by being religious and fearing what will happen to them in the next life if they do something wrong in this one.

lawred2

Stanford wrote: »

Can a non Catholic be a Godparent? No, a person who is not Catholic cannot be a godparent for a Catholic child, because they cannot perform the duties of godparent; for if they do not know and profess the Catholic faith themselves, they cannot teach it to their godchild (Irish Catholic website)

Yeah that's not true

Hotblack Desiato

TomOnBoard wrote: »

As an observation, this post and its underlying move is probably a highly accurate representation of a reality that what has previously held as Christianity has (been)migrated to Atheism & Agnosticism.

*cue Hammond organ minor chord* spooky...

As a not particularly devout Catholic who is still holding out hope, but who fervently believes in the goodness attributed to Jesus Christ

That's grand but there's no more evidence to pin your hopes on Jesus Christ than there is on Harry Potter.

Actually there's probably more evidence for Harry Potter.. his origin myths are more recent after all, and haven't yet lost anything in translation, at least for English speakers.

I find this troubling for a very simple reason:

If you believe in nothing, what will guide you when your base/primeval human instincts take you over?

LOL! Oh no! Not the nihilist fallacy again! *even louder minor Hammond organ chord*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a91sDNJq7Nc

Our base, primeval, pre-human, reptile brains take us over all the time. The trick to being a human is to recognise that and deal with it.

lawred2

TomOnBoard wrote: »

As an observation, this post and its underlying move is probably a highly accurate representation of a reality that what has previously held as Christianity has (been)migrated to Atheism & Agnosticism.

As a not particularly devout Catholic who is still holding out hope, but who fervently believes in the goodness attributed to Jesus Christ, I find this troubling for a very simple reason:

If you believe in nothing, what will guide you when your base/primeval human instincts take you over?

What guidance were those child abusing clerics following?

Magnatu

Unashamed atheist and godfather four times. Would have had an issue renouncing Satan or saying anything but that no longer necessary.
Parents were all aware of my lack of any faith.

Sleeper12

Magnatu wrote: »

Unashamed atheist and godfather four times. Would have had an issue renouncing Satan or saying anything but that no longer necessary.
Parents were all aware of my lack of any faith.

They took all that out?


What exactly do you have to say now?


It's been a few years for me but I did have to say I do when asked if I renounce Satan. They were several "I will" thrown in there to

eviltwin

I'm a atheist godparent. I wouldn't do it now but at the time I was okay with it and honoured to be asked

The parents knew I wasn't religious as did the priest who himself told me it was fine. The child in question has two godmothers and no godfather which is also against the rules but the priest obliged.

Do what you feel is right. It's a few meaningless words to a non believer. I don't agree with baptism for the sake of a day out but that's not your decision to make.

robindch

tylercheribini wrote: »

Faith and atheism are two sides of the same coin,whatever makes you happy.

Faith and atheism are two sides of the same issue in the same sense that playing soccer and never playing soccer are two sides of the same coin.

You may want to reconsider your similes.

tylercheribini

robindch wrote: »

Faith and atheism are two sides of the same issue in the same sense that playing soccer and never playing soccer are two sides of the same coin.

You may want to reconsider your similes.

In an Irish context(from which Ive been clearly speaking from in this thread), faith and atheism are very much entwined. You may want reconsider your sense of Irish history.

pauldla

tylercheribini wrote: »

In an Irish context(from which Ive been clearly speaking from in this thread), faith and atheism are very much entwined. You may want reconsider your sense of Irish history.

In an Irish context, faith and atheism are entwined? That's an interesting statement, but I don't quite understand it. Could you expand on this point, please?

DivingDuck

TomOnBoard wrote: »

If you believe in nothing, what will guide you when your base/primeval human instincts take you over?

This is a very bizarre statement. If your instincts have "taken you over", no amount of religion or faith are going to stop you from following them. Faith is a product of the thinking, sentient mind and operates at the same level as morals and social mores, so if those have gone out the window, so will your faith.

... But if you just mean "how do you face temptation" (i.e., how do you not cheat on your spouse/pocket the fifty you find by the side of the road/generally be an asshole), then you just don't do the things you think are immoral. You don't do them because you don't want to make the world a crappier place for those who have to live in it.

I suppose it's still a kind of faith: the faith that you have the power to make the world at least a little bit better or worse by your actions— that, and wanting to be the kind of person you could respect if you met them for the first time.

lazygal

Myself and my husband are atheist and don't act as godparents. It's a horrible ceremony and the words and intent behind the sacrament are something we don't support. I'd feel like a massive hypocrite doing it no matter what.

tylercheribini

pauldla wrote: »

In an Irish context, faith and atheism are entwined? That's an interesting statement, but I don't quite understand it. Could you expand on this point, please?

The fact that almost the entire population had a particular faith imposed on them from birth,
had no choice but to enrol in a denominational school based on that faith(finally changing) and being forced or societally coerced into all its subsequent rituals right up to death.(also finally changing). Thus by default, still the majority of aethists were 'of faith' at one stage in this country. At least a new generation who have not suffereed such impositions is already emerging and who have not had to taste one side to know they prefer the other.

ohnonotgmail

Magnatu wrote: »

Unashamed atheist and godfather four times. Would have had an issue renouncing Satan or saying anything but that no longer necessary.
Parents were all aware of my lack of any faith.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

They took all that out?


What exactly do you have to say now?


It's been a few years for me but I did have to say I do when asked if I renounce Satan. They were several "I will" thrown in there to

That bit is still in there. I was a godparent again a few weeks ago.

pauldla

tylercheribini wrote: »

The fact that almost the entire population had a particular faith imposed on them from birth,
had no choice but to enrol in a denominational school based on that faith(finally changing) and being forced or societally coerced into all its subsequent rituals right up to death.(also finally changing). Thus by default, still the majority of aethists were 'of faith' at one stage in this country. At least a new generation who have not suffereed such impositions is already emerging and who have not had to taste one side to know they prefer the other.

Still not seeing how they are 'intertwined', not 'sides of the same coin', and I don't see any particular Irish context, but I see no need to pursue the point further. Thanks for your reply, though.

Peregrinus

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

That bit is still in there. I was a godparent again a few weeks ago.

There are a couple of different versions of the rite of baptism. Some mention "Satan" and others do not.

Sleeper12

Peregrinus wrote: »

There are a couple of different versions of the rite of baptism. Some mention "Satan" and others do not.

I've only been to Catholic baptism & they always use the exact same one & the godparents always have to reject Satan & all his works & you have to verbally agree that you believe in god above & agree to bring up the child a christian.

EDIT: I have 70ish nephews & nieces so I've been to more christenings than I' d like over the last 30 years. I'm not saying you are wrong but I have never been to a Catholic one where Satan isn't mentioned

Under His Eye

Peregrinus wrote: »

There are a couple of different versions of the rite of baptism. Some mention "Satan" and others do not.

It depends on the priest.

Sleeper12

This one below seems word for word what \I have heard every time. I wonder is it a Dublin/country thing where the priest leaves some out?

Just a few words like:
V. Do you reject Satan?
R. I do.
V. And all his works?
R. I do.
V. And all his empty promises?
R. I do.
V. Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth?
R. I do.
V. Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?
R. I do.
V. Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?
R. I do.
V. God, the all-powerful Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has given us a new birth by water and the Holy Spirit, and forgiven all our sins. May he also keep us faithful to our Lord Jesus Christ for ever and ever.
R. Amen.
(This is a family service that is directed by one of the parents. The family members renew their baptismal vows and sprinkle themselves with the Easter water,)

Peregrinus

There's a permitted variant which starts "Do you reject Sin?", or something like that, and then asks a different set of questions to broadly the same effect, before getting into the affirmation of faith. You can use either.

(Although, note, this is a choice normally made by the priest in consultation with the parents of the child being baptised. The godparents typically don't be involved in that level of planning.)

ohnonotgmail

Peregrinus wrote: »

There are a couple of different versions of the rite of baptism. Some mention "Satan" and others do not.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I've only been to Catholic baptism & they always use the exact same one & the godparents always have to reject Satan & all his works & you have to verbally agree that you believe in god above & agree to bring up the child a christian.

EDIT: I have 70ish nephews & nieces so I've been to more christenings than I' d like over the last 30 years. I'm not saying you are wrong but I have never been to a Catholic one where Satan isn't mentioned

I've only ever heard the version with Satan and like sleeper12 I have been to a LOT of christenings.

Peregrinus

Perhaps the Satan version is popular in the Irish market, so!

Sleeper12

Peregrinus wrote: »

There's a permitted variant which starts "Do you reject Sin?", or something like that, and then asks a different set of questions to broadly the same effect, before getting into the affirmation of faith. You can use either.

(Although, note, this is a choice normally made by the priest in consultation with the parents of the child being baptised. The godparents typically don't be involved in that level of planning.)

In Dublin it's not like a wedding. There is very little contact with the priest beforehand if any at all. They rattle these thing out in a production line type ceremony now. It's not unusual to have 5 or 6 babies baptized all at the same time instead of separately



I'm not saying you are wrong because I genuinely don't know. All I can say is it's been Satan at every christening I've been to

ohnonotgmail

Peregrinus wrote: »

There's a permitted variant which starts "Do you reject Sin?", or something like that, and then asks a different set of questions to broadly the same effect, before getting into the affirmation of faith. You can use either.

(Although, note, this is a choice normally made by the priest in consultation with the parents of the child being baptised. The godparents typically don't be involved in that level of planning.)

Sleeper12 wrote: »

In Dublin it's not like a wedding. There is very little contact with the priest beforehand if any at all. They rattle these thing out in a production line type ceremony now. It's not unusual to have 5 or 6 babies baptized all at the same time instead of separately



I'm not saying you are wrong because I genuinely don't know. All I can say is it's been Satan at every christening I've been to

I dont remember being to a christening where only 1 child was being christened. there is normally a couple of babies at least. The last one was a few weeks ago and there were 6 babies. i dont think the parents got any say at all in the ceremony.

Peregrinus

And I'm not saying you're wrong because, obviously, you were at the Christenings and I wasn't. It may be that the "Satan" version is overwhelmingly popular, or is the norm in Dublin or in Ireland. But other options do exist.

But none of this is particularly relevant to a godparent. Even if other options do exist, they tend to have no say in whether they are used. And, by all accounts, they are not much used, if at all.

Sleeper12

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I dont remember being to a christening where only 1 child was being christened. there is normally a couple of babies at least. The last one was a few weeks ago and there were 6 babies. i dont think the parents got any say at all in the ceremony.

Back in the day You had the church to yourself & you could pick the day yourself. They had so many priests back then. Now it's first Sunady of the monthe like it or lump it

spacecoyote

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Getting back to the OP's original concerns, there's an awful lot of dishonesty and hypocrisy by some posters on here who play at Catholic ceremonies and mouth the words that they admittedly don't believe. Fair play to the OP who had a conscientious issue and has the courage of his convictions.

In my view, anyone who dis-respects the Catholic ceremony so much as to blatantly lie about the fact that they don't believe in God, Satan and all the trappings that are inherent in a Catholic Baptism ceremony have little/no moral backbone.

I'm Godparent for a couple of nieces & nephews. When we had to stand for the "Do you reject Satan...etc" piece, I just stood silently & passively, I didn't mouth any words. Got a few joking comments from family afterwards, but no-one was ever put out by it.

TomOnBoard wrote: »

God help us if such a person were to be relied on in court to tell the truth, the whole truth etc., as their word means nothing.

TomOnBoard wrote: »

If you believe in nothing, what will guide you when your base/primeval human instincts take you over?

These types of statements really depress me when I read them from religious people.

I don't commit crime/lie/hurt other people out of a fear of some recrimination in some afterlife. I don't do those things because of my own moral beliefs about doing right/wrong.

To me, your approach is infinitely more selfish. You do it because you want to get to heaven/avoid hell. I do it because I believe I'm doing the right thing without any thoughts to some future consequence/gain to myself.

If conclusive proof was given to you tomorrow that there is no God/afterlife/nothing beyond your current existence, would you become a murderous raping lunatic?

ohnonotgmail

spacecoyote wrote: »

I'm Godparent for a couple of nieces & nephews. When we had to stand for the "Do you reject Satan...etc" piece, I just stood silently & passively, I didn't mouth any words. Got a few joking comments from family afterwards, but no-one was ever put out by it.

I dont get the issue with the "do you reject satan" bit. As it doesnt exist you are not rejecting anything.

I became a godfather this year despite me not baptising my own (went humanist on the 1st will just be going for a meal with family on the second) and had the joking comments about not catching fire etc.

No mention of Satan at it , there was a handy laminated A4 with the one or two word responses expected throughout.

I did voice concern at being asked as I too would find it a little disrespectful of their religion but the family who'd asked me said it meant more to them than simply the religious aspect so I was happy enough to take part and be involved in the little ones day.