Border Poll discussion

jm08

downcow wrote: »

So in this new Ireland would there be no space for a victims of the IRA justice parade in the capital city? - A serious question

It should never have been allowed in the first place due to O'Connell Street being dug up, so plenty of missiles for the local skangers to have a right go at the Gardai! The parade was incidental to this opportunity.

Chips Lovell

Flags, anthems, parades, football teams...

I think the thread illustrates that maybe we're not ready for a border poll yet.

James Brown

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Flags, anthems, parades, football teams...

I think the thread illustrates that maybe we're not ready for a border poll yet.

Or it shows the argument against is based on Rugby team names, flags and parades.

jm08

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Flags, anthems, parades, football teams...

I think the thread illustrates that maybe we're not ready for a border poll yet.

Why not. With or without a border poll these issues around identity have to be tackled.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It was a bunch of 'Love Ulster' unionists looking for a reaction and they got it. The parades commission put and end to that in the north and that's where it should be contained.

Thankfully my capital city is fairly open to all sorts of parades ie scouts, bands, girl guides, interment, orange etc etc. So maybe you are actually accepting we are a more inclusive tolerant society in the North

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

Do you remember what happened when Protestants took a peaceful march to Dublin City a few years ago - Need i say more about the intolerance of Unionist views
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/26/northernireland.ireland

It was designed to stir up trouble and it worked. Had it have been a true representation of Ulster with people of all stripes there would have been no issue IMO. There was an agenda and loving Ulster wasn't it.
I always thought the name odd. Of course we love one of our own provinces.

downcow

Matt Barrett wrote: »

That's not partition. If England or the remainder of Britian annexed up to Glasgow, yes, I would be against it.

explain why you would not see it as partition of the island if Scotland were to go independant?

Junkyard Tom

jm08 wrote: »

Looking at it from Ulster Rugby's point of view, the last thing they would want to do is alienate the NI's nationalist population

And it's Ulster Rugby not NI rugby.

Dytalus

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Flags, anthems, parades, football teams...

I think the thread illustrates that maybe we're not ready for a border poll yet.

I don't think we'll ever be 'ready' as such until the process actually begins. Neither state is going to expend the resources figuring out how to make it work and where to make compromises until the public starts asking for it. Why should they? Discussion with regards to German Reunification didn't start until the wall fell and it became inevitable. I'd imagine (admittedly, this is pure speculation) that a call for a border poll would be the NI/ROI equivalent of the fall of the Iron Curtain.

Once enough people in NI start making noise asking for a border poll, then I imagine it'll start moving in some actual capacity towards being 'ready'. Or at the very least towards a state of "not quite ready but as ready as we'll ever be prior to a vote". Neither the UK nor ROI can ignore it once asked, they have to address it one way or the other - whether that's 2, 5, 10, 20 years from now. Until then, why waste time when there's a hundred other things to be doing.

downcow wrote: »

explain why you would not see it as partition of the island if Scotland were to go independant?

Because Scotland (good lord it took me four attempts to type that correctly) and England started as two separate nations that happened to share the same landmass before the Kingdom of Scotland joined the union. It's not partition so much as a return to how things were - Independence. Contrast that with Ireland, which was conquered by the British before we fought for independence. We did not gain all of our homeland back, a chunk of it remained under British control... ie was partitioned off.

The two things are pretty substantially different from both a historic and modern perspective, as well as a socio-political one. It's disingenuous at best to claim Scotland regaining independence from England is the same as what happened on the island of Ireland.

ancapailldorcha

downcow wrote: »

Thankfully my capital city is fairly open to all sorts of parades ie scouts, bands, girl guides, interment, orange etc etc. So maybe you are actually accepting we are a more inclusive tolerant society in the North

Your claim here is undermined by the lack of same-sex marriage and right to choose for women.

You say "all sorts of parades". Does this include gay pride, pro-United Ireland and marches for abortion rights parades?

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Looking at it from Ulster Rugby's point of view, the last thing they would want to do is alienate the NI's nationalist population (which has happened in the football). And fairplay to UR, they have been very successful in developing cross community support.

Where is you evidence? I contend that more Catholics attend NI matches than Ulster Rugby matches

Chips Lovell

Dytalus wrote: »

I don't think we'll ever be 'ready' as such until the process actually begins. Neither state is going to expend the resources figuring out how to make it work and where to make compromises until the public starts asking for it.

I guess I'm talking less about the two states and more about the fact that there's still sizable contingents in either camp overly concerned with petty signifiers.

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

Thankfully my capital city is fairly open to all sorts of parades ie scouts, bands, girl guides, interment, orange etc etc. So maybe you are actually accepting we are a more inclusive tolerant society in the North

But not same sex marriage or abortion, and different Sunday trading hours.

Cherry pickers of their equal Britishness it would seem.

downcow

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Your claim here is undermined by the lack of same-sex marriage and right to choose for women.

You say "all sorts of parades". Does this include gay pride, pro-United Ireland and marches for abortion rights parades?

I think the same sex one will be rightly sorted as soon as Stormont is back up. The abortion one is more complicated i believe.
And yes of course Gay pride is now second only to the twelfth in size and only a few Free P nutters in opposition.
Of course many Pro republican marches take place and almost always without incident

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Thankfully my capital city is fairly open to all sorts of parades ie scouts, bands, girl guides, interment, orange etc etc. So maybe you are actually accepting we are a more inclusive tolerant society in the North

You and I both know that Orange/Unionist parading was an expression of triumphalism that enjoyed upping the noise level when they marched through places they weren't wanted.

I remember my own parents telling us as kids to not dare look out the window on the 11th night for fear of having the windows smashed in by the local Loyalouts and we lived in a quiet town.

Now most Orange/Unionist parading is not allowed to troll the nationalist population and people in the south would do well to learn lessons from what happened in the north.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Why do the NI football team insist on GSTQ as its anthem even though Scotland and Wales don't? Why isn't there an official flag of NI that is acceptable to both unionist and nationalist population?

I am an ardent NI fan and I have worked fairly hard to get GSTQ replaced. I have even wrote to UEFA and reported my own team for sectarianism for playing it to try and force their hand. And it is for the exact same reasons I would like to see IRFU drop the Irish anthem.
The ourweecountry forum, the main NI fans forum had a poll on the anthem and something like 80% voted to replace GSTQ. Unfortunately the grey suits won't shift on it.
I try to be consistent

Dytalus

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

I guess I'm talking less about the two states and more about the fact that there's still sizable contingents in either camp overly concerned with petty signifiers.

Fair point. Though to be fair, a large amount of those 'petty signifiers' are symptoms of the problem - the identity of the population in NI. Things like the anthem of the rugby team (which I agree bringing up the IRFU was a tad ridiculous, but it's fun to imagine about these things) don't matter in the grand scheme of things r.e.: re-unification. But your average joe rarely cares about the grand scheme - they care about how it will effect them and theirs personally.

I wouldn't be surprised if the small stuff like this becomes some of the most shouted over pre or post a border poll. Not exactly sticking points in negotiation, but something used to motivate either side of the debate into voting/marching/general attention grabbing.

Junkyard Tom

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

maybe we're not ready for a border poll yet.

The problem for Unionists is that their politicians have slammed all the doors shut and introduced Brexit to the equation. For Nationalists, and others, a United Ireland has become the 'master key' that unlocks reproductive rights, marriage equality, language rights and EU citizenship.

Really, Unionist history in the north is a 'how not to' manual on securing their precious union.

downcow

Dytalus wrote: »

Because Scotland (good lord it took me four attempts to type that correctly) and England started as two separate nations that happened to share the same landmass before the Kingdom of Scotland joined the union. It's not partition so much as a return to how things were - Independence. Contrast that with Ireland, which was conquered by the British before we fought for independence. We did not gain all of our homeland back, a chunk of it remained under British control... ie was partitioned off.

The two things are pretty substantially different from both a historic and modern perspective, as well as a socio-political one. It's disingenuous at best to claim Scotland regaining independence from England is the same as what happened on the island of Ireland.

I didn't say it was the same, I merely said it was partition of an Island.
My history is not good so I expect they will be queing up to correct me, but it is my understanding that Ireland was only ever united under the British Crown. So if you go back to the way things were then I think you'll be increasing NI to about 9 counties and strenghtening its links to scotland

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

a few Free P nutters

Unfortunately Free Presbyterians are the majority sect in the DUP despite making up only 0.6% of the population of the north.

Dytalus

downcow wrote: »

I am an ardent NI fan and I have worked fairly hard to get GSTQ replaced. I have even wrote to UEFA and reported my own team for sectarianism for playing it to try and force their hand. And it is for the exact same reasons I would like to see IRFU drop the Irish anthem.
The ourweecountry forum, the main NI fans forum had a poll on the anthem and something like 80% voted to replace GSTQ. Unfortunately the grey suits won't shift on it.
I try to be consistent

Kudos for doing so...but it's not quite similar. If NI had an anthem I'd be all for it being played at IRFU games up North. But GSTQ is England's national anthem so I don't see as much as a call for it in IRFU matters. That unionists consider it theirs as well is...unfortunate, but largely irrelevant. In rugby matters, it is used by England.

By contrast, the NI football team is it's own thing. It's not an all-ireland concern. If the NI football 'grey suits' consider GSTQ the anthem for football then...well that's about it really. There's no need to accomodate the Republic in the matter. I do wonder sometimes why NI is alone among the UK nations in not having its own anthem for sports, though I can think of a half-dozen reasons why.

I'm also confused as to how it's sectarian to play it at NI games as such, but then that might tie into the link between Catholic/Republican and Protestant/Unionist in NI so I'll defer to more experienced minds on that matter.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Unfortunately Free Presbyterians are the majority sect in the DUP despite making up only 0.6% of the population of the north.

Evidence please? This is another myth

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Evidence please? This is another myth

Professor Jonathan Tonge ... findings reveal that Free Presbyterianism, the tiny denomination founded by Ian Paisley, still remains the largest faith among both DUP members and elected representatives. Free Presbyterians are more than 50 times more common in the DUP than they are in the population. Orangemen are 21 times more common in the party.

belfasttelegraph.co.uk

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Professor Jonathan Tonge ... findings reveal that Free Presbyterianism, the tiny denomination founded by Ian Paisley, still remains the largest faith among both DUP members and elected representatives. Free Presbyterians are more than 50 times more common in the DUP than they are in the population. Orangemen are 21 times more common in the party.

belfasttelegraph.co.uk

Interesting but at odds with what i feel on the ground. He gives no evidence. The only one he names is the only one i thought of ie Paisley Jnr. I am not saying he is wrong but I know lots of DUP and i don't know a single one that attends a free presbyterian church.
He might have at least told us the denomination of each MP

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Where is you evidence? I contend that more Catholics attend NI matches than Ulster Rugby matches

I'd be interested to know how you come to that conclusion!

downcow

Folks
unfortunately the reaction to posts over the last number of pages, demonstrates to me as a unionist that there is no way ROI are even at the starting blocks of creating a society that would respect my identity and culture. Indeed I have been surprised at the level of denial about the change that is required.
A UI in these conditions would potentially escalate divisions and bring large numbers unto the streets. In short it would be madness to consider a border poll until the people of ROI consider what would be involved in build a new equal ireland.
Thats depressing I know

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

explain why you would not see it as partition of the island if Scotland were to go independant?

Scotland is a country. Are you attempting some form of rabbit hole here? I'm not sure what you're getting at. If Scotland gets independence that's a whole complete country removed from the UK. Not a portion of a province within Scotland no longer under British rule. Do you truly not see the differences here?

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Interesting but at odds with what i feel on the ground. He gives no evidence.

What am I supposed to do here? I take the Professor on his word, I presume he has a reputation he values so wouldn't be lying in the national press.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I am an ardent NI fan and I have worked fairly hard to get GSTQ replaced. I have even wrote to UEFA and reported my own team for sectarianism for playing it to try and force their hand. And it is for the exact same reasons I would like to see IRFU drop the Irish anthem.
The ourweecountry forum, the main NI fans forum had a poll on the anthem and something like 80% voted to replace GSTQ. Unfortunately the grey suits won't shift on it.
I try to be consistent

I'm pretty sure that if the Irish anthem or flag made close to half the citizens of the ROI uncomfortable, the grey suits/politicians would do something about it.

The population of the ROI regard AnaB as its anthem and the tricolour as their flag, why would you want to take that away from them. What I would like to see is a flag and anthem that is at least acceptable to all the people of NI, not just half of them.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that if the Irish anthem or flag made close to half the citizens of the ROI uncomfortable, the grey suits/politicians would do something about it.

The population of the ROI regard AnaB as its anthem and the tricolour as their flag, why would you want to take that away from them. What I would like to see is a flag and anthem that is at least acceptable to all the people of NI, not just half of them.

But i think you want the team to represent the whole island ie two jurisdictions and maintain a flag and anthem that is an anathema to a significan section of people on this island.
If we follow you logi the the Brit & Irish Lions should just be called the English Lions and use GSTQ and the Union flag - cause why would you want to take that off the people of England???