Border Poll discussion

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So why do you think the Protestant population was decimated in roi while the catholic population flourished in the north?

The reasons are nuanced by many factors. The initial surge was Unionists (who happened to be Protestant) leaving. A political rather than a religious decision.

Catholic dominance also resulted in Protestants of mixed marriage having to bring up their offspring as RC (since abandoned) resulting in it dying off in subsequent generations.

As stated by another poster, many British personnel also left.
Unionist Catholics also left in reasonably large numbers.
As to why the Catholic faith rose in the north, I presume it was because the sectarian state thought it would always be in control. How much bigger would it be if they enjoyed equal rights and parity of oppotunity and esteem?

The southern Protestant population is in recovery in the south you'll be glad to know, up to 4.2% at the last census.

downcow

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

In what way?

Any examples?

At a very basic level they couldn’t get jobs in the civil service or guards cause they didn’t speak Irish. It was also a Catholic Church state
Could you give me a few examples of how catholics were discriminated against in NI

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

At a very basic level they couldn’t get jobs in the civil service or guards cause they didn’t speak Irish.

Nobody could.

downcow

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I suggest that you will find that in quite a few of the existing records of protestants who did indeed face intimidation, that those same protestants played an active role in supporting the British state during the war and the intimidation that they faced was as a reprisal for their actions

I think you will find that is the same reason hardline unionists on NI will give for any discrimination against catholics. ie all based on vegence and suspicion. No acceptable or tolerable.

Perifect

downcow wrote: »

Well I’m sure you can provide evidence of what you are saying. But I can assure you I know loads of prods who moved out of roi and not a single one of them were offered jobs or houses in the north nor were they military or civil servants. So I am certainly not convinced by your denials of discrimination

I think you've been given more than enough evidence at this stage. It's not your fault you believed the myth. I think it's been repeated quite a lot and even books have been written on the matter (by disgraced authors it has to be said). Protestants have gotten on very well in the south. Many have got some very high ranking jobs. We all get along because we're all Irish and like I've said, there's very little difference between any of us on this island.

Imreoir2

downcow wrote: »

At a very basic level they couldn’t get jobs in the civil service or guards cause they didn’t speak Irish. It was also a Catholic Church state
Could you give me a few examples of how catholics were discriminated against in NI

How exactly is the Irish language a tool of discrimination against protestants when the vast majority of catholics spoke no more Irish than the average prod? Surely for discrimination to be discrimination, it has to discriminate in some way?

Ireland was not a "Catholic Church State", while the Catholic church undeniably had a major influence, the Catholic Church was sepcificly denied oficial status as the state religion in Ireland, in contrast to the UK's relationship with Anglicanism.

As for catholics being discriminated against in NI, there were literal pogroms. Catholics were burned out of their homes.

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

At a very basic level they couldn’t get jobs in the civil service or guards cause they didn’t speak Irish. It was also a Catholic Church state

This applied to anyone , religion was irrelevant.

Could you give me a few examples of how catholics were discriminated against in NI

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/specialreports/fight-for-civil-rights-50-years-ago-changed-the-north-forever-873911.html

Perifect

downcow wrote: »

I think you will find that is the same reason hardline unionists on NI will give for any discrimination against catholics. ie all based on vegence and suspicion. No acceptable or tolerable.

Are you ignoring the rest of their post? And the link he provided. I think you should read it.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody could.

I accept your point and I’ll have to consider shifting my thinking based on it. But perception is really important. Many people don’t realise that Protestant working class housing was just as bad as catholics and jobs were hard to come by for most. Yes I accept prods got some scraps that catholics didn’t and that was wrong. But roi needs to be mature enough to realise Protestants had a very hard station in their catholic country as well Maybe next generation will get it

Perifect

downcow wrote: »

I accept your point and I’ll have to consider shifting my thinking based on it. But perception is really important. Many people don’t realise that Protestant working class housing was just as bad as catholics and jobs were hard to come by for most. Yes I accept prods got some scraps that catholics didn’t and that was wrong. But roi needs to be mature enough to realise Protestants had a very hard station in their catholic country as well Maybe next generation will get it

The evidence is there for you. You can continue to believe the myth if you so wish but the fact remains that protestants got on very well in the south, they continue to do so and they will in a United Ireland as well.

downcow

Imreoir2 wrote: »

How exactly is the Irish language a tool of discrimination against protestants when the vast majority of catholics spoke no more Irish than the average prod? Surely for discrimination to be discrimination, it has to discriminate in some way?

Ireland was not a "Catholic Church State", while the Catholic church undeniably had a major influence, the Catholic Church was sepcificly denied oficial status as the state religion in Ireland, in contrast to the UK's relationship with Anglicanism.

As for catholics being discriminated against in NI, there were literal pogroms. Catholics were burned out of their homes.

Interesting point. I was led to believe prods couldn’t get jobs because they didn’t speak Irish and all catholics did. And you were led to believe catholics couldn’t get jobs or houses and prods could. Sounds like the working class were not very well served in either state

Imreoir2

downcow wrote: »

I think you will find that is the same reason hardline unionists on NI will give for any discrimination against catholics. ie all based on vegence and suspicion. No acceptable or tolerable.

I think the point is that in many of the cases for which evidence exists of protestants being intimidated in the South, there is often evidence of those individual protestants having brought such a reprisal upon themselves as a result of their actions during wartime. (Collaboration, spying, informing etc)

In the north however there is a large amount of evidence of violence, intimidation and discrimination against many catholics, not because of any specific political actions by those individuals but simply because of their membership of an ethnic minority that the NI state considered to be suspect.

downcow

Perifect wrote: »

The evidence is there for you. You can continue to believe the myth if you so wish but the fact remains that protestants got on very well in the south, they continue to do so and they will in a United Ireland as well.

I think you might be just a generation behind us. We used to think catholics had been treated fine in NI (some still do think that) but most of us have faced up to the reality that catholics were not treated fairly here. I trust time will allow you to recognise the ill treatment of unionists in the south

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I accept your point and I’ll have to consider shifting my thinking based on it. But perception is really important. Many people don’t realise that Protestant working class housing was just as bad as catholics and jobs were hard to come by for most. Yes I accept prods got some scraps that catholics didn’t and that was wrong. But roi needs to be mature enough to realise Protestants had a very hard station in their catholic country as well Maybe next generation will get it

We know the road to where we are now has been traumatic for a great deal of the people of this island.
There is no excuse in the modern age for persisting in the belief of myths. The history is all there to be seen by everyone.
That you have convinced yourself that there was a similarity between the systemic sectarian treatment by the Unionism of Catholics and the treatment of Protestants in the south by successive Irish governments, is scary. That you continue to ignore facts placed before you is scarier still.

Imreoir2

downcow wrote: »

But roi needs to be mature enough to realise Protestants had a very hard station in their catholic country as well Maybe next generation will get it

You will find that there are more than a few southern Protestants who reject that idea with scorn and resent being wrongly used as a tool for criticising the southern state.

downcow

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I think the point is that in many of the cases for which evidence exists of protestants being intimidated in the South, there is often evidence of those individual protestants having brought such a reprisal upon themselves as a result of their actions during wartime. (Collaboration, spying, informing etc)

In the north however there is a large amount of evidence of violence, intimidation and discrimination against many catholics, not because of any specific political actions by those individuals but simply because of their membership of an ethnic minority that the NI state considered to be suspect.

Do you recognise the intimidation, violence and murder against Protestants in the north just because of there ethnic group or do you not see that either??

downcow

Imreoir2 wrote: »

You will find that there are more than a few southern Protestants who reject that idea with scorn and resent being wrongly used as a tool for criticising the southern state.

Oh I absolutely agree with you there. I know some of them personally.
And I could take you to similar catholics in the north who have also done very nicely

Imreoir2

downcow wrote: »

Do you recognise the intimidation, violence and murder against Protestants in the north just because of there ethnic group or do you not see that either??

The murder of protestants in the north? Yes, some protestants in the north were murdered during the brutal sectarian conflict that developed there.

It is entirely wrong to suggest that there was a similarity between the situation faced by southern protestants and northern catholics. While both were members of a minority community in their respective states, the levels of discrimination, intimidation and violence faced by northern catholics had no counterpart for protestants in the south.

It should also be pointed out that while the majority protestant population in the north faced violent opposition from a segment of the catholic minority, again there was no counterpart to that in the south. The majority catholic population did not face any violent opposition from any segment of the protestants minority in the south.

The situations north and south were not the same! The south handled its intercommunity relationship between protestants and catholics far far better than the north.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

you were led to believe catholics couldn’t get jobs or houses and prods could.

So... it's not true?

downcow

Imreoir2 wrote: »

The murder of protestants in the north? Yes, some protestants in the north were murdered during the brutal sectarian conflict that developed there.

It is entirely wrong to suggest that there was a similarity between the situation faced by southern protestants and northern catholics. While both were members of a minority community in their respective states, the levels of discrimination, intimidation and violence faced by northern catholics had no counterpart for protestants in the south.

It should also be pointed out that while the majority protestant population in the north faced violent opposition from a segment of the catholic minority, again there was no counterpart to that in the south. The majority catholic population did not face any violent opposition from any segment of the protestants minority in the south.

The situations north and south were not the same! The south handled its intercommunity relationship between protestants and catholics far far better than the north.

I am baffled why you think that creating circumstances where the population dropped from 10% to 3% percent is a success. It’s hard to argue against facts with some emotional stories.
What percentage of Protestants were on the state forces in the south or the civil service? I have been told but have no evidence at the minute so won’t quote it. Would you have stats? It might be hard for you to argue against that.
Also you will find from peace work around the world that when minorities are below 20% they are inclined to keep their heads down and mouths shut. When they are over 20% they are likely to challenge discrimination. That is the main difference in north and south.

Imreoir2

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

So... it's not true?

Presumably he has a catholic friend with a job and a house, so catholics clearly did not face discrimination.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

So... it's not true?

No it’s not that simple. Many prods couldn’t get jobs or houses either. But catholics found it even more difficult.
I reckon there are still many down south who think catholics didn’t have a vote in NI Do you think that’s what many still think?

downcow

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Presumably he has a catholic friend with a job and a house, so catholics clearly did not face discrimination.

A bit like you know a Protestant in roi who says he wasn’t discriminated against so therefore none of them were

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

No it’s not that simple. Many prods couldn’t get jobs or houses either. But catholics found it even more difficult.
I reckon there are still many down south who think catholics didn’t have a vote in NI Do you think that’s what many still think?

The people of the south know well what gerrymandering was and what it was intended to achieve - Unionist supremacy.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The people of the south know well what gerrymandering was and what it was intended to achieve - Unionist supremacy.

Absolutely. I agree again with you. That is undeniable. It was also unacceptable. Most unionists up north don’t deny that there was discrimination. It was a painful journey to come to that acceptance. Many in roi have that journey in front of them to understand why so many people felt they needed to leave roi

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

A bit like you know a Protestant in roi who says he wasn’t discriminated against so therefore none of them were

The poster you are replying to has posted an informative and detailed post you have chosen to ignore.

That is not really fair of you tbh.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Absolutely. I agree again with you. That is undeniable. It was also unacceptable. Most unionists up north don’t deny that there was discrimination. It was a painful journey to come to that acceptance. Many in roi have that journey in front of them to understand why so many people felt they needed to leave roi

We do understand why, you are just ignoring the posted information to persist in the myths.
If you have 'facts' not anecdotes please counter the information posted here.

Imreoir2

downcow wrote: »

I am baffled why you think that creating circumstances where the population dropped from 10% to 3% percent is a success. It’s hard to argue against facts with some emotional stories.
What percentage of Protestants were on the state forces in the south or the civil service? I have been told but have no evidence at the minute so won’t quote it. Would you have stats? It might be hard for you to argue against that.
Also you will find from peace work around the world that when minorities are below 20% they are inclined to keep their heads down and mouths shut. When they are over 20% they are likely to challenge discrimination. That is the main difference in north and south.

I can only refer you to my previous post on the issue and the source that goes with it. If you want to blame the southern state for the decline of the protestant population, then you are blaming it for WW1 war deaths, the fact that the southern protestant population had an ageing and naturally declining population prior to independance, the fact that pre-independance figures for the number of protestants in the south included a cohort of English/Scottish/Welsh protestants who were residing in this region of the then UK because of the presence of the British state and its army and who chose to go home (or were orderd by their superiors to leave) when the British state withdrew. You are also blaming the Irish state for the fact that tens of thousands of protestants choose to leave Ireland as economic migrants at a time when hundreds of thousands of catholics were also making the same choice.

Yes the southern protestant population declined, but you have not shown and in reality cannot show that the Irish state caused that decline. You wish to suggest that the Irish state was responsible for creating a "very hard station" for southern protestants, but this is not true.

I don't have stats for the number of protestants found in the Irish civil service, though I can state that there were several prominant businesses in Dublin that remained a closed house for many years after independance to which catholics only gained admission a generation or more later.

Imreoir2

downcow wrote: »

Absolutely. I agree again with you. That is undeniable. It was also unacceptable. Most unionists up north don’t deny that there was discrimination. It was a painful journey to come to that acceptance. Many in roi have that journey in front of them to understand why so many people felt they needed to leave roi

You are assuming something to be true while making no atempt to prove that it is and ignoring evidence that shows that it is not.

downcow

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I can only refer you to my previous post on the issue and the source that goes with it. If you want to blame the southern state for the decline of the protestant population, then you are blaming it for WW1 war deaths, the fact that the southern protestant population had an ageing and naturally declining population prior to independance, the fact that pre-independance figures for the number of protestants in the south included a cohort of English/Scottish/Welsh protestants who were residing in this region of the then UK because of the presence of the British state and its army and who chose to go home (or were orderd by their superiors to leave) when the British state withdrew. You are also blaming the Irish state for the fact that tens of thousands of protestants choose to leave Ireland as economic migrants at a time when hundreds of thousands of catholics were also making the same choice.

Yes the southern protestant population declined, but you have not shown and in reality cannot show that the Irish state caused that decline. You wish to suggest that the Irish state was responsible for creating a "very hard station" for southern protestants, but this is not true.

I don't have stats for the number of protestants found in the Irish civil service, though I can state that there were several prominant businesses in Dublin that remained a closed house for many years after independance to which catholics only gained admission a generation or more later.

Ok fair enough. I want to give honest consideration to what you are saying. It seems absurd to me but I will give it consideration and try and respond tomorrow. So as I am not wasting my time would it be fair to say that if the guards etc did not reasonably reflect the makeup of the population then there was probably underlying systemic discrimination rather than just chance at work?