Border Poll discussion

facehugger99

Avatar MIA wrote: »

So, your worst fear has come through a UI is agreed.

Then the above bombs to off, what then?

Surely a question for the proponents of a UI to answer - no?

I'm quite happy with the current arrangement.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why is everything designed so we don't offend/discommode unionism?

I asked downcow and was ignored, what is unionism prepared to compromise/accomodate if a UI would come to pass by majority.
They accepted all this in the GFA

A UI is preferable but there are many who are against this or are suspicious of what might happen,so perhaps a gradual transition maybe more acceptable.

jm08

facehugger99 wrote: »

Surely a question for the proponents of a UI to answer - no?

I'm quite happy with the current arrangement.

A lot of people were happy with the current arrangement. The problem is this is going to change (for the worse) because of Brexit.


On the law and order issue - clever of Irish Government to appoint Drew Harris as Garda Commissioner with his in depth knowledge of NI policing.

Avatar MIA

facehugger99 wrote: »

Surely a question for the proponents of a UI to answer - no?

I'm quite happy with the current arrangement.

It was YOUR scenario :pac:

Anyway, nothing would be achieved by it so it wouldn't happen.

Chips Lovell

Peregrinus wrote: »

The economy of NI has persistently underperformed that of the Republic for decades now. We're long past the point where this can be attributed to the decline of the shipbuilding and linen industries. It's at least plausible, to put it no higher, that this underperformance is to a material degree atrributable to partition, and the political problems resulting from it, and therefore that an end to partition would open up the possibility of a significant change to NI's requirement for a subvention.

It's almost certainly the case that part of the British government's response to Northern Ireland's volatility has been throwing money at the problem.

The question is, would the attitude of the North's political parties change following unification, or would they just expect Dublin to replicate or even improve on London's largesse?

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

I'd be interested in hearing what these 'lengths' are.


The best thing that Ireland could do is provide good education and well paying jobs.



(I saw last week where the CEO of Northern Ireland Invest resigned which he had been in charge of for the last 10 years). I wasn't impressed with his cv (a former policy advisor to the DUP!). That reeks of jobs for the boys and that will need to stop.

Your last point first - we could go on and on and i could point out eg that the attorney general was gerry adams solicitor etc etc

I am not sure people want bored with a long list of things ni does to accommodate irish nationalists, or want to here you coming back to misrepresent what i am saying and suggesting i dont think they are fair enough things to. but anyhow

Irish signage in many areas
huge funding to developing irish language
removing our flag of many public buildings
making it an offence to fly our flag under certain circumstances
curtailing various parades - indeed the very existence of a parades commission
positive discrimination eg 50% Catholic recruitment to psni while all other minorities & unionists together could only be 50% max
releasing sectarian murderers who killed many of our people
letters of comfort to IRA killers to prevent their prosecution
Tribunal after tribunal eg £100m+ spent on bloody sunday
allowing convicted terrorists into ministerial positions
.....and then the is the endless subtle unspoken stuff eg
don't put parking tickets on cars at GAA games no matter how ridiculously parked they are
allow memorials to IRA on public property without planning permission
etc etc

thats just a few to get you started

FrancieBrady

murphaph wrote: »

Sorry that's a ridiculous post. You are using deliberately emotive language to elicit a response.

Let me turn the tables and see how you like it.

You are prepared to cast aside children needing operations and make them wait because you would rather spend the limited funds on erasing a border between two EU member states.

You might like to pretend there's an unlimited supply of money to fund unification but that is devoid of reality. It will cost money and that money will come from things that tug at the heartstrings too.

You'd swear all the nationalists in the north were clamouring to cross the border and I was standing there booting them in the face the way you phrased your post.

I'm not the one putting a figure on it and trying to emote muraph.
You are.

Avatar MIA

downcow wrote: »

Your last point first - we could go on and on and i could point out eg that the attorney general was gerry adams solicitor etc etc

I am not sure people want bored with a long list of things ni does to accommodate irish nationalists, or want to here you coming back to misrepresent what i am saying and suggesting i dont think they are fair enough things to. but anyhow

Irish signage in many areas
huge funding to developing irish language
removing our flag of many public buildings
making it an offence to fly our flag under certain circumstances
curtailing various parades - indeed the very existence of a parades commission
positive discrimination eg 50% Catholic recruitment to psni while all other minorities & unionists together could only be 50% max
releasing sectarian murderers who killed many of our people
letters of comfort to IRA killers to prevent their prosecution
Tribunal after tribunal eg £100m+ spent on bloody sunday
allowing convicted terrorists into ministerial positions
.....and then the is the endless subtle unspoken stuff eg
don't put parking tickets on cars at GAA games no matter how ridiculously parked they are
allow memorials to IRA on public property without planning permission
etc etc

thats just a few to get you started

Some of those are :pac:
Question for you how much do English signs and funding to develop the English language cost?

You forgot the biggest one of all. Allowing them to vote. That one hurt.

downcow

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Some of those are :pac:
Question for you how much do English signs and funding to develop the English language cost?

You forgot the biggest one of all. Allowing them to vote. That one hurt.

A very predictable response.

.....and check your history with regard to voting, i think you'll find no one was ever prevented from voting because of their religion of national aspirations - but sure don't let the facts get in the way of a good story

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

If i understand your question correctly then it is not really something i can contribute to.
You are right, GFA says if there is a majority then UI happens. I am a democrat and will accept that decision.
But then it will be over to ROI. My community will have zero bargaining power and the challenges will be for ROI or those in power in the New Ireland (NI) - did you like what i done there) to sort out the way ahead.
You will have decisions to make ie do we bend over backwards to accommodate this unionist community now in our midst who are feeling hurt, downtrodden, defeated, dejected, without a home. or do we say sod them and allow those who are able to move across to the mainland and let the Guards police the enclaves that are left behind.
So I am not avoiding the question - its just not a question that my community will be able to contribute to other than say, I can't imagine we will be in the mood for compromise under the circumstances - we will become the crocodiles that you will have to keep feeding

Unionists will be around the table like everyone else.
And they will have to compromise and accomodate just like everyone else.
Unless they are proposing to try and hermetically seal themselves off like protestants did after Independence. You are well aware of what happened to numbers as a result of that.

downcow

Your last point first - we could go on and on and i could point out eg that the attorney general was gerry adams solicitor etc etc

I am not sure people want bored with a long list of things ni does to accommodate irish nationalists, or want to here you coming back to misrepresent what i am saying and suggesting i dont think they are fair enough things to. but anyhow

Irish signage in many areas
huge funding to developing irish language
removing our flag of many public buildings
making it an offence to fly our flag under certain circumstances
curtailing various parades - indeed the very existence of a parades commission
positive discrimination eg 50% Catholic recruitment to PSNI while all other minorities & unionists together could only be 50% max
releasing sectarian murderers who killed many of our people
letters of comfort to IRA killers to prevent their prosecution
Tribunal after tribunal eg £100m+ spent on bloody sunday
allowing convicted terrorists into ministerial positions
.....and then the is the endless subtle unspoken stuff eg
don't put parking tickets on cars at GAA games no matter how ridiculously parked they are
allow memorials to IRA on public property without planning permission
etc etc

thats just a few to get you started

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Some of those are :pac:
Question for you how much do English signs and funding to develop the English language cost?

You forgot the biggest one of all. Allowing them to vote. That one hurt.

I'll tell you what to do. Imagine there was a UI in the morning and flip those statements above

Ulster-scots signage in many areas
huge funding to developing ulster scots culture eg bands
removing Irish flag of many public buildings
making it an offence to fly Irish flag under certain circumstances
curtailing various parades - indeed the very existence of a parades commission
positive discrimination eg 50% Protestant recruitment to Guards while all other minorities & catholics together could only be 50% max
releasing sectarian murderers who killed many of irish people
letters of comfort to Hutch and Kinahan gangs to prevent their prosecution
Tribunal after tribunal eg £100m+ spent on examining Guard collusion with IRA
allowing Hutch and Kinahan gang members into ministerial positions
.....and then the is the endless subtle unspoken stuff eg
don't put parking tickets on cars at Orange parades no matter how ridiculously parked they are
allow memorials to british victims on public property without planning permission
etc etc

How does that look now. is it still just a laugh that you would be happy to accept?

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

No that right was not upheld. The guards asked them to get onto buses to travel to the Dail because the bully boys were blocking their route

So people acted illegally. Would you prefer the Garda left you all to it?

facehugger99

Avatar MIA wrote: »

It was YOUR scenario :pac:

Anyway, nothing would be achieved by it so it wouldn't happen.

A UI is your scenario.:pac:

The likelihood of loyalist terrorism is very high, both in the run-up to a poll and it's aftermath - almost a certainty I would wager.

Anyway, it won't ever happen so no need to unduly worry over it.

Havockk

downcow wrote: »

A very predictable response.

.....and check your history with regard to voting, i think you'll find no one was ever prevented from voting because of their religion of national aspirations - but sure don't let the facts get in the way of a good story

Too much use of 'our' in your last post. This is the fundamental point that unionists have always failed to grasp; The North is contested. It is a special case, and as an Irishman in the north why can I not have my heritage acknowledged and respected?

downcow

Matt Barrett wrote: »

So people acted illegally. Would you prefer the Garda left you all to it?

I would prefer they upheld the law and removed the law breakers

downcow

Havockk wrote: »

Too much use of 'our' in your last post. This is the fundamental point that unionists have always failed to grasp; The North is contested. It is a special case, and as an Irishman in the north why can I not have my heritage acknowledged and respected?

You are missing the point of the question i was answering.

I was stating some modifications in place that would not be required if there were no nationalists in the North. hence the 'our'

Havockk

downcow wrote: »

You are missing the point of the question i was answering.

I was stating some modifications in place that would not be required if there were no nationalists in the North. hence the 'our'

So what flag are you referring to as 'our' one then?

Avatar MIA

downcow wrote: »

Ulster-scots signage in many areas That's fine. More culture is grand.
huge funding to developing ulster scots culture eg bands What huge funding would be required, new drums, sashes. Would you like for trips to be funded. More information required, don't see why it would be huge.
removing Irish flag of many public buildings Why would you like the new agreed flag removed from buildings? But, flags doesn't aren't that big a deal down here. But, in the cold light of day I don't think any unionist politician would seek this.
making it an offence to fly Irish flag under certain circumstances Again, who would be asking for this?
curtailing various parades - indeed the very existence of a parades commission Okay, if you insist we'll curtail parades. Bloody St. Patrick's day parades in freezing weather.
positive discrimination eg 50% Protestant recruitment to psni while all other minorities & catholics together could only be 50% max Does this even still exist? You know the reasons why this was brought in. The reciprocal figure would be approx. 20%, and shur why not. Although, be careful what you ask for. It might have a negative effect on Public Sector jobs. :P
releasing sectarian murderers who killed many of irish people Wasn't that done on both sides. Noses had to be held for that for sure.
letters of comfort to Hutch and Kinahan gangs to prevent their prosecution
Tribunal after tribunal eg £100m+ spent on examining Guard collusion with IRA It can be held at the same time as the RUC collusion inquiry. Neither are likely to happen.
allowing Hutch and Kinahan gang members into ministerial positions Sure, we'll even allow Peter Robinson back into politics.
.....and then the is the endless subtle unspoken stuff eg
don't put parking tickets on cars at Orange parades no matter how ridiculously parked they are
allow memorials to british victims on public property without planning permission
etc etc If travellers can be accommodated for similar we might be able to do the same for Protestants.

How does that look now. is it still just a laugh that you would be happy to accept?

Well, now that that's sorted.

Imreoir2

downcow wrote: »

How would people feel about an independent NI being helped by both UK and ROI?
You get Britain out of Ireland and it doesn't cost you as much - a win win

Perplexed as to how such a think has happend given that there is no legal pathway for it to happen, and almost no support for it outside of a small few unionists who like to think it could be a backup plan if they can't hold onto the union with GB, and even more perplexed at how anyone could think it would work.

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

I would prefer they upheld the law and removed the law breakers

They made arrests. You seem to be citing criminal activity as a state supported problem. And then criticising the Garda for protecting the marchers from it as some how stepping on their rights.

Avatar MIA

downcow wrote: »

.....and check your history with regard to voting, i think you'll find no one was ever prevented from voting because of their religion of national aspirations - but sure don't let the facts get in the way of a good story

When the rules were changed suddenly those very people were able to vote and plural votes were done away with, which meant they were equal. Funny that.

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

How would people feel about an independent NI being helped by both UK and ROI?
You get Britain out of Ireland and it doesn't cost you as much - a win win

Part of the north of the island of Ireland is under British jurisdiction. Seeking a united Ireland is seeking a united Ireland. Are you talking about a new country or merely what's there now sans the union jack and hopefully a stormont that can function? Why would the ROI have any part in financing such a thing, why would the Brits? Sounds like a lose lose. What's the point in changing landlords?

Imreoir2

facehugger99 wrote: »

The increased security spending is likely to be eye-wateringly high to deal with dissident loyalist terrorists.

Not to mention the effect on our economy of a few well-placed bombs in the IFSC or GCD.

We are already indebted up to the eye-balls.

We will struggle to pay the pensions of our existing PS. We will not take on a 'workforce' made up of 30% PS.

You can scream never never never from the rooftops if you want, but until you can start supporting your assertions with actual evidence, then your assertions are not contributing much to the discussion.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Your last point first - we could go on and on and i could point out eg that the attorney general was gerry adams solicitor etc etc

Well, hopefully Gerry Adams solicitor has a law degree at least and is competent. I just looked up the said attorney general - he was a distinguised barrister and first Northern Ireland QC and has advocated for loyalists as well. His CV got him his job.

I am not sure people want bored with a long list of things ni does to accommodate irish nationalists, or want to here you coming back to misrepresent what i am saying and suggesting i dont think they are fair enough things to. but anyhow

Irish signage in many areas - signage needs to be put up anyway.
huge funding to developing irish language - I think plenty of that is coming from the Irish Government.


removing our flag of many public buildings You should consider banning all flags in NI.


making it an offence to fly our flag under certain circumstances: Its either an offence or its not.


curtailing various parades - indeed the very existence of a parades commission Ah yes, stop people antagonising other people. Surely the Parades Commission regulates something that needs regulating.



positive discrimination : eg 50% Catholic recruitment to psni while all : it needs to be done - I think I heard that only 30% of the PSNI are catholics/nationalists.


other minorities & unionists together could only be 50% max They have not got anywhere near that figure yet.


releasing sectarian murderers who killed many of our people:
letters of comfort to IRA killers to prevent their prosecution That is a genuine complaint in which I would have some sympathy for unionists.



Tribunal after tribunal eg £100m+ spent on bloody sunday: That was needed. The State committed a serious wrong there. The only pity it took so long.


allowing convicted terrorists into ministerial positions Depends on the conviction I'd say, but you will find that many people politicians did some awful things and were responsiblity for many deaths (for example, Churchill and Blair).



.....and then the is the endless subtle unspoken stuff eg
don't put parking tickets on cars at GAA games no matter how ridiculously parked they are That is making me laugh.



allow memorials to IRA on public property without planning permission
etc etc Petty.

thats just a few to get you started[/QUOTE]

jm08

downcow wrote: »

A very predictable response.

.....and check your history with regard to voting, i think you'll find no one was ever prevented from voting because of their religion of national aspirations - but sure don't let the facts get in the way of a good story

The poor (catholics) were prevented from voting. One-man-one-vote was introduced (regardless of circumstances) in the UK by 1950. It wasn't introduced until 1969 in NI (and was one of the key Civil Rights demands).

Imreoir2

Irish signage in many areas - signage needs to be put up anyway.

There are infact severe restrictions on where signage in Irish can be erected. Take a streetname, it is neccessary to get a majority of people living on the street to vote in favour of a bilingual streetname sign in Irish and English. That means that even if the vast majority of respondants vote in favour, it does not happen if no votes and non-respondants equall more than 50%. Of course this does not apply if a sign in English only is to be errected, people don't get a say in that. And even if you do manage to leap over the hurdle, you can be fairly sure some local thug will be along shortly to pull it down again or paint over the Irish.

Huge funding to developing irish language - I think plenty of that is coming from the Irish Government.

Yes, the vast majority of it comes from the Irish government, and the funding is given to the Language Institute, which is a cross border body set up under the GFA, which funds both Foras na Gaeilge and the Ulster-Scots Agency.

Removing our flag of many public buildings You should consider banning all flags in NI.

Infact the decision taken was to bring the flying of the British flag in line with standard pracrtice in the rest of the UK. Unionists had insisted on flying the flag every day of the year which only ever happened in NI. Unionists being unionists, they had to insist on being more British than the British themselves.



As for the rest, Downcow presents these as things that Unionists did to accomodate Nationalists when in reality the vast majority of it was done against the bitterest opposition of Unionism.

If after Unification we treated Unionists like Unionists treated and wanted to treat Nationalists, they would be facing some very real fears.

facehugger99

Imreoir2 wrote: »

You can scream never never never from the rooftops if you want, but until you can start supporting your assertions with actual evidence, then your assertions are not contributing much to the discussion.

I'm sure if the issues are without evidence they would be easily dismissed the UI proponents.

Haven't seen that happen yet though.

Imreoir2

facehugger99 wrote: »

I'm sure if the issues are without evidence they would be easily dismissed the UI proponents.

Haven't seen that happen yet though.

Your assertions are opinion masquerading as fact. You assert that once the cost of unification is known that the Irish tax payer will reject it in the referendum, this is your opinion, you have not backed it up.

murphaph

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Your assertions are opinion masquerading as fact. You assert that once the cost of unification is known that the Irish tax payer will reject it in the referendum, this is your opinion, you have not backed it up.

In fairness it's obvious he's just stating his opinion because it's a future possible event. It's impossible to prove one way or the other.

Junkyard Tom

Imreoir2 wrote: »

this is your opinion, you have not backed it up.

It's emotional rhetoric. 'Everything will be terrible if we take this course of action'.