Removal of Change Reciepts on Dublin Bus Services.

vectorvictor

Stephen15 wrote: »

Perhaps it would be a good idea to print on all cash tickets what the fare would be if it was paid if it was paid using a Leap card.

Paper tickets could have the following wording printed on them.

Adult Single Cash: €3.30

With a Leap card this fare would be: €2.60 saving you €0.70
For more info on savings see Leapcard.ie You big overpaying eejet

Fixed that for you

Stephen15

heroics wrote: »

Logic would be not to introduce this until contactless was an option

If it was still possible to claim the change then when Go-Ahead takeover their share of the routes, people would essentially have to go to two separate locations to be able to claim their change depending on what route they are using which would just create unesscary confusion. That's the logic behind this.

heroics

vectorvictor wrote: »

Or to avail of the min 20% saving by getting a leap card , or to have the correct change for your journey. Contactless would be great but it's irrelevant in this scenario.

If people want to use the bus get a leap card or bring the right fare. If they can't be bothered doing either then I highly doubt they'd be bothered going to O'Connell Street to get their 20cent back

Contactless is not irrelevant in this scenario. Just because you can’t support it doesn’t make it irrelevant. If I use the bus once a year and the leap costs 5€ to buy and min 5€ credit then 20% savings means nothing.

I know the initial 5€ is refundable but that just adds hassle. If they really wanted to get customers to stop using cash then accept contactless for occasional users and leap for the rest.

vectorvictor

heroics wrote: »

Contactless is not irrelevant in this scenario. Just because you can’t support it doesn’t make it irrelevant. If I use the bus once a year and the leap costs 5€ to buy and min 5€ credit then 20% savings means nothing.

I know the initial 5€ is refundable but that just adds hassle. If they really wanted to get customers to stop using cash then accept contactless for occasional users and leap for the rest.

Leap card is essentially free. The deposit is just that, a deposit and I really don't see how that can be "hassle"

Contactless will be nice but it's not necessary and doesn't form a barrier to utilising the technology they do have which to be fair is a stable and competitive cashless option.

Its 1am and I'm debating leap cards ‚ So we'll agree to disagree

Stephen15

heroics wrote: »

I know the initial 5€ is refundable but that just adds hassle. If they really wanted to get customers to stop using cash then accept contactless for occasional users and leap for the rest.

It's easier to claim back the €5 deposit from a Leap card then it is to claim the 10 or 20 cent you overpayed in cash from O'Connell Street

MOH

vectorvictor wrote: »

Met with the response of "you are fully entitled to walk if you don't have to foresight to get a bus fare right"

Pretty much what I do these days, since after giving them well over a decade DB have utterly failed to get a bus service right. Still, maybe next century ....

howiya

Stephen15 wrote: »

It's easier to claim back the €5 deposit from a Leap card then it is to claim the 10 or 20 cent you overpayed in cash from O'Connell Street

Forgot the Leap Card the other week and didn't have any change. Would have had to go to the shop to get change so just bought a second leap card instead of getting change.

Registered the card online and claimed the €7.85 refund.

Got to thinking afterwards, how much does a transaction like that cost the NTA? The card itself, payzone commission and processing the refund payment?

Stephen15

howiya wrote: »

Forgot the Leap Card the other week and didn't have any change. Would have had to go to the shop to get change so just bought a second leap card instead of getting change.

Registered the card online and claimed the €7.85 refund.

Got to thinking afterwards, how much does a transaction like that cost the NTA? The card itself, payzone commission and processing the refund payment?

Less than handling cash I would say. One thing I wonder is what will happen to de-safers working for DB and GAI once cashless buses are introduced I guess they'll be redeployed perhaps as drivers.

gctest50

DivingDuck wrote: »

....

but there are undeniably a number of problems with the Leap system as a lot of people (basically all iPhone users) still can't do this.

iPhones can't encode data onto a tag, Android can - Apple are supposed to be enabling it this year

Not a Leap card / app problem, more a phone manufacturer with notions

Tickityboo

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Funny how this happens on the first day Go ahead start their operation.....

I said this a few years ago (can't find the post)that once go ahead starts that there will miraculously be a simplified fare structure.

CatInABox

Tickityboo wrote: »

I said this a few years ago (can't find the post)that once go ahead starts that there will miraculously be a simplified fare structure.

Well, this is coming as part of busconnects.....

punisher5112

Stephen15 wrote: »

Less than handling cash I would say. One thing I wonder is what will happen to de-safers working for DB and GAI once cashless buses are introduced I guess they'll be redeployed perhaps as drivers.

Most likely used for cleaning, refueling, moving of buses, retrained to service machines maybe or redundancy a possibility.

Hard to know but I'm sure they would have something to do.

Tickityboo

CatInABox wrote: »

Well, this is coming as part of busconnects.....

Busconnects wasn't a thing then!!

Lord Glentoran

Stephen15 wrote: »

dashcamdanny wrote: »

No more change tickets!

I hope they advertise that really well. Drivers are going to get it in the neck from angry customers as it is.

Why get rid of the change ticket? Why does cashless need steps ?

I guess it's because the NTA want to icentivise people to get a Leap card before completely abandoning cash. I presume they are getting rid of the change tickets because people would be confused where to go to get change from Go-Ahead tickets as they wouldn't be able to get it from the DB offices.

Cashless would be even better but that would create even more anger and confusion than getting rid of change tickets if was done now.

I guess it’s because the NTA can’t or won’t impose a fare system on Dublin Bus that would allow for proper use of leap cards without queueing up to speak to the driver first. Abandoning change receipts looks catchy, and that’s what matters.

GM228

xper wrote: »

Hmmm, does "all fare revenue" mean just the 'correct' fare or the fare plus the overpayments? Or does a gross cost contract operator get to keep the overpayments?

All fare revenue means exactly that - ALL, they keep all including the overpayments, in fairness to DB they do provide a lot of the unclaimed money to charity under the Community Spirit Initiative.

GM228

devnull wrote: »

The interesting bit in the release from Dublin Bus is the bit that says the extra payments will continue being used to help improve their services, since it's often been said on here and elsewhere that all the money was donated to the community fund, which now appears not to be the case.

Have never come across any DB statements which claimed all was donated, rather they implied some was donated. In fact there was a parliamentary question on the matter a few years ago where DB confirmed only some of it was given to charity, with the rest retained by DB with a rolling fund for payouts.

ebbsy

At the end of the day, it will not impact so many as they d'ont pay for the bus anyway.


Only the actual fare paying public will be affected.

dashcamdanny

Over payment receipts will now be issued instead of refund receipts.

It seems to me that they are purposely are trying to make everything as awkward and as slow as they can.

First with the last fare increase . They could have rounded 2.85 better. Why the 5c?

It is easy to tap .15c change receipt for 3 euro payments. Now people are going to be thumbing for the exact change. Holding the bus up.

Its bad enough dealing with idiots who stand and wait 15 mins at the bus stop, and choose to sort out change in front of the driver.

Now every cash payer will do that.

vectorvictor

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Over payment receipts will now be issued instead of refund receipts.

It seems to me that they are purposely are trying to make everything as awkward and as slow as they can.

First with the last fare increase . They could have rounded 2.85 better. Why the 5c?

It is easy to tap .15c change receipt for 3 euro payments. Now people are going to be thumbing for the exact change. Holding the bus up.

Its bad enough dealing with idiots who stand and wait 15 mins at the bus stop, and choose to sort out change in front of the driver.

Now every cash payer will do that.

Agree on the rounding. For as long as they are going to incentive non cash payments rather than forcing them , we will see this.

Flat fare of €5 for all journeys and routes would probably get that 70% leap card usage up to the 95-98% range.

punisher5112

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Over payment receipts will now be issued instead of refund receipts.

It seems to me that they are purposely are trying to make everything as awkward and as slow as they can.

First with the last fare increase . They could have rounded 2.85 better. Why the 5c?

It is easy to tap .15c change receipt for 3 euro payments. Now people are going to be thumbing for the exact change. Holding the bus up.

Its bad enough dealing with idiots who stand and wait 15 mins at the bus stop, and choose to sort out change in front of the driver.

Now every cash payer will do that.

The whole point all be it very very slow is to get away from cash...

Big plus.

The process is very slow and needs to be just fixed now.

I believe they are leaving the rest for bus connect as to make it look even better as dwell times will be slashed.


Right away education could speed things up big time.

Buses have ad boards and a sound system (p.a) that they could educate all those with student leap especially and others of course that they have a cash cap of €5 and that's all a day costs.

They still all come to the driver even when this cap has been reached and look for €1.50 and €2.15 fares but yet could easily use the reader at the door speeding the whole process up right away.

Leap has auto top up but yet many still get on with no credit and moan and huff and puff and then start looking for change.

If you look at the machine screen it shows you how much credit is left and also the cap for the day.

Anyone still paying cash is seriously needing a kick up the hole.

ebbsy

"Swedish buses have not taken cash for years, it is impossible to buy a ticket on the Stockholm metro with cash, retailers are legally entitled to refuse coins and notes, and street vendors – and even churches – increasingly prefer card or phone payments".

But then again, we ain't Sweden.

Dravokivich

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Over payment receipts will now be issued instead of refund receipts.

It seems to me that they are purposely are trying to make everything as awkward and as slow as they can.

First with the last fare increase . They could have rounded 2.85 better. Why the 5c?

It is easy to tap .15c change receipt for 3 euro payments. Now people are going to be thumbing for the exact change. Holding the bus up.

Its bad enough dealing with idiots who stand and wait 15 mins at the bus stop, and choose to sort out change in front of the driver.

Now every cash payer will do that.

Change receipts were only brought in because Dublin bus stopped giving change in the 90's. People should be well used to having the exact fare by now.

daheff

punisher5112 wrote: »

It will be because they won't want to have those extra costs such as a head office which the public can arrive at.

Costs will be lower.

More likely profits will be higher

punisher5112

daheff wrote: »

More likely profits will be higher

???

Costs lower tends to mean better profit¿??!!

Stephen15

Manix is outraged

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/dublin-bus-to-stop-refunds-of-cash-overpayments-863858.html

Rulmeq

Stephen15 wrote: »

Manix is outraged

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/dublin-bus-to-stop-refunds-of-cash-overpayments-863858.html

Heard him on the last word around 5:30 claiming that it's an illegal move - which it's not, there's no obligation to make change, retailers do by convention (becasue they would lose customers, to their competition), but it's not a legal requirement. Not that Matt would ever pick him up on his inaccuracies.

punisher5112

Stephen15 wrote: »

Manix is outraged

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/dublin-bus-to-stop-refunds-of-cash-overpayments-863858.html

What a fool.

They are playing him on 98fm news every time.

It's an outrage yada yada.....

No the outrage is the way working people can't afford to live in Dublin....

If you feel so bad get a leap card as this is the plan all along.


He really doesn't have a clue.

BonnieSituation

punisher5112 wrote: »

What a fool.

They are playing him on 98fm news every time.

It's an outrage yada yada.....

No the outrage is the way working people can't afford to live in Dublin....

If you feel so bad get a leap card as this is the plan all along.


He really doesn't have a clue.

Robert Troy complaining about this happening before a cashless system is introduced.

What's Leap?

I despair

john boye

Stephen15 wrote: »

Manix is outraged

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/dublin-bus-to-stop-refunds-of-cash-overpayments-863858.html

I would bet any money he has never heard of a leap card and has no idea how few use cash.

devnull

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Robert Troy complaining about this happening before a cashless system is introduced.

What's Leap?

I despair

And he is supposed to be FF's Transport Spokesman too!

devnull

GM228 wrote: »

Have never come across any DB statements which claimed all was donated, rather they implied some was donated. In fact there was a parliamentary question on the matter a few years ago where DB confirmed only some of it was given to charity, with the rest retained by DB with a rolling fund for payouts.

I never saw a statement from Dublin Bus saying it was all donated to the fund, but on the other hand I never saw a statement from them that implied that it was being at least partially spent on anything else, my point was, often I've seen it claimed on here and other discussion sites that all the money was donated to charity, which now we know not to be the case.

DivingDuck wrote: »

Now have access to an NFC Android phone, it is considerably less useless to me, but there are undeniably a number of problems with the Leap system as a lot of people (basically all iPhone users) still can't do this.

Unfortunately Apple have decided not to allow their NFC functionality to work with apps from external companies so there is nothing that the NTA can do about this particular issue until Apple stop trying to control everything so much and give their customers a bit more freedom to decide how they want to use their device.

It's ridiculous they're getting rid of the refund receipts now; they should have delayed this until their electronic system can support, at the very least, the use of contactless debit cards on boarding.

Unfortunately this is not something that the current ticket machines support as they are based on 20 year old technology. Aircoach are the only people who have been using contactless on their full fleet and that was a rather recent installation that had to involve some custom design work.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Perhaps it would be a good idea to print on all cash tickets what the fare would be if it was paid if it was paid using a Leap card.

Paper tickets could have the following wording printed on them.

Adult Single Cash: €3.30

With a Leap card this fare would be: €2.60 saving you: €0.70
For more info on savings see Leapcard.ie

The current ticket machines simply do not have the capacity to hold any more information in them than they already have, let alone have the space to have extra functionality programmed into them such as the above.

The reason that they're going for a over payment receipt is they can pretty much do that overnight by changing a few words and not need to program any additional functionality so it won't cause any ticket machine problems.

The fact is we have a 20 year old ticketing system, new functionality needs new ticket machines so we either adapt what functionality we have or make no changes at all until new machines come along.

heroics

john boye wrote: »

I would bet any money he has never heard of a leap card and has no idea how few use cash.

I asked this last night. How many journeys are paid in cash? Surely if it was only a couple of percent they would have included that in their justification for example this will only effect x number of customers out of y total.

KD345

heroics wrote: »

I asked this last night. How many journeys are paid in cash? Surely if it was only a couple of percent they would have included that in their justification for example this will only effect x number of customers out of y total.

70% of Dublin Bus passengers use Leap.

Spanish Eyes

Look, this is all a storm in a teacup. Marketing for LEAP is poor IMV regarding the occasional user of PT who currently uses cash. Look at McGregor's father in his Boss suit for example!

I know that getting rid of cash fares will take time, but it needs to be ramped up now.

A flat fare on Leap is imperative too. The dwell time on buses for those not using the read machine is just incredible. I suppose it will happen in time for Bus Connects.

Anyway those who pay cash won't get change or a refund. Good move. Invest a fiver in a LEAP card and you are good to go. The fiver is your emergency stash remember! I still blame LEAP for not marketing this product aggressively enough though.

EdgeCase

punisher5112 wrote: »

Here is a photo of notice.

No more change.....

Very poorly written and unclear poster!

Are we right?

Trying to be far too clever.

They need a simple notice:

FROM XX/XX/XX
NO CHANGE WILL BE GIVEN ON CASH FARES.
CHANGE RECEIPTS WILL NO LONGER BE ISSUED.

I appreciate they want to move on from cash, but they will still confuse people and they will be the passengers who are hardest to communicate with and most unfamiliar with the service.

There's no point in trying to turn it into a positive story. It's a removal of a facility to convenience the companies involved and push people over to Leap.

heroics

KD345 wrote: »

70% of Dublin Bus passengers use Leap.

I saw that and there was nearly 140 million journeys on Dublin bus last year. That makes nearly 40 million journeys not using leap. Hardly an insignificant number of people that will be effected by this.

Reason I asked again was someone said last night that the 30% probably includes free travel but I can’t find any figures for that.

EdgeCase

For casual users, an ability to pay using EMV - Visa, MasterCard, ApplePay, Google Pay etc would make a lot of sense.

I'd assume they'd only do it if it wasn't going to cost them money though.

heroics

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Look, this is all a storm in a teacup. Marketing for LEAP is poor IMV regarding the occasional user of PT who currently uses cash. Look at McGregor's father in his Boss suit for example!

I know that getting rid of cash fares will take time, but it needs to be ramped up now.

A flat fare on Leap is imperative too. The dwell time on buses for those not using the read machine is just incredible. I suppose it will happen in time for Bus Connects.

Anyway those who pay cash won't get change or a refund. Good move. Invest a fiver in a LEAP card and you are good to go. The fiver is your emergency stash remember! I still blame LEAP for not marketing this product aggressively enough though.

But what about the occasional used that don’t want to have to carry a leap card for the one or two times a year I get the bus

Occasional bus users are also much less likely to know what the exact fare is

EdgeCase

I don't use Irish busses that often, but I was on a Bus Éireann service in Cork and I found the whole Leap Card experience slow. I tapped the card and it didn't read and had to be left on the machine. There was a bit of a collective sigh as I held up the queue expecting the system to work like every other bus system I've used in Europe i.e. tap and board.

If they've flat fares, they could also use multiple validators scattered around the bus, common elsewhere.

The dwell times in Ireland are generally very long compared to what you see elsewhere.

Nermal

heroics wrote: »

But what about the occasional used that don’t want to have to carry a leap card for the one or two times a year I get the bus

Occasional bus users are also much less likely to know what the exact fare is

Because reducing dwell times helps commuters, and commuters are more important than occasional users. Why would a bus system be designed around people who use it 'one or two times a year'? Obviously, if other NFC cards/devices could be made to work - great. That they don't work yet is no reason to hold up cashless flat fare ticketing. Watching a tourist negotiating a journey with a driver in broken English and fumbling through coinage makes me feel like I'm living in the bloody stone age.

whiskeyman

KD345 wrote: »

70% of Dublin Bus passengers use Leap.

Anyone else think this is low?
Does the remaining 30% include cash only, or a mix of free pass / other cards?
I only use the bus a handful of times a year but still have a leap card.

There really is no valid argument for cash.

Qrt

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Robert Troy complaining about this happening before a cashless system is introduced.

What's Leap?

I despair

Was this on 98FM too?

DivingDuck

gctest50 wrote: »

iPhones can't encode data onto a tag, Android can - Apple are supposed to be enabling it this year

Not a Leap card / app problem, more a phone manufacturer with notions

devnull wrote: »

Unfortunately Apple have decided not to allow their NFC functionality to work with apps from external companies so there is nothing that the NTA can do about this particular issue until Apple stop trying to control everything so much and give their customers a bit more freedom to decide how they want to use their device.

Apple are not the problem here. Dublin Bus is aware that not all of its customers have access to an NFC device, and should not be relying on this feature to allow customers to top up their cards.

Apple is not a small brand with a tiny market share, but beyond that: not all Android phones can do this, either. Many of the budget models can't (as I discovered when trying to get an NFC enabled phone for under 200e). A lot of bus users (especially younger ones and those on a restricted income) will be using a budget phone. Between the iPhone/dumbphone/budget Android users, there's a decent proportion of Dublin Bus customers who don't have access to an NFC device.

The Leap system is great for the rail lines, where they can be topped up at stations, but it's hopeless for the bus system where sometimes you would have to add a long time to your journey to top up, and that's assuming the top-up points are even open. Considering a lot of them in the suburbs are small shops that might close at 6pm, that's not helpful. My old top-up point meant a 30 minute walk (ten minutes away from my house, ten back, then another ten to the bus stop), always closed at 6pm, and shut its doors for good in the last year or two. I've no idea where my nearest point is now, which to me shows how restrictive and unhelpful the system is from a consumer's point of view.

gctest50 wrote: »

The fact is we have a 20 year old ticketing system, new functionality needs new ticket machines so we either adapt what functionality we have or make no changes at all until new machines come along.

I completely appreciate that there are technical limitations with the current system, but as you admit here: they could have gone with making no changes until they had better technology. This would have been much more reasonable and fairer to the customer.

They chose poorly.

BonnieSituation

DivingDuck wrote: »

Apple are not the problem here. Dublin Bus is aware that not all of its customers have access to an NFC device, and should not be relying on this feature to allow customers to top up their cards.

Apple is not a small brand with a tiny market share, but beyond that: not all Android phones can do this, either. Many of the budget models can't (as I discovered when trying to get an NFC enabled phone for under 200e). A lot of bus users (especially younger ones and those on a restricted income) will be using a budget phone. Between the iPhone/dumbphone/budget Android users, there's a decent proportion of Dublin Bus customers who don't have access to an NFC device.

The Leap system is great for the rail lines, where they can be topped up at stations, but it's hopeless for the bus system where sometimes you would have to add a long time to your journey to top up, and that's assuming the top-up points are even open. Considering a lot of them in the suburbs are small shops that might close at 6pm, that's not helpful. My old top-up point meant a 30 minute walk (ten minutes away from my house, ten back, then another ten to the bus stop), always closed at 6pm, and shut its doors for good in the last year or two. I've no idea where my nearest point is now, which to me shows how restrictive and unhelpful the system is from a consumer's point of view.



I completely appreciate that there are technical limitations with the current system, but as you admit here: they could have gone with making no changes until they had better technology. This would have been much more reasonable and fairer to the customer.

They chose poorly.

So should the NTA not have bothered with a top up app because not everyone could use it on their phone?

There have been seriously bizarre posts in this thread but this one is special.

n!ghtmancometh

You can top up at any Luas or Irish Rail TVM. You can top up in shops, and you can enable auto top up from your bank account. If you don't want to use any of those reasonable options to save a significant % off a cash bus fare, then onus is on you to have the exact fare, or lose whatever you overpaid. There is no credible argument for not using Leap imo.

vectorvictor

Regarding comments about percentage of leap users.

I think the real figure that is important is that just 17% of change receipts get redeemed.

So in reality that reduces the 30% of cash customers "impacted" to below 5%

john boye

heroics wrote: »

I saw that and there was nearly 140 million journeys on Dublin bus last year. That makes nearly 40 million journeys not using leap. Hardly an insignificant number of people that will be effected by this.

Reason I asked again was someone said last night that the 30% probably includes free travel but I can’t find any figures for that.

Why wouldn't the 30% include FPTs? It would be very odd not to, especially given how many holders you see using the bus

Hurrache

vectorvictor wrote: »

Strongly support this , it removes the messing and is about educating people to go cashless. Can only be a positive thing especially when some (albeit undisclosed percentage) goes to community spirit , they do some really good work with this

I'd love to go cashless like I can on the Luas, using Visa debit.

heroics

john boye wrote: »

Why wouldn't the 30% include FPTs? It would be very odd not to, especially given how many holders you see using the bus

All I was saying was that the numbers are hard to find. Dublin bus must know these. If it only effected a small number of users surely they would say that. Completely made up example: of the 140 million journeys we this would only effect 10 thousand. As the number of journeys is so large even if it effects 5% of journeys that still 7 million effected by this change

Dravokivich

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So should the NTA not have bothered with a top up app because not everyone could use it on their phone?

There have been seriously bizarre posts in this thread but this one is special.

You'd be surprised how many people I've seen casually make that remark.

With regards to other contactless methods. The leap card itself is a precursor to implementing those. They won't work without the appropriate backends in place. And eventually it is on a long term plan. It's not an easy thing to implement. Too many people seem to forget with the advances in technology, services and applications still take a long time to develop, test and implement.

Was anyone truly surprised by Sony's comments lately about their difficulties keeping android updated on a wide range of phones, compared to Apple with iOS on a relatively limited range of devices?