Third level education meaningless?.

mariaalice

Mostly in an Irish context.

If everybody goes to college does third level college just become meaningless

on the other hand.

There are a lot of jobs that require X piece of paper from a third level institution or the person would not get the job.

jamesbere

It's only meaningless if you can't get a job out of it.

riffmongous

Hm.. you still learn a lot of skills and techniques in analysis and problems solving in most university courses that are pretty much useful in every area of life, that you don't really get or comprehend in 2nd level

The_Kew_Tour

No I don't.

But picking a course where there is excellent job opportunities is like the important thing.

riffmongous

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

No I don't.

But picking a course where their is excellent job opportunities is like the important thing.

For the vast majority, but you also don't want it to be the be all and end all, otherwise I wonder if you could end up with a brain drain in critical research areas

Trigger Happy

Some 3rd level qualifications are a lot more valuable than others.
And if most/all the other applicants for a job gave one then it puts you at a disadvantage if you don’t.
That said, the cream always rises to the top so in a lot of industries it ceases mattering after five or so years imo if the person is good enough.

PlaneSpeeking

I hope not, I'll be out of a job!!!

meaningless? No, because we live in a society whereby companies, governments and educational bodies have worked hard to ensure that you need a third-level qualification for many positions. The days of showing up for an interview without appropriate education is essentially gone the way of the Dodo. It still happens, but it happens due to connections rather than basing it on the interview or perceived ability of the candidate.

Beyond that though, University programs with the exception of technical or practical fields are generally out of date, badly managed and fall far short of what employers want from candidates... In the vast majority of cases, companies will retrain new employees in their duties.

I have a bachelor in Finance and a MBA. Both were necessary for me to achieve promotions within my particular niche industry, as were the dozens of credit control diplomas, auditing, basic accounting practices, and business legal frameworks. And yet, everything was rechecked within the companies I worked for to ensure standards were kept, because there was so little belief that universities would provide actual useful understanding of the material.

So.. meaningless? No. We have a system that is encouraging the need for further education to qualify you for particular roles. 20 years ago there weren't any diplomas or industry standard courses for my niche area of Credit Control, Debt reconciliation, or such. Now, there's dozens of them, and if you want to reach higher management, you need to have at least a couple under your belt.

But, yes, meaningless, in that, it's simply holding of the qualification rather than any actual aptitude or skill that's important. [Except in practical or technical fields like medicine, Engineering etc, where courses actually teach something useful for the jobs themselves]

Your Face

If someone has graduated from the School of Hard Knocks, I'll hire them straight away.

That's a really tough school you know.

D3V!L

Only if its an arts degree.

spotifiedman

I did my LC for the second time, got my results last week and did real poorly. I'm not going to uni and without any relevant experience, I can't get a job at Argos, Boots.

Do you think there's any hope for me?

username2013

riffmongous wrote: »

Hm.. you still learn a lot of skills and techniques in analysis and problems solving in most university courses that are pretty much useful in every area of life, that you don't really get or comprehend in 2nd level

Not sure I agree with that. I think you can learn most of those skills in the workplace. Myself, I have a bachelors degree in computing and I work as a software engineer. Pretty much all my skills have come from working not university. The degree was useful in getting my foot in the door so to speak, but nowadays you don't really need that in software engineering at least, if you can code to the sufficient standard most places don't care where you learnt it.

If I were a 18 year old these days I would think very carefully about whether I want to spend a large amount of money to go to university/college, when essentially all the information you will learn is available for very little money or free online. It's not too bad in Ireland, but places like the US etc are crazy expensive.

That being said I don't think you could apply the above to all professions, e.g -medicine etc, I think you still need formal 3rd level education

NOVA MCMXCIV

spotifiedman wrote: »

I did my LC for the second time, got my results last week and did real poorly. I'm not going to uni and without any relevant experience, I can't get a job at Argos, Boots.

Do you think there's any hope for me?

Yes!! You just need to think out of the box! There IS hope for you!!!

cantdecide

spotifiedman wrote: »

I did my LC for the second time, got my results last week and did real poorly. I'm not going to uni and without any relevant experience, I can't get a job at Argos, Boots.

Do you think there's any hope for me?

Of course there is but ffs don't do what I did - wait until I was in my 30s to get a degree part time. It's been a painful few years. Do yourself a favour and get some kind of training or some kind of profession now rather than falling between the stools like I did when I was your age and in your situation. At least choose an apprenticeship and at very least try and get some kind of specific skills. You can go to Argos and be a generalist 'til the cows but no matter how hard you work, subjective knowlege is worthless. At very VERY least, consider joining the army or navy and taking on some vocational skill there.

You don't have to worry about where you'll be in the next five years because flux is always a big part of life but it would more pertinent to think about how you spend the next five years as tgat could give you some foundation and options. I think the objective for the next few years for you should entail being satisfied that finishing the sentence 'I am a ____' in a way that's useful to your older self. Trust me, 5 years is absolutely nothing and reinventing yourself only gets harder as you get older (I've had this so many times in the last 8 odd years and it's fatiguing).

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

riffmongous wrote: »

Hm.. you still learn a lot of skills and techniques in analysis and problems solving in most university courses that are pretty much useful in every area of life, that you don't really get or comprehend in 2nd level

True.

Learning to think at a high level is far more important than doing a course that leads directly to a job.

Many people wind up doing jobs that didn't even exist at the time they filled out their CAO forms.

Mac_Lad71

D3V!L wrote: »

Only if its an arts degree.

That is a complete and utter myth.
The key to a successful and productive third level education is firstly the student choosing a course with content they are interested in whether that be STEM, Law, Medicine or Arts. A person is much more likely to be good at something they are interested in.
As a mature student who returned to University to study Arts, I have attended employment fairs on campus and have been told by prospective employers that they look at results first then subjects studied in an Arts degree.
These employers are primarily interested in those who gain first class honours and value the critical thinking and research skills that an Arts degree provides.
Arts is considered easy to pass but it is really difficult to do well in.
Also by combining a language such as German or Chinese with a traditional Arts subject students are adding another string to their bow in terms of employment.

OEP

[Deleted User] wrote: »

meaningless? No, because we live in a society whereby companies, governments and educational bodies have worked hard to ensure that you need a third-level qualification for many positions. The days of showing up for an interview without appropriate education is essentially gone the way of the Dodo. It still happens, but it happens due to connections rather than basing it on the interview or perceived ability of the candidate.

Beyond that though, University programs with the exception of technical or practical fields are generally out of date, badly managed and fall far short of what employers want from candidates... In the vast majority of cases, companies will retrain new employees in their duties.

I have a bachelor in Finance and a MBA. Both were necessary for me to achieve promotions within my particular niche industry, as were the dozens of credit control diplomas, auditing, basic accounting practices, and business legal frameworks. And yet, everything was rechecked within the companies I worked for to ensure standards were kept, because there was so little belief that universities would provide actual useful understanding of the material.

So.. meaningless? No. We have a system that is encouraging the need for further education to qualify you for particular roles. 20 years ago there weren't any diplomas or industry standard courses for my niche area of Credit Control, Debt reconciliation, or such. Now, there's dozens of them, and if you want to reach higher management, you need to have at least a couple under your belt.

But, yes, meaningless, in that, it's simply holding of the qualification rather than any actual aptitude or skill that's important. [Except in practical or technical fields like medicine, Engineering etc, where courses actually teach something useful for the jobs themselves]

Degrees aren't meant as job training. It's to further your knowledge of the subject, not prepare you to do a specific job. If you do well in the degree there's a high correlation that you will be good, at least at the beginning, at a job in that area. Of course, after a few years your degree is irrelevant and experience is what matters.

cantdecide

OEP wrote: »

Degrees aren't meant as job training. It's to further your knowledge of the subject, not prepare you to do a specific job. If you do well in the degree there's a high correlation that you will be good, at least at the beginning, at a job in that area. Of course, after a few years your degree is irrelevant and experience is what matters.

Yeah, I've spent four years doing a business degree and basically, the knowledge helped fill some gaps but realistically, it's only a piece of paper. I've called the whole thing 'intellectualised common sense' so many times. You need a combination of knowledge and skills. I'm now going to have to find an evening class just to flesh out my admin skills enough to be useful to me and an employer.

Cina

Meaningless?

I lost my virginity at uni, don't you dare try to tell me it's meaningless!

Donald Trump

Not all degrees are equal.


You can get a proper, worldwide respected, degree from say Trinity or RCSI; or get some mickey mouse toilet paper replacement from the likes of UCD or UCC or Athlone IT.


For the latter three you'd be better off spending 4 years pulling yourself off non-stop.


Although I heard that for UCD in particular, that's actually part of the practical lab exams for a lot of the courses.

Hector Bellend

Some third level courseS are relevant.

Some are bullplop.

SEPT 23 1989

spotifiedman wrote: »

I did my LC for the second time, got my results last week and did real poorly. I'm not going to uni and without any relevant experience, I can't get a job at Argos, Boots.

Do you think there's any hope for me?

Do an apprenticeship

Donald Trump

spotifiedman wrote: »

I did my LC for the second time, got my results last week and did real poorly. I'm not going to uni and without any relevant experience, I can't get a job at Argos, Boots.

Do you think there's any hope for me?

Get yourself a well-off woman with a house.


There's this current-minor-celebrity wan called Margaret Cash that's temporarily single at the minute. She's in line for a grand big house somewhere.


Now is your window of opportunity to make your move before her fella gets let out.

billyhead

Deleted User wrote: »

meaningless? No, because we live in a society whereby companies, governments and educational bodies have worked hard to ensure that you need a third-level qualification for many positions. The days of showing up for an interview without appropriate education is essentially gone the way of the Dodo. It still happens, but it happens due to connections rather than basing it on the interview or perceived ability of the candidate.

Beyond that though, University programs with the exception of technical or practical fields are generally out of date, badly managed and fall far short of what employers want from candidates... In the vast majority of cases, companies will retrain new employees in their duties.

I have a bachelor in Finance and a MBA. Both were necessary for me to achieve promotions within my particular niche industry, as were the dozens of credit control diplomas, auditing, basic accounting practices, and business legal frameworks. And yet, everything was rechecked within the companies I worked for to ensure standards were kept, because there was so little belief that universities would provide actual useful understanding of the material.

So.. meaningless? No. We have a system that is encouraging the need for further education to qualify you for particular roles. 20 years ago there weren't any diplomas or industry standard courses for my niche area of Credit Control, Debt reconciliation, or such. Now, there's dozens of them, and if you want to reach higher management, you need to have at least a couple under your belt.

But, yes, meaningless, in that, it's simply holding of the qualification rather than any actual aptitude or skill that's important. [Except in practical or technical fields like medicine, Engineering etc, where courses actually teach something useful for the jobs themselves]

True,
A 3rd level qualification is useful for getting your foot in the door. But once inside you output, effort and commitment will get you up the ladder unless you are studying for a profession such as medicine, engineering, law etc. TBH I believe your better off working during the day full time and studying at night as a lot of days are wasted studying full time i.e one or 2 tutorials in which attendance is compulsory every odd day and then about 2-3 lectures a day. You may as well be productive and work full time aswell.

_Brian

riffmongous wrote: »

Hm.. you still learn a lot of skills and techniques in analysis and problems solving in most university courses that are pretty much useful in every area of life, that you don't really get or comprehend in 2nd level

This is the point rather than the piece of paper and title.

James Brown

mariaalice wrote: »

Mostly in an Irish context.

If everybody goes to college does third level college just become meaningless

on the other hand.

There are a lot of jobs that require X piece of paper from a third level institution or the person would not get the job.

If everybody goes to school does education become meaningless? I'd say no.
We improve the quality of the workforce which helps out society, I'd say the economy but private concerns have dibs on any profits accrued with that.

On a personal level if a degree becomes commonplace, you'd want to get one to remain relevant.

jmayo

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Do an apprenticeship

Go for plumbing in particular.

When the sh** literally hits the fan, the pipes burst or the central heating goes during the winter they are the most welcome sight in the world.
And you pay accordingly.

billyhead

billyhead wrote: »

True,
A 3rd level qualification is useful for getting your foot in the door. But once inside you output, effort and commitment will get you up the ladder unless you are studying for a profession such as medicine, engineering, law etc.

Not strictly true. Most managerial or executive positions at mid/top levels for corporate level require at least a MBA or MBF. In some areas such as sales or marketing, you can get by on your past performance, and your ability to network, but in other areas such as Finance, logistics, etc then there is a definite need for more formal qualifications.

TBH I believe your better off working during the day full time and studying at night as a lot of days are wasted studying full time i.e one or 2 tutorials in which attendance is compulsory every odd day and then about 2-3 lectures a day. You may as well be productive and work full time aswell.

It's really quite difficult to commit yourself to long-term study while maintaining a full time job. I did it, but it wasn't the most productive use of my time.

TBH I'd be inclined to recommend mentoring programs (with execs) combined with self-study. Some universities will allow people to sit the exams in spite of not attending the classes should they pay the required fees. The problem though is that you're still being judged on the perception of the lecturers, who probably have very little practical experience and rely more heavily on the theoretical.

I went back to university in my mid-30s to get some advanced degrees relating to business management, and you wouldn't believe the arguments I had with lecturers over what they considered impractical even though the cases used were highly effective/profitable in the real world. You get a lot of very narrow minded lecturers at university levels...

However, the best period of learning I've had was three years of being mentored by past partners in two companies I worked in. Admittedly I was being groomed for specific positions, but the concept remains. This kind of learning is far better IMHO. (I now lecture at University level abroad... haha)