Border Poll discussion

downcow

Imreoir2 wrote: »

You are assuming something to be true while making no atempt to prove that it is and ignoring evidence that shows that it is not.

Well I was surprised to see desrimination is still alive and well https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/protestant-teacher-wins-discrimination-case-in-republic-of-ireland-28571280.html

Imreoir2

downcow wrote: »

Ok fair enough. I want to give honest consideration to what you are saying. It seems absurd to me but I will give it consideration and try and respond tomorrow. So as I am not wasting my time would it be fair to say that if the guards etc did not reasonably reflect the makeup of the population then there was probably underlying systemic discrimination rather than just chance at work?

I would not go that far, you have to interrogate other factors such as socio-economic background, education, available economic opportunities. You can't find a piece of evidence and jump to a conclusion like that. Underlying systemic discrimination should have more evidence to support the fact that it was there than one data point.

Imreoir2

downcow wrote: »

Well I was surprised to see desrimination is still alive and well https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/protestant-teacher-wins-discrimination-case-in-republic-of-ireland-28571280.html

Find me another few hunderd cases and I will conceed that there is a pattern of discrimination, one data point is not enought to support a conclusion. You are really clutching at straws here. Do you think it is at all likely that it would be impossible to find one example? Would it not be strange if a perfectally normaly functioning system did not produce a small number of outliers?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Well I was surprised to see desrimination is still alive and well https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/protestant-teacher-wins-discrimination-case-in-republic-of-ireland-28571280.html

That is evidence that discrimination is not tolerated in the southern Irish education system. Her rights were upheld.

Compare and contrast her with those trying to get basic rights in the north and who is blocking them still.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Ok fair enough. I want to give honest consideration to what you are saying. It seems absurd to me but I will give it consideration and try and respond tomorrow. So as I am not wasting my time would it be fair to say that if the guards etc did not reasonably reflect the makeup of the population then there was probably underlying systemic discrimination rather than just chance at work?

When 'considering' give some thought to this from a southern Irish Protestant:

There is however a counter-argument that says Protestants in fact are the ones that have rejected wider Irish society, by forming hermetically-sealed sporting and cultural clubs and preserving denominational admissions policies in Schools and Nursing Homes. In 2002, the UCD Sociologist Professor Stephen Mennell, described Southern Protestants as a ‘Bubbled Community’. One permutation of this is a lack of political and civic engagement. For example only 0.25% of members of the Church of Ireland belong to the Gardai and members of Defence Forces, compared to the national average which is 1%. 1.44% of the Church of Ireland are involved in central or local Government, compared to a national average of 2.97%.

Indeed, in his Diocesan Synod Address in October 2013, the Archbishop of Dublin, Most Rev Dr Michael Jackson said, “Sectarianism itself is alive and well not least in the Church of Ireland community. There is a deeply dug-in antagonism to difference on the part of those who trumpet pluralism”.

https://www.journeyinselfbelief.org/item/39-rejected-adopted-or-adapted-dublin-protestants-in-2016

jm08

oscarBravo wrote: »

So you're rowing back on your offensive sweeping generalisation? That's a start, I suppose.

Its unlikely that your grandmother was born before the foundation of the Irish State which is the period that I'm referring to when the British Government was in charge of Ireland. However, your great great grandmother could have benefited during the period of English industrialisation and the Irish famine when English workers were regarded as more valuable than Irish peasants by the British ruling class.

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

Could you give me a few examples of how catholics were discriminated against in NI

downcow wrote: »

Absolutely. I agree again with you. That is undeniable. It was also unacceptable. Most unionists up north don’t deny that there was discrimination. It was a painful journey to come to that acceptance. Many in roi have that journey in front of them to understand why so many people felt they needed to leave roi

Why did you want a few examples of something you were already aware of can I ask?

downcow

Folks
This is fairly incredible stuff that I am reading, but I will do my best to respond and also provide you with the examples you need.
I must say on the outside I am in a bit of a bind. the problem is that if I answer all your questions then I run the risk of getting in trouble for taking this off thread, and if I do not answer your questions I run the risk of getting in trouble for ignoring your questions. But here goes.

The stuff I find incredible is that when the numbers in various institutions like the Guards in ROI lack unionist representation you actually blame unionists for that - of course when the same situations happens up north you blame the institution.
When a Protestant takes a case against your educate system and demonstrates discrimination, you turn that around to show how effective your equality laws are - of course when the same happens up north again you use that to demonstrate clear discrimination.
You use an example of a middle class comfortable Protestant who is doing very nicely in the system to demonstrate that everything is ok - of course you know there are endless middle class Catholics up north who have been doing very well, who will say exactly the same, and vote either Alliance or Unionist.

You asked for more comprehensive evidence that shows sectarianism at the heart of institutions in ROI. I cannot work my way through every institution but let's start with a very timely one, since the Six Nations is currently on.
IRFU provides for unionists of the North a good example of how they would be treated in an all Ireland setting. There is zero recognition of Unionist/british culture. They continue to insist on playing the Irish national anthem no matter how it offends many of the team members - Even though there was a clear commitment made at unification of the teams that this would not happen. of course many middle-class unionists have done exactly what some middle class Catholics done up north, and their Protestant counterparts done down south, ie keep their heads down, hold their noses, and say nothing.

Would you accept this as a fairly clear example of the Unionist community being discriminated against by an institution??

downcow

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Why did you want a few examples of something you were already aware of can I ask?

Quite simple. Every example i give is poo pooed (as evidenced above) so I thought if you showed me how you evidence discrimination in the north then i will be able to give you similar examples for the south. Does that seem reasonable?

Dytalus

downcow wrote: »

You asked for more comprehensive evidence that shows sectarianism at the heart of institutions in ROI. I cannot work my way through every institution but let's start with a very timely one, since the Six Nations is currently on.
IRFU provides for unionists of the North a good example of how they would be treated in an all Ireland setting. There is zero recognition of Unionist/british culture. They continue to insist on playing the Irish national anthem no matter how it offends many of the team members - Even though there was a clear commitment made at unification of the teams that this would not happen. of course many middle-class unionists have done exactly what some middle class Catholics done up north, and their Protestant counterparts done down south, ie keep their heads down, hold their noses, and say nothing.

Would you accept this as a fairly clear example of the Unionist community being discriminated against by an institution??

Amhrán na bhFiann is only ever played when the Irish Rugby team is playing in Ireland (ie, the Republic in case there's any confusion). It is also then joined by Ireland's Call. Whenever they are playing overseas, Ireland's Call is played by itself. Call was specifically commissioned so that there would be an all-island anthem to be played at international games after Unionist complaints about Amhrán na bhFiann - since for the vast majority of the IRFU's history up until then we had gone without any anthem at all, which was a marked contrast to other nations.

"Even though there was a clear commitment made at unification of the teams that this would not happen"

Source please. From the time of partition until the 1930s, there was no anthem sung at matches. The IRFU flag and Amhrán na bhFiann were only played at games within what was then the Irish Free State, and God Save the Queen was sung at matches in Belfast. Games played elsewhere went without an anthem. Including our only away game in the 1991 world cup. The flag of the IRFU does not incorporate the flag of the Republic, but rather the four provincial flags - including the red hand of Ulster which I understand unionists have taken to quite warmly.

Seems the IRFU has made plenty of strides to accomodate the NI members of the team in the history of the organisation.

"of course many middle-class unionists have done exactly what some middle class Catholics done up north, and their Protestant counterparts done down south, ie keep their heads down, hold their noses, and say nothing."

Source please. This is an awful assumption to make of both parties. It's easy to make a claim when the very evidence of that claim cannot be brought forward because people "keep their heads down".

downcow

I know you like evidence so these two pieces below should help you see where my community is coming from

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland%27s_Call#cite_note-14
"From the Partition of Ireland until the 1930s, no flag or anthem was used at IRFU internationals. After objections from clubs in the then Irish Free State, a compromise was agreed to use an IRFU flag, with "Amhrán na bhFiann" at matches in the Free State, "God Save the Queen" at those in Northern Ireland, and no anthem at away matches.[11][12][13] Ulster unionist players are not expected to sing "Amhrán na bhFiann".[14] There were no senior internationals in Northern Ireland from 1954 to 2007.[15][11] Des Fitzgerald declined to play a 1982 B international in Belfast as "God Save the Queen" would be played.[16] Before a 1954 Five Nations match in Ravenhill, Belfast, players from the Republic refused to take the field until after "God Save the Queen" had finished. Cahir Healy negotiated an compromise whereby the Royal Salute was played instead of the full anthem, and promised that future internationals would be played in Dublin. The incident was hushed up. Playing all matches at Lansdowne Road suited the IRFU in any case, since gate receipts would be larger than at Ravenhill"

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/rugby-international-sparks-anthem-row-at-ravenhill-1-1891535
"Former Ireland international rugby player and community relations activist Trevor Ringland previously urged for some compromise from the IRFU in the interests of good relations. Fermanagh MLAs: No-one should deflect from IRA’s culpability for Enniskillen horror Mr Ringland said last year: "I hope through discussion among friends that we can understand that the really significant gesture would be playing A Soldier's Song in Dublin and God Save the Queen in Belfast and the message that would send out of respecting the two countries that make up the team of Ireland." But an IRFU spokesman said last night there would be no compromise in recognition of its British players and supporters."

downcow

Dytalus wrote: »

Amhrán na bhFiann is only ever played when the Irish Rugby team is playing in Ireland (ie, the Republic in case there's any confusion). It is also then joined by Ireland's Call. Whenever they are playing overseas, Ireland's Call is played by itself. Call was specifically commissioned so that there would be an all-island anthem to be played at international games after Unionist complaints about Amhrán na bhFiann - since for the vast majority of the IRFU's history up until then we had gone without any anthem at all, which was a marked contrast to other nations.

"Even though there was a clear commitment made at unification of the teams that this would not happen"

Source please. From the time of partition until the 1930s, there was no anthem sung at matches. The IRFU flag and Amhrán na bhFiann were only played at games within what was then the Irish Free State, and God Save the Queen was sung at matches in Belfast. Games played elsewhere went without an anthem. Including our only away game in the 1991 world cup. The flag of the IRFU does not incorporate the flag of the Republic, but rather the four provincial flags - including the red hand of Ulster which I understand unionists have taken to quite warmly.

Seems the IRFU has made plenty of strides to accomodate the NI members of the team in the history of the organisation.

"of course many middle-class unionists have done exactly what some middle class Catholics done up north, and their Protestant counterparts done down south, ie keep their heads down, hold their noses, and say nothing."

Source please. This is an awful assumption to make of both parties. It's easy to make a claim when the very evidence of that claim cannot be brought forward because people "keep their heads down".

This is littered with inaccuracies
"Seems the IRFU has made plenty of strides to accomodate the NI members of the team in the history of the organisation."
Are you absolutely unable to see the inequality in this statement. If IRFU, after agreeing to play their games in both Belfast and Dublin, had decided to only play them in Belfast and play GSTQ and then when nationalist got annoyed decided they would play an extra wee tune to keep them happy - would you say IRFU had done lots to accommodate Southern nationalists?

"including the red hand of Ulster which I understand unionists have taken to quite warmly."
I am unsure if you are serious with this comment or are just trying to get a rise out of me. You must know that most Unionists are not warm to the yellow prvincial flag and that the 'red hand of ulster flag' is red and white with a crown on it and often a union flag in the corner' I guess i am just telling you what you already know very well

ancapailldorcha

downcow wrote: »

I accept your point and I’ll have to consider shifting my thinking based on it. But perception is really important. Many people don’t realise that Protestant working class housing was just as bad as catholics and jobs were hard to come by for most. Yes I accept prods got some scraps that catholics didn’t and that was wrong. But roi needs to be mature enough to realise Protestants had a very hard station in their catholic country as well Maybe next generation will get it

That's hogwash. I grew up in a Protestant household and was raised Protestant. Some light ripping at school was the height of it.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Quite simple. Every example i give is poo pooed (as evidenced above) so I thought if you showed me how you evidence discrimination in the north then i will be able to give you similar examples for the south. Does that seem reasonable?

Here is a list of discriminations against catholics in NI including housing discrimination, lower pay and employment opportunities for catholics. I don't have the reference here, but I recall reading somewhere that in 1920 Haarland and Wolff sacked all its catholic workers.

http://www.markedbyteachers.com/gcse/history/catholic-discrimination-in-northern-ireland-in-terms-of-housing-and-employment.html

I come from an area in the midlands where the town would have had a large British military presence and many of the people would be decendents of planted families. In the town when I was growing up, all the largest houses were owned and lived in by protestants. Their occupations were doctors, bank managers, accountants, solicitors and grocery, hardware store owners. In the countryside, they owned medium to large farms. I can only think of two what I would call working class protestants (brother and sister who had a small bit of land and worked for some of the local protestant farmers). At that stage, they kept very much to themselves with their own primary school and generally the children going away to boarding school for their education (like Wesley or Kilkenny College). In my secondary school, I can only recall a couple of children from Quaker families.

The townie children of these protestants all became accountants, doctors, solicitors etc who got jobs in the mainly large accountancy, stockbrokers, solicitor firms in Dublin. I know someone who is now about 70 who was the first catholic to get a job in one of the very large Dublin accountancy firms in the 70s.

The point that I'm trying to make here is that protestants were mainly well healed in the south and were not attracted to jobs in the Guards, civil service etc. Martin Manseragh, one of the most high profile protestant civil servant (because of his involvement in the peace process), joined the civil service as a university graduate, and not as a regular pen pusher.

downcow

This is also very clear demonstration of the discrimination in the Irish State. I like it in that it is fair about various factors including those you outline, but it is also very clear about the discrimination.
Which takes me back to my first point - most unionists have had the difficult self-reflection and now accept Catholics were discriminated against in NI. Southern Irish now need to go on a similar journey and face up to some of the skeletons in their cupboard

https://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/protestants_1861_1991.html

downcow

Originally Posted by downcow View Post
I accept your point and I’ll have to consider shifting my thinking based on it. But perception is really important. Many people don’t realise that Protestant working class housing was just as bad as catholics and jobs were hard to come by for most. Yes I accept prods got some scraps that catholics didn’t and that was wrong. But roi needs to be mature enough to realise Protestants had a very hard station in their catholic country as well Maybe next generation will get it

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's hogwash. I grew up in a Protestant household and was raised Protestant. Some light ripping at school was the height of it.

I will rephrase that. I was not implying 'all' protestants. but it is undeniable that 'many' protestants had a very hard station in their catholic country

Dytalus

I am unsure if you are serious with this comment or are just trying to get a rise out of me. You must know that most Unionists are not warm to the yellow prvincial flag and that the 'red hand of ulster flag' is red and white with a crown on it and often a union flag in the corner' I guess i am just telling you what you already know very well

I'll address this first. Genuinely was unaware of any issues with the provincial flag, although the red hand of Ulster is...well...the red Hand that is present on both flags. It is not the "red and white flag", it is the red hand. The red-and-white flag (the Ulster Banner is what I am assuming you're referring to) has not been officially used by Northern Ireland in a long time, though I concede Unionists may still use it for whatever reason. It would, however, be unsuitable for usage in the IRFU flag because it leaves out the three non-NI counties of Ulster.

downcow wrote: »

This is littered with inaccuracies
"Seems the IRFU has made plenty of strides to accomodate the NI members of the team in the history of the organisation."
Are you absolutely unable to see the inequality in this statement. If IRFU, after agreeing to play their games in both Belfast and Dublin, had decided to only play them in Belfast and play GSTQ and then when nationalist got annoyed decided they would play an extra wee tune to keep them happy - would you say IRFU had done lots to accommodate Southern nationalists?

Probably not. But IMO they can deal with it, since no solution is going to make all bodies happy. The Irish team needs an anthem to be played at international games, and neither GSTQ nor Amhrán are suitable so long as both parties are represented in the team. It is, however, entirely reasonable to have the national anthems of the constituent countries played in those countries. It's only fair.

However, the majority of the team and its supporters are from the Republic and it's not unreasonable for the IRFU to want to keep them happy by avoiding playing GSTQ on the (very) rare occasions a match is played in Belfast. I don't necessarily agree with that decision, but I can understand it. I can definitely agree with and understand matches only being played in Landsdowne however. Ravenhill's capacity is only a tiny bit over one third of Landsdowne's capacity. It's not even close to sufficient to host the crowds that would attend an international rugby game.

ancapailldorcha

downcow wrote: »

I will rephrase that. I was not implying 'all' protestants. but it is undeniable that 'many' protestants had a very hard station in their catholic country

Why is it "Undeniable"? The Orange Lodges even march at Rossnowlagh beach to commemorate the 12th July.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Here is a list of discriminations against catholics in NI including housing discrimination, lower pay and employment opportunities for catholics. I don't have the reference here, but I recall reading somewhere that in 1920 Haarland and Wolff sacked all its catholic workers.

http://www.markedbyteachers.com/gcse/history/catholic-discrimination-in-northern-ireland-in-terms-of-housing-and-employment.html

I come from an area in the midlands where the town would have had a large British military presence and many of the people would be decendents of planted families. In the town when I was growing up, all the largest houses were owned and lived in by protestants. Their occupations were doctors, bank managers, accountants, solicitors and grocery, hardware store owners. In the countryside, they owned medium to large farms. I can only think of two what I would call working class protestants (brother and sister who had a small bit of land and worked for some of the local protestant farmers). At that stage, they kept very much to themselves with their own primary school and generally the children going away to boarding school for their education (like Wesley or Kilkenny College). In my secondary school, I can only recall a couple of children from Quaker families.

The townie children of these protestants all became accountants, doctors, solicitors etc who got jobs in the mainly large accountancy, stockbrokers, solicitor firms in Dublin. I know someone who is now about 70 who was the first catholic to get a job in one of the very large Dublin accountancy firms in the 70s.

The point that I'm trying to make here is that protestants were mainly well healed in the south and were not attracted to jobs in the Guards, civil service etc. Martin Manseragh, one of the most high profile protestant civil servant (because of his involvement in the peace process), joined the civil service as a university graduate, and not as a regular pen pusher.

Yes, my point also - where did all the working class prods go. We know there we some middle class prods doing very nicely - i am not disputing that

downcow

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Why is it "Undeniable"? The Orange Lodges even march at Rossnowlagh beach to commemorate the 12th July.

Do you remember what happened when Protestants took a peaceful march to Dublin City a few years ago - Need i say more about the intolerance of Unionist views
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/26/northernireland.ireland

ancapailldorcha

downcow wrote: »

Do you remember what happened when Protestants took a peaceful march to Dublin City a few years ago - Need i say more about the intolerance of Unionist views
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/26/northernireland.ireland

Actually yes. That's just one example and you're conflating the Orange Order with Unionism. Many Unionists aren't in the Orange Order and it by no means represents Unionists. It is an organisation which has promoted bigotry, division and conflict since it was founded.

downcow

Folks
I was expecting some answers to my questions about IRFU. If i wasn't answering questions I be getting a fair bit of challenge for ignoring them. You could then move on to comment on the intolerance shown to the first ever march for Border victims of the IRA to take place in Dublin??

downcow

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Actually yes. That's just one example and you're conflating the Orange Order with Unionism. Many Unionists aren't in the Orange Order and it by no means represents Unionists. It is an organisation which has promoted bigotry, division and conflict since it was founded.

That march was organised by FAIR (Families Acting for Innocent Relatives)

But Ok lets move on to discrimination in sport. Would you agree its fair to say GAA is synonymous with sectarianism or do you guys need examples?

blanch152

Deleted User wrote: »

When the British state stops subsidising the small remnant of its state in Ireland, a huge, huge number of realities will hit home to the greatest supporters of that rule. The day of that enormous subvention being tolerated by people in post-Brexit Britain (England and Wales?) are without doubt nearing their end.

Combined with a growing Catholic population, an increasing number of progressive Protestants who share not only an Irish identity but a European identity and see the huge practical economic and social value of remaining in the EU.

I don't think most Irish people who discuss NI are really aware of the demographic shift, as opposed to having a vague notion about it.

See the table 'The religious affiliations in the different age bands in the 2011 census were as follows' where there are now more Catholics than Protestants at every age bracket under 39. The usual trite "not every Catholic is a nationalist" is really just head-in-the-sand stuff now when the post-Brexit reality is added:

Demographic change in Northern Ireland

2011 Census (blue=Catholic; red = Protestant):

This reminds me of the sectarian poster produced by a Sinn Fein candidate in the last Assembly elections about the numbers of Catholics versus the number of Protestants.

There is nothing more sectarian than reducing the issue of what the North should like like down to a headcount based on religious belief.

Chips Lovell

It's important not to conflate protestantism with unionism. The vast majority of southern protestants aren't unionists, let alone Orangemen.

In fact, conflations of protestantism with unionism is one of the chief forms of stick that southern protestants do get when they experience it, i.e. people thinking that if you're a protestant you're not really Irish or that you're a unionist.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Yes, my point also - where did all the working class prods go. We know there we some middle class prods doing very nicely - i am not disputing that

There was little or no industry in the south, so the biggest employment opportunity was the British Army. Many stayed with the British Army (if they were not killed in the two world wars). The rest probably emigrated to England and US along with their fellow catholic countrymen to find work.

The economist David McWilliams (with a Scottish, protestant grandfather who came to Dublin as a stone cutter to repair the buildings damaged in 1916, war of independence in Dublin). His father married a catholic and David was brought up as a catholic. So I'd say that is what happened to a lot of working class protestants. That also worked the other way. I had a protestant work colleague who married a catholic about 30 years ago. They brought their kids up as protestants because there was better schooling opportunities (smaller classes, better funding etc) for protestant children.

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

If it is as you claim it is, why did the British Government accept its EU pension liability without a protest?

I did address that earlier, in saying that the one (UK) looking for something (Brexit) has to pay a price. Ditto when the one (Ireland) looking for something (Unity) should also pay a price.

However, that is not the end of the story. The Commission and the other EU institutions operate informally on a quota basis, with each member State getting a share of the staff based on their size. If you pull out, your people are no longer needed, and you take your share, or their cost, with you.

Imreoir2

downcow wrote: »

The stuff I find incredible is that when the numbers in various institutions like the Guards in ROI lack unionist representation you actually blame unionists for that - of course when the same situations happens up north you blame the institution.

You claim that An Garda Síochána lacks unionist representation. Firstly, you have not provided any evidence for this as far as I can see, and secondly why would An Garda Síochána have unionist representation. Do you perhaps mean protestant representation? Please tell me you realise that there is very little unionism in the south and that the vast majority of southern Irish protestants do not see themselves as British and do not have any desire to see Ireland united with the UK.

Let's clear up a misconception that you seem to have here and now, protestants in the Republic are not unionists who are merely keeping their heads down, they are in the vast majority of cases proud and patrotic Irish men and women who participate fully in the life of the nation both publicly and privatly.

When a Protestant takes a case against your educate system and demonstrates discrimination, you turn that around to show how effective your equality laws are - of course when the same happens up north again you use that to demonstrate clear discrimination.

Again, if there was not one single example to be found it would be rather surreal. What the case demonstrates is that the school in question was found to be in breach of the established rules and practices, showing that the established rules and practices are non-discriminatory. It also shows that a protestant finding themselves in that situation can be confident that the state will vindicate their right to equal treatment.

Unlike the situation that had prevailed in NI, there is no systematic discrimination. The rules themselves have not been designed and implemented specifically with the aim of furthering discrimination as was the case for so long in the north.

You asked for more comprehensive evidence that shows sectarianism at the heart of institutions in ROI. I cannot work my way through every institution but let's start with a very timely one, since the Six Nations is currently on. IRFU provides for unionists of the North a good example of how they would be treated in an all Ireland setting. There is zero recognition of Unionist/british culture. They continue to insist on playing the Irish national anthem no matter how it offends many of the team members - Even though there was a clear commitment made at unification of the teams that this would not happen. of course many middle-class unionists have done exactly what some middle class Catholics done up north, and their Protestant counterparts done down south, ie keep their heads down, hold their noses, and say nothing.

Would you accept this as a fairly clear example of the Unionist community being discriminated against by an institution??

There is just so much to unpack here, the IRFU is not an institution of the Republic of Ireland, it is a private sporing body that operates both inside and outside the territory of the Republic. If you want to prove that the institutions of the Republic are sectarian, you should probably deal with an actual institution of the republic in the first palce.

Additionally, there is no unionist community to speak of in the republic for the IRFU to discriminate against and on the specific issue of anthems, there is a reason that Irealnd is the only team that has two.

Imreoir2

downcow wrote: »

I will rephrase that. I was not implying 'all' protestants. but it is undeniable that 'many' protestants had a very hard station in their catholic country

If it is undeniable, then surely it is possible to point to actual evidence? All you have done is show one isolated incident. You really need to show a pattern of widespread discrimination for you statement to have any credibility.

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

This reminds me of the sectarian poster produced by a Sinn Fein candidate in the last Assembly elections about the numbers of Catholics versus the number of Protestants.

There is nothing more sectarian than reducing the issue of what the North should like like down to a headcount based on religious belief.

Given than NI was established with the same sectarian, settler-colonial "headcount", it would be apt. At any rate, until they start asking 'Are you an Irish nationalist or UK unionist?' on the Census form, the religion question is the nearest reliable indicator of whether somebody wants Irish reunification or British rule in the North. Far from perfect, and undoubtedly getting less perfect as the south changes and in the post-Brexit era. However, it is still the best indicator of a bad lot. Although it is nice that now that Protestants are, for the first time, a minority (48%) according to the 2011 NI Census, more unionists are shying away from defining the conflict in these chimerical religious terms. Changing that religious definition is long overdue. At its heart the conflict in this small remainder of England's Irish colony currently dressed up as "Northern Ireland" remains a settler-colonial conflict with, despite the changing labels and representations, the same dynamics of power and conflict reproducing themselves since 1609.