Border Poll discussion

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

What am I supposed to do here? I take the Professor on his word, I presume he has a reputation he values so wouldn't be lying in the national press.

If i was you, yes I would take his word for it until I knew any different. I just feel it in my bones that he is not correct

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

A UI in these conditions would potentially escalate divisions and bring large numbers unto the streets.

I've said before here on Boards.ie that trouble should be an expected consequence of a pro-UI vote. There is no 'perfect solution'.

Indeed I have been surprised at the level of denial about the change that is required.

Unionists need to reconsider the notion that they'll be dictating terms and conditions to anyone.

endainoz

Well it depends on how much people would be willing to give up, aside from all the social/political stuff I'd have no idea about. Would I be willing to change our flag? Sure, unionists don't really accept the orange for them anyway. Would I change the anthem? Again not much of an issue with that, though I'd prefer if it remains as gaeilge. Would I take a slightl pay cut a week to pay towards it? Probably, national pride would shine through for me anyway.

uptherebels

downcow wrote: »

Folks
unfortunately the reaction to posts over the last number of pages, demonstrates to me as a unionist that there is no way ROI are even at the starting blocks of creating a society that would respect my identity and culture. Indeed I have been surprised at the level of denial about the change that is required.
A UI in these conditions would potentially escalate divisions and bring large numbers unto the streets. In short it would be madness to consider a border poll until the people of ROI consider what would be involved in build a new equal ireland.
Thats depressing I know

How would you like your identity and culture respected?
Would you consider that by labelling yourself a unionist over anything else is in itself a problem and that the change required for a united society would require changes to that very identity and culture you want respected.

downcow

uptherebels wrote: »

How would you like your identity and culture respected?
Would you consider that by labelling yourself a unionist over anything else is in itself a problem and that the change required for a united society would require changes to that very identity and culture you want respected.

I have said it before on here that i am Northern Irish long before i am British. So i am a realist. Though it would be quite legitimate for a section of people here to work towards convincing the rest of the people on the island that we would be better off in a big UK - but i wouldn't expect the remaining UK to want ireland.

You ask a genuine question. What would i expect as respect form my culture/identity?
here are a few initial thoughts of mine

Essentials
Our ulster scots culture would be given parity with the irish culture
Irish language would not be forced upon us in areas we don't want it
new flag
new anthem
parading rights
equality legislation


Desirable
Devolved government
membership of Commonwealth (or maybe even a compromise would be a way to keep ni in the commonwealth - special status i think the remainers would call it)
an arrangement allowing a separate football team

jm08

downcow wrote: »

But i think you want the team to represent the whole island ie two jurisdictions and maintain a flag and anthem that is an anathema to a significan section of people on this island.
If we follow you logi the the Brit & Irish Lions should just be called the English Lions and use GSTQ and the Union flag - cause why would you want to take that off the people of England???

Why is it anathema to a significant section of people in Northern Ireland? What has the flag/anthem/people of the ROI done that is so offensive to a section of people in NI? Win independence? Be predominantly catholic?

As for B&I Lions (the 'I' part is fairly recent) - GSTQ is the British anthem, not just the English one. England use the St. George flag rather than the Union Flag except at Olympic games where GB uses both GSTQ & the Union Flag. If you wanted to go down the road of proper representation on the B& I Lions, you could probably fly both Union flag and Irish Tricolour and play GSTQ and AnaB - that should have everyone covered (though I suspect the Scots and Welsh wouldn't be up for that)!

I remember on the 1998 tour to South Africa, the stadium were covered with Union flags. Thats now all changed - you see a lot more individual nations flags (England, Scotland & Wales) at the games.

murphaph

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So the UK would just keep the pension contributions made by these work forces?
Seems unlikely to me that there wouldn't be some if not a lot of onus on them to contribute to what would be a finite commitment.
It would be down to how anxious the UK would be to see a UI and the end of their costly commitment to or strategic interest in northern Ireland.

Pensions in the public sector the world over are paid out of current taxation. Those pension contributions went on paying the pensions of already retired public servants.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

If i was you, yes I would take his word for it until I knew any different. I just feel it in my bones that he is not correct

Oxford University Press (the publisher of the book) are fairly reputable.

The Democratic Unionist Party: From Protest To Power will be published by Oxford University Press

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I have said it before on here that i am Northern Irish long before i am British. So i am a realist. Though it would be quite legitimate for a section of people here to work towards convincing the rest of the people on the island that we would be better off in a big UK - but i wouldn't expect the remaining UK to want ireland.

You ask a genuine question. What would i expect as respect form my culture/identity?
here are a few initial thoughts of mine

Essentials
Our ulster scots culture would be given parity with the irish culture
Irish language would not be forced upon us in areas we don't want it
new flag
new anthem
parading rights
equality legislation


Desirable
Devolved government
membership of Commonwealth (or maybe even a compromise would be a way to keep ni in the commonwealth - special status i think the remainers would call it)
an arrangement allowing a separate football team

Most of that wouldn't really be an issue. One thing I would suggest though is that there is one football team because it could be used to unite people - having something that everyone can get behind (like the rugby team).

If that required wearing NI kit or being based in Belfast would be worth it.

Dytalus

downcow wrote: »

You ask a genuine question. What would i expect as respect form my culture/identity?
here are a few initial thoughts of mine

Essentials
Our ulster scots culture would be given parity with the irish culture I don't think parity is fair here - there are a lot more poeple in what would be a united Ireland that identify as Irish rather than Ulster Scots. It wouldn't be right to give them total parity, doing so would give an unequal weighting to the Ulster population, but I agree that your heritage and culture should be respected and not ignored (or worse, threatened with erasure).
Irish language would not be forced upon us in areas we don't want it We already have reasons for exemptions even among the Republic (I had an exemption for example, despite being irish), it's not unreasonable to provide an opportunity if necessary. That said, if it does become part of the curriculum in the same way other languages are I don't see why it should be excluded from certain areas/schools any more than any other subject should be.
new flag Fully in favour. Re-unification would be, imo, the birth of a new nation. Not the Republic 'taking over' NI. A new flag for a new start would be nice.
new anthemI like Amhrán na bhFiann, but from the same perspective of 'new start, new flag' I'd be okay with this. Ideally still as Gaeilge (the French anthem is French, and Italian is in Italian after all), but perhaps with an english stanza among it to accomodate the new citizens of Ireland
parading rights No reason not to, unless there's risk of (or belief that it intends to) incite anger/violence. But we have those standards for parades already anyway.
equality legislation I don't quite get what you mean here. could you clarify?


Desirable
Devolved government At least at first I think this is the only way forward. It's inefficient and unnecessary for a landmass and population this small, but any merger of Stormont and the Dáil probably shouldn't happen overnight.
membership of Commonwealth (or maybe even a compromise would be a way to keep ni in the commonwealth - special status i think the remainers would call it) This is probably the only thing I'm firmly against. I do not like the idea of joining an organisation that has the Queen of England as its head - especially given our history. Sorry downcow.
an arrangement allowing a separate football team Unnecessary and ultimately dilutes the potential for a United Ireland to have a good football team (for a change) by dividing talent and effort across two separate teams. But certainly an NI clubs level team would be fine I'd imagine, if not at an international level. Ultimately...not that big a deal.
If the FAI (or whatever takes over in a UI) could afford it I see no reason not to if enough fans of the sport wanted it that way.

Response in the quote in red.

I'll be honest, that's a pretty reasonable list. I like that you've split it into essential vs desirable rather than being all "I want ALL things" as people tend to do in these kind of debates.

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

I have said it before on here that i am Northern Irish long before i am British. So i am a realist. Though it would be quite legitimate for a section of people here to work towards convincing the rest of the people on the island that we would be better off in a big UK - but i wouldn't expect the remaining UK to want ireland.

You ask a genuine question. What would i expect as respect form my culture/identity?
here are a few initial thoughts of mine

Essentials
Our ulster scots culture would be given parity with the irish culture
Irish language would not be forced upon us in areas we don't want it
new flag
new anthem
parading rights
equality legislation


Desirable
Devolved government
membership of Commonwealth (or maybe even a compromise would be a way to keep ni in the commonwealth - special status i think the remainers would call it)
an arrangement allowing a separate football team

The Ulster Scots culture will get full respect but being in a small minority it makes no sense to put it on parity with Irish culture. We have many localised traditions within the country that are respected.
Considering English has a prominent place in Irish society, so Irish language need not be used.
New flag, new anthem? Sure. Youse are taking your time removing the Union Jack mind, and God Save the Queen, you know, for fairness.
Parades as long as they don't denigrate anyone, sure.
I don't see what legislation needs put in place, all citizens are equal under the law. Are you thinking special treatment?

The 'desirable' portion wouldn't work in a country. You're basically talking about separation. Would this go for DUP strongholds or all the areas currently under British jurisdiction? Would the people get a say?

FrancieBrady

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Flags, anthems, parades, football teams...

I think the thread illustrates that maybe we're not ready for a border poll yet.

I don't think that is at all fair.
Seems to me Downcow wishes to do what a writer in a link I posted earlier pointed out. He wants the ability to 'hermetically seal' northern Ireland unionism from any 'Irish' influence in the way the writer said, some southern Protestants did after independence. To remove themselves from any recognition of the new state, so to speak.
I don't think he speaks for moderate unionists at all tbh, I know an awful lot of them along the border here and in Belfast. He seems to be more along the lines of a DUP mindset. 'We will not be seen as Irish in any way, so everything must change to reflect us'.
Still amazed he doesn't see the irony of his criticism of the IRFU, which was fairly classically one of those 'hermetically sealed' Protestant organisations at one time, and has opened up to now be a fully secular sporting organisation.

downcow

Thanks for your completely reasonable responses folks. I don't agree with them all but they are understandable.
....and before anyone gets carried away and thinks I want a UI. Not at all, but if the numbers dictate it then I will remain a democrat and would work to make it as pleasant a place as possible for everyone - thats providing i don't move over gto the mainland which would be a serious consideration in a UI scenario

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't think that is at all fair.
Seems to me Downcow wishes to do what a writer in a link I posted earlier pointed out. He wants the ability to 'hermetically seal' northern Ireland unionism from any 'Irish' influence in the way the writer said, some southern Protestants did after independence. To remove themselves from any recognition of the new state, so to speak.
I don't think he speaks for moderate unionists at all tbh, I know an awful lot of them along the border here and in Belfast. He seems to be more along the lines of a DUP mindset. 'We will not be seen as Irish in any way, so everything must change to reflect us'.
Still amazed he doesn't see the irony of his criticism of the IRFU, which was fairly classically one of those 'hermetically sealed' Protestant organisations at one time, and has opened up to now be a fully secular sporting organisation.

Francie
Firstly you are going to have to accept that the DUP are a broader church that you think they are Currently there are 11 unionist MPs and 10 of them are DUP (i reckon 11 next time). and they are not my natural home, UUP would be my natural home.

Is there anything i have said about the IRFU that is not true? some on here have held them up as an example of something all can get behind. Many protestants do put up with the trappings and support them but they are mainly grammar school rugger boys - you won't find too many working class prods up here who take any notice of or feel any affiliation to the Irish Rugby team.

What about you having a go Francie at telling me how you will make this new ireland attractive to me??

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

Thanks for your completely reasonable responses folks. I don't agree with them all but they are understandable.
....and before anyone gets carried away and thinks I want a UI. Not at all, but if the numbers dictate it then I will remain a democrat and would work to make it as pleasant a place as possible for everyone - thats providing i don't move over gto the mainland which would be a serious consideration in a UI scenario

I took you for an Aran sweatered, scruffy bearded Shinner. See you at the next Wolfe Tones gig
These 'discussion' often get personal fast. Fair play for chatting.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

What about you having a go Francie at telling me how you will make this new ireland attractive to me??

It will be a state where everyone is equal and where there is no need to overweight symbols or anthems in the direction of any one set of beliefs.

endainoz

downcow wrote:

Essentials Our ulster scots culture would be given parity with the irish culture Irish language would not be forced upon us in areas we don't want it new flag new anthem parading rights equality legislation

I do think there's some genuine fear of unionists losing their culture due to reunification, can't see it happening to be fair. Nationalists never lost theirs.

Parading rights equality? Don't see that being an issue either. Though intentionally marching through a nationalist area to provoke them, I would see an issue. You can use the "historical route" argument all you want, but it won't fly with me. It also may come as a suprise but marching of any kind happens quite rarely outside of the six counties.

downcow wrote:

Desirable Devolved government membership of Commonwealth (or maybe even a compromise would be a way to keep ni in the commonwealth - special status i think the remainers would call it) an arrangement allowing a separate football team

If there is a new flag and anthem, why would there be a need for a separate football team? Rugby team play under the same anthem, (whether your a Phil Coulter fan or not)

I also don't see what benefit staying in the Commonwealth would achieve? If it's something about athletes representing Britain in the Olympics or whatever let them represent who they want. It seems you keep encouraging some sort of separation all the time, moving forward people from both sides need more common ground to relate to, such as an all Ireland rugby team.

I am not from the North and I don't pretend to be an expert on this either, but unionists will get left behind if they don't compromise and move on with the times.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It will be a state where everyone is equal and where there is no need to overweight symbols or anthems in the direction of any one set of beliefs.

Now what does that mean?
No protection for minority cultures etc?

downcow

endainoz wrote: »

I do think there's some genuine fear of unionists losing their culture due to reunification, can't see it happening to be fair. Nationalists never lost theirs.

Parading rights equality? Don't see that being an issue either. Though intentionally marching through a nationalist area to provoke them, I would see an issue. You can use the "historical route" argument all you want, but it won't fly with me. It also may come as a suprise but marching of any kind happens quite rarely outside of the six counties.

I think you may have taken the sf propganda hook line and sinker.

The marching band scene is as important to the unionist community as GAA is to the nationalist community. I have no idea how many GAA clubs there are in NI but there are over 700 unionist marching bands. These are predominately under 25s and are at the heart of their communities. There are 3000+ parades of which less than 1% present any difficulties whatsoever.
Of those 1% most are a problem because sf have agitated to make them a problem. I can't think of one of them that is not trying to use the main arterial route into the city/town centre.
So don't take the sf line without interrogating it

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Now what does that mean?
No protection for minority cultures etc?

Which bit of 'everyone is equal' did you fail to understand?

endainoz

downcow wrote:

I think you may have taken the sf propganda hook line and sinker.

downcow wrote:

The marching band scene is as important to the unionist community as GAA is to the nationalist community. I have no idea how many GAA clubs there are in NI but there are over 700 unionist marching bands. These are predominately under 25s and are at the heart of their communities. There are 3000+ parades of which less than 1% present any difficulties whatsoever. Of those 1% most are a problem because sf have agitated to make them a problem. I can't think of one of them that is not trying to use the main arterial route into the city/town centre. So don't take the sf line without interrogating it

So Drumcree never happened? Marches are fine when they go to places where they are welcome.

I'd be ok with the bonfires too, if it wasn't so necessary to burn the tricolour and effigys of Irish people.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I think you may have taken the sf propganda hook line and sinker.

The marching band scene is as important to the unionist community as GAA is to the nationalist community. I have no idea how many GAA clubs there are in NI but there are over 700 unionist marching bands. These are predominately under 25s and are at the heart of their communities. There are 3000+ parades of which less than 1% present any difficulties whatsoever.
Of those 1% most are a problem because sf have agitated to make them a problem. I can't think of one of them that is not trying to use the main arterial route into the city/town centre.
So don't take the sf line without interrogating it

There are already guarantees for freedom of assembly (provided there is not a risk to public order) in the Constitution of Ireland.

Thats how Willie Frazer got the opportunity to march up O'Connell Street.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

There are already guarantees for freedom of assembly (provided there is not a risk to public order) in the Constitution of Ireland.

Thats how Willie Frazer got the opportunity to march up O'Connell Street.

But it seems the bully boys were allowed to win on O'connel street

downcow

endainoz wrote: »

So Drumcree never happened? Marches are fine when they go to places where they are welcome.

I'd be ok with the bonfires too, if it wasn't so necessary to burn the tricolour and effigys of Irish people.

It is a little more complex than this Adams admitted that SF tried to agitate around marching.
Are you suggesting that the majority should decide ie if the majority don't like gay pride then they should not get parading? we need a more mature society than that

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

But it seems the bully boys were allowed to win on O'connel street

They had a right to march TBF
That was a riot. They weren't given a permit.
Also it went on to include looting which had nothing to do with the parade by that point.

endainoz

downcow wrote:

It is a little more complex than this Adams admitted that SF tried to agitate around marching. Are you suggesting that the majority should decide ie if the majority don't like gay pride then they should not get parading? we need a more mature society than that

If it's a little more complex please explain. Adams admitted what now?

Havockk

downcow wrote: »

But it seems the bully boys were allowed to win on O'connel street

Time to stop pretending Willie Frazer had altruistic motives. He specialises in causing division and has no interest in healing wounds.

Thread is an joke to be honest. How long are we going to allow clowns to derail any thread they wish. This is supposed to be the politics forum.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Which bit of 'everyone is equal' did you fail to understand?

Its a bit simplistic.
Do you mean eg that if one group can parade down a street then every group can?
are you saying that irish language is equal to polish?
Do you mean the rights of the unborn baby are equal to the rights of the mother (or father)
I honestly have no idea what that statement means. In fact I would contend that it really means nothing

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

It is a little more complex than this Adams admitted that SF tried to agitate around marching.
Are you suggesting that the majority should decide ie if the majority don't like gay pride then they should not get parading? we need a more mature society than that

The Gay pride parade isn't about anything put gay pride. Commemorating battles where you killed people from a particular culture, while marching near or through areas represented by that culture, isn't quite the same.

endainoz

Oh and are you suggesting Neo Nazis should parade in Jewish areas because they have a right to?