Atheist Godfather For Baptismal Ceremony

Kidchameleon

OP you will have to take vows to teach the child the ways of Jesus and the church during the ceremony. You could tell your sister that you do not want to do it on principle but I think the better thing to do would be to just go along with the motions. If it is all bs as you believe, participating in a meaningless ceremony should be no skin off your neck. As an aside, how does one become a "proud" atheist? I cannot fathom how a person can be proud of not believing in something. Are you proud of not believing in unicorns?

pauldla

Kidchameleon wrote: »

OP you will have to take vows to teach the child the ways of Jesus and the church during the ceremony. You could tell your sister that you do not want to do it on principle but I think the better thing to do would be to just go along with the motions. If it is all bs as you believe, participating in a meaningless ceremony should be no skin off your neck. As an aside, how does one become a "proud" atheist? I cannot fathom how a person can be proud of not believing in something. Are you proud of not believing in unicorns?

I'm a proud avampirist. 27 days without believing in vampires.

Sleeper12

Kidchameleon wrote: »

OP you will have to take vows to teach the child the ways of Jesus and the church during the ceremony. You could tell your sister that you do not want to do it on principle but I think the better thing to do would be to just go along with the motions. If it is all bs as you believe, participating in a meaningless ceremony should be no skin off your neck. As an aside, how does one become a "proud" atheist? I cannot fathom how a person can be proud of not believing in something. Are you proud of not believing in unicorns?

I'm Proud that I don't believe that the earth is flat.

Peregrinus

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I'm Proud that I don't believe that the earth is flat.

Why? Was this something that it took you a great effort or a great sacrifice to achieve?

Sleeper12

Peregrinus wrote: »

Why? Was this something that it took you a great effort or a great sacrifice to achieve?

I'm proud that I don't believe in something so stupid. I'm proud to take my stance that the earth is round.

Some posters are proud to defend the catholic church while others are proud to argue that there is no god at all (In thieir belief).



Usually when I take a stance on an issue Im proud to defend my belief



Is there really a difference in someone being proud to believe in god & someone proud that they don't believe in god? Why would you suggest that it's ok for one side to be proud & the other side not to be proud.



That logic makes no sense at all imo

realdanbreen

tylercheribini wrote: »

Hi

My sister recently asked me to be godfather to her newborn but as a proud atheist is there any point of me doing this? At the ceremony itself will I be expected to do/say anything? Thanks

What exactly is your main concern? The fact that you are a 'proud atheist' and could not in conscience go or , God forbid , that you might have 'to do/say anything' :eek:

Peregrinus

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I'm proud that I don't believe in something so stupid.

You're setting the bar for pride fairly low, so. I don't believe that the moon is made of green cheese, but "I'm not as stupid as a small minority of very stupid people" is a characteristic shared by most of humanity, so why should I be particularly proud of it?

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Is there really a difference in someone being proud to believe in god & someone proud that they don't believe in god? Why would you suggest that it's ok for one side to be proud & the other side not to be proud.

I haven't suggested that at all.

I don't think holding a belief or not holding a belief is, in and of itself, a matter of pride. If it were, then everybody is equally entitled to feel proud, even if they hold directly contradictory beliefs. Or, indeed, even if the same person regularly changes his beliefs, he could still feel justifiable pride since, at any time, he has beliefs. That kind of devalues pride.

"I am true to my beliefs" or "I hold my beliefs at some cost to myself" or "I make sacrifices required by my beliefs" - these might, arguably, be matters of pride. But the simple statement that I have a belief, no.

Sleeper12

Do you think that people who believe in God are stupid for being proud that they believe in God?

Most people that don't believe in God put a lot of research into their decision. Many have actually looked closer into the subject than most Catholic. Many went to the trouble of reading the bible from cover to cover. It's not a whim.

Why wouldn't they be as proud in their belief as a Christian?

Why can one side be proud & the other side not to be proud.

You are not making sense imo

Edit you can be proud in an exam because you studied & got the answers correct.

Likewise religious and non religious people can be just as proud as they study and both feel that they got the answers correct.

tylercheribini

tylercheribini wrote: »

I am willing to attend, just as I have attended church funerals and weddings as a non believer. Atheists can respect the beliefs of others and I dont burst into flames or anything upon entering "consecrated ground" but muttering empty promises would be a step to far for me.

The Godfather bit is ceremonial and don't do it if you don't want to.
However, a lot of people use it to determine guardians should anything happen to them.

If you're haply with that, tell your sister that you will be a legal guardian should the need ever arise but that you would rather not be a godfather.

Peregrinus

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Do you think that people who believe in God are stupid for being proud that they believe in God?

I'm not saying anyone is stupid for feeling proud. I'm just saying they shouldn't feel proud.

And, yes, people who believe in God should not feel proud of believing in God. They may feel pride of their commitment to that belief, if they are persecuted for it, or of any sacrifices or good works to which that belief motivates them, but that's not the same thing.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Most people that don't believe in God put a lot of research into their decision. Many have actually looked closer into the subject than most Catholic. Many went to the trouble of reading the bible from cover to cover. It's not a whim.

"Most people"? Lots of people who don't believe in God were raised not believing in God. (Atheist parents are in fact the most effective at "brainwashing" their children into sharing the parents position.) Others become unbelievers simply because they lose interest in religion, or consider it irrelevant. Even those who took and interest and did their reading etc etc have no particular reason for pride, in my view; they did those things because the question interested them. Why should that be a source of pride.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Why wouldn't they be as proud in their belief as a Christian?

They should be exactly as proud as a Christian should be. Which is, not proud at all.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Why can one side be proud & the other side not to be proud.

You are not making sense imo

I am making sense; you're just no reading what I am saying. You keep accusing me of thinking that Christians should be proud and atheists not, when I have never said that; in fact I have expressly disclaimed that view.

Sleeper12

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm not saying anyone is stupid for feeling proud. I'm just saying they shouldn't feel proud.

And, yes, people who believe in God should not feel proud of believing in God. They may feel pride of their commitment to that belief, if they are persecuted for it, or of any sacrifices or good works to which that belief motivates them, but that's not the same thing.


"Most people"? Lots of people who don't believe in God were raised not believing in God. (Atheist parents are in fact the most effective at "brainwashing" their children into sharing the parents position.) Others become unbelievers simply because they lose interest in religion, or consider it irrelevant. Even those who took and interest and did their reading etc etc have no particular reason for pride, in my view; they did those things because the question interested them. Why should that be a source of pride.


They should be exactly as proud as a Christian should be. Which is, not proud at all.


I am making sense; you're just no reading what I am saying. You keep accusing me of thinking that Christians should be proud and atheists not, when I have never said that; in fact I have expressly disclaimed that view.

I am reading what you are saying.




Someone passes an exam. Do they have the right to be proud?

robindch

Kidchameleon wrote: »

[...] I think the better thing to do would be to just go along with the motions. If it is all bs as you believe, participating in a meaningless ceremony should be no skin off your neck.

There would be the issue of what would happen if the OP had, for example, a reputation for honesty which he would shred by promising to do a string of religious things which everybody present knew he had no intention of carrying out.

The religious seem, as you seem yourself, to have few scruples in this area. The majority of atheists I know, on the other hand, would be reluctant or unwilling to lie through their teeth in front of friends and family.

Peregrinus

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I am reading what you are saying.

Then you have no excuse for ascribing views to me which I have not expressed.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Someone passes an exam. Do they have the right to be proud?

if it took them considerable effort and was a challenge that they had to work to meet, yes, they have right to be proud.

On the other hand, if it was an eye exam to see whether they needed glasses, then, no.

Either way, I'm not sure that having a belief is analogous to passing an exam.

Kidchameleon

robindch wrote: »

There would be the issue of what would happen if the OP had, for example, a reputation for honesty which he would shred by promising to do a string of religious things which everybody present knew he had no intention of carrying out.

The religious seem, as you seem yourself, to have few scruples in this area. The majority of atheists I know, on the other hand, would be reluctant or unwilling to lie through their teeth in front of friends and family.

The OP has already stated that his sister is aware he is an atheist "with strong beliefs". She knows the situation. I don't see a problem with going through the motions, we do it all the time in every day life.

Shanotheslayer

I became a Godfather recently. They don't ask you to say or do anything. You just sit there. You then stand beside the baby when the priest does the baptism that's it.

Sleeper12

Peregrinus wrote:

Then you have no excuse for ascribing views to me which I have not expressed.

You see to want to dictate who should be proud of what.

I am proud of most of the desisions I make on a daily basis, most of the things I do throughout the day and pretty much of the life I lead.

Religion or non religion is a massive part of someone's life. It reflects in how they live their lives.

realdanbreen

tylercheribini wrote: »

Hi

My sister recently asked me to be godfather to her newborn but as a proud atheist is there any point of me doing this? At the ceremony itself will I be expected to do/say anything? Thanks

It's amazing how conflicted some atheists get over issues like this. It's pretty simple really, if you are a 'proud atheist' then you won't go next nor near the church. If OTOH you are like so many who profess to be atheist you will trod along and justify it by (keeping gran happy/what would the neighbours say/lots of people are hypocrites,etc) take your pick.

robindch

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I don't see a problem with going through the motions, we do it all the time in every day life.

As above, if one doesn't care about one's honesty or public reputation, then yes indeed, going ahead with it is perfectly reasonable.

ohnonotgmail

robindch wrote: »

As above, if one doesn't care about one's honesty or public reputation, then yes indeed, going ahead with it is perfectly reasonable.

perhaps all of us are not so ideologically driven.

Hotblack Desiato

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

perhaps all of us are not so ideologically driven.

Perhaps all of us are not so ethically driven

ohnonotgmail

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Perhaps all of us are not so ethically driven

I dont get the ethics conundrum. Everybody there is going through the same motions as you. They are doing it because they want a school place for their child. Now that is changing but it hasn't yet. Hopefully parents wont have to go through the same pretense in future.

El_Duderino 09

My Mrs and I are going to be godparents to her cousins child. We’re fairly involved in their lives and it was an honour to be asked.
We’re both atheist so I intend to tell big lies on the day regarding god but I intend to take my role as godparent seriously - take a special interest in the child, offer support and guidance etc.

The actual parents aren’t religious but they’re culturally Church of England in the same way lots of irish people are culturally catholic. It’s not my place to object, I’m just honoured to be asked to be godparent.

El_Duderino 09

realdanbreen wrote: »

tylercheribini wrote: »

Hi

My sister recently asked me to be godfather to her newborn but as a proud atheist is there any point of me doing this? At the ceremony itself will I be expected to do/say anything? Thanks

It's amazing how conflicted some atheists get over issues like this. It's pretty simple really, if you are a 'proud atheist' then you won't go next nor near the church. If OTOH you are like so many who profess to be atheist you will trod along and justify it by (keeping gran happy/what would the neighbours say/lots of people are hypocrites,etc) take your pick.

There’s a middle road. You could have your own opinions and live according to them by having civil marriage ceremony, secular naming ceremony for your child etc. But you can also respect other people’s way of doing things.

If I thought the parents were asking me to be godparent to offer their child Church of England guidance, then I’d have to decline. But if they just want us to be especially involved in their child’s life and offer support, then I’ll go through their religious ceremony to get to the important part down the road no problem.

robindch

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I intend to take my role as godparent seriously - take a special interest in the child, offer support and guidance etc.

You will be required to declare in public to the priest that you will do what you can to ensure that the child become religious. From the church's perspective, godparenthood is only about conformity to the church's messaging and not about the support, guidance and help which is what most people believe it is (and which certainly is a wonderful thing). As above - many people wouldn't sign up to do it since they would not not comfortable making a public declaration to do something which they would have no intention of doing.

Perhaps if one made it clear to everybody beforehand that one's accepting the honor in a secular fashion and would ignore the religious component, then one would then end up only lying to the priest. Or better still, one could speak with the priest beforehand to request a "lite" ceremony which doesn't require any declarations beyond helping out.

That would be an honorable scored-draw, but the priest may not do it, or like it if he did.

El_Duderino 09

robindch wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I intend to take my role as godparent seriously - take a special interest in the child, offer support and guidance etc.

You will be required to declare in public to the priest that you will do what you can to ensure that the child become religious. From the church's perspective, godparenthood is only about conformity to the church's messaging and not about the support, guidance and help which is what most people believe it is (and which certainly is a wonderful thing). As above - many people wouldn't sign up to do it since they would not not comfortable making a public declaration to do something which they would have no intention of doing.

Perhaps if one made it clear to everybody beforehand that one's accepting the honor in a secular fashion and would ignore the religious component, then one would then end up only lying to the priest. Or better still, one could speak with the priest beforehand to request a "lite" ceremony which doesn't require any declarations beyond helping out.

That would be an honorable scored-draw, but the priest may not do it, or like it if he did.

Well the parents went religious and they know we’re atheist and raised catholic. So we have no realistic hope of giving any church of England guidance to the child.

I’m sure they know we’re not religious. We had a secular wedding last year so I imagine we mentioned that we’re not religious. It would be easy enough to say ‘we’re delighted about being godparents but religious support isn’t my strong suit.’

I’ve no intention of speaking to the Vicar or causing any kind of fuss because it’s not my gig. I have no problem going along with the ceremony. It’s just theatre as far as we, and the parents AFAIK, are concerned. I’ve no problem telling a lie there. I don’t see it as a big injury to my honour.

lazygal

The role of godparent is religious, no matter what lies you want to tell yourself. There's far better ways of being involved than starting out telling lies and taking part in a ceremony you don't believe in. The sooner people stop going along with this fiction the better.

El_Duderino 09

lazygal wrote: »

The role of godparent is religious, no matter what lies you want to tell yourself. There's far better ways of being involved than starting out telling lies and taking part in a ceremony you don't believe in. The sooner people stop going along with this fiction the better.

I’m fairly sure the parents aren’t asking us to fulfil a religious role in the child’s life. But they do appreciate the special interest we take and the effort we go to to make sure we’re part of his development.

The ceremony is religious. The role the parents want us to fill, isn’t.

lazygal

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I’m fairly sure the parents aren’t asking us to fulfil a religious role in the child’s life. But they do appreciate the special interest we take and the effort we go to to make sure we’re part of his development.

The ceremony is religious. The role the parents want us to fill, isn’t.

It is religious. The clue is in the title, God parent. Don't be a God parent if you're not a believer in God.

DavyD_83

It will be interesting to see if there is a dramatic drop off in baptisms once the changes to school entry are actually in place and seen to be real.
Or will the people who just want a baptism without any commitment to the church just stay to provide a different excuse to support their latent faith/superstition.

Both my kids were baptised. I would have preferred if they weren't, as I do feel it is a bit of a mockery and that the whole school entry, missing out on communions etc is just a self-fulfilling cycle.

When I managed to argue rationally that school entry wasn't an issue and that was accepted, my wife said that she needed to know that they would be in the same afterlife as her, if there was one. She definitely doesn't have strong faith and has no intention of raising them to attend Mass or anything, but somewhere in her is the fear of taking that risk on their behalf.

On the specific topic, I have zero faith, (but also put no effort into atheism in the way a lot of people do) and would happily stand as godfather (or equivalent in any other religion) as long as the partnership involved knew my position and were comfortable with it.
I don't mind lying to priests; they've been doing it to the rest of us for years.
An aside, I have always wondered if pope, higher ups in all religions look on it all as a giant business and/or scam, or are actually convinced. I think the same about ceo's; do they believe their own pitches?

Sleeper12

DavyD_83 wrote:

It will be interesting to see if there is a dramatic drop off in baptisms once the changes to school entry are actually in place and seen to be real. Or will the people who just want a baptism without any commitment to the church just stay to provide a different excuse to support their latent faith/superstition.

I spend 6 to 10 weekends a y in Irish hotels. Most of these hotels have one we per day over the w inc Sundays. The vast majority of these have the ceremony in the hotel. In other words not a religious ceremony.

I don't know how this compares to church weddings but I'd hazard a guess that church weddings are way, way down. Most of the hotel weddings I see seems to be Dublin couples.