Border Poll discussion

FrancieBrady · 08-03-2019 10:39pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

How can you say that when SF are against the GFA which would make a border poll possible and has brought peace to Ireland?-or would they change their tune if there was a poll now?

Sorry, can you run that by me again?

janfebmar · 08-03-2019 10:41pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Republicans shunned the sham referendum.

What was sham about it? It was open and fair and everyone of voting age had a vote. And not all Republicans shunned it: 1.1 % of voters voted for a united Ireland.

James Brown · 08-03-2019 10:44pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

How can you say that when SF are against the GFA which would make a border poll possible and has brought peace to Ireland?-or would they change their tune if there was a poll now?

Japers. I think you've misspoken there?
Only the dissidents were against the GFA and FG/Lab made one of them a senator.

FrancieBrady · 08-03-2019 10:45pm

janfebmar wrote: »

What was sham about it? It was open and fair and everyone of voting age had a vote. And not all Republicans shunned it: 1.1 % of voters voted for a united Ireland.

It was doomed from the start, because there was an unresolved conflict/war ongoing. It was clear from the outset that there would be a boycott.

McMurphy · 08-03-2019 10:47pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

How can you say that when SF are against the GFA which would make a border poll possible and has brought peace to Ireland?-or would they change their tune if there was a poll now?

Rob are you sure you're au fait with politics in Ireland, especially in the north eastern part?

RobMc59 · 08-03-2019 10:49pm

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Rob are you sure you're au fait with politics in Ireland, especially in the north eastern part?

Apologies-I misread an article in the times-SF backed the GFA.My own fault for believing the times.

janfebmar · 08-03-2019 10:49pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It was doomed from the start, because there was an unresolved conflict/war ongoing. It was clear from the outset that there would be a boycott.

A boycott by a small minority of people. Overall voter turnout was higher than we get in referendums here / elections here, but nobody ever claimed referendums here were not valid because some people boycotted it.

RobMc59 · 08-03-2019 10:50pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sorry, can you run that by me again?

Apologies I was mistaken-SF backed the GFA.

FrancieBrady · 08-03-2019 10:52pm

janfebmar wrote: »

A boycott by a small minority of people. Overall voter turnout was higher than we get in referendums here / elections here, but nobody ever claimed referendums here were not valid because some people boycotted it.

It was valid. The union continued.

The point is, nationalists/republicans voice wasn't heard in it.

That is all we can say about it.

The GFA has a facility for another border poll.

Do you object to that or something?

Charles Babbage · 08-03-2019 11:00pm

downcow wrote: »

I don’t have the energy to go check but I will be surprised if you are telling 60% of unionist want a border in the Irish Sea. I think there must me more to that question than you are stating. As for you other 3 stats there is nothing there surprised me. Is this the same poll that quotes even less satisfaction in Michelle than Arlene ?

I'm sure 60% of unionists do not want a border in the Irish Sea. But if the British English are determined to act in a lunatic manner then this may be the least worst option.

ancapailldorcha · 08-03-2019 11:00pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It was valid. The union continued.

The point is, nationalists/republicans voice wasn't heard in it.

That is all we can say about it.

The GFA has a facility for another border poll.

Do you object to that or something?

Mod: The poster you are responding to has been banned.

Junkyard Tom · 08-03-2019 11:10pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

I'm sure 60% of unionists do not want a border in the Irish Sea. But if the British English are determined to act in a lunatic manner then this may be the least worst option.

It's a total gift.

FrancieBrady · 08-03-2019 11:16pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It's a total gift.

Nobody has adequately analysed or explained the DUP strategy here for me. May's deal or even a NI backstop only is nirvana for them, but for an abstract notion of connection they are literally sacrificing the whole union caboddle. Or at best seriously undermining it. blanch, downcow, rob, any other anti UI posters offer a sensible analysis of why they are going against farming, business and the majority here, when a small abstract swallow gives them at least 20 years of grace before a border poll? I genuinely don't get what they are doing.

blanch152 · 08-03-2019 11:26pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody has adequately analysed or explained the DUP strategy here for me. May's deal or even a NI backstop only is nirvana for them, but for an abstract notion of connection they are literally sacrificing the whole union caboddle. Or at best seriously undermining it. blanch, downcow, rob, any other anti UI posters offer a sensible analysis of why they are going against farming, business and the majority here, when a small abstract swallow gives them at least 20 years of grace before a border poll? I genuinely don't get what they are doing.

I am in favour of a united Ireland.

However, I don't believe it is worth a drop of blood being shed, neither do I believe that Northern Ireland is ready for unity, and until the costs have been fully worked out we shouldn't even consider it. Neither is it that important or that much of a priority. I would much prefer €11bn a year be spent on public transport and environmental protection than on a subvention to Northern Ireland.

FrancieBrady · 08-03-2019 11:30pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I am in favour of a united Ireland.

However, I don't believe it is worth a drop of blood being shed, neither do I believe that Northern Ireland is ready for unity, and until the costs have been fully worked out we shouldn't even consider it. Neither is it that important or that much of a priority. I would much prefer €11bn a year be spent on public transport and environmental protection than on a subvention to Northern Ireland.

It wouldn't be a subvention to 'northern Ireland' it would be an investment in the whole island of Ireland.

Can you answer the question I asked now? If you can't, fair enough.

facehugger99 · 08-03-2019 11:43pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It wouldn't be a subvention to 'northern Ireland' it would be an investment in the whole island of Ireland.

An investment in keeping 30% of the population in their cushy public service jobs?

No thanks.

jm08 · 08-03-2019 11:47pm

janfebmar wrote: »

A boycott by a small minority of people. Overall voter turnout was higher than we get in referendums here / elections here, but nobody ever claimed referendums here were not valid because some people boycotted it.

SDLP (John Hume) called for a boycott and the Alliance Party were not particularly supportive of it either.

1973: Northern Ireland votes for union
The people of Northern Ireland have voted overwhelmingly to remain within the United Kingdom.

In a referendum on the future of the province, 591,280 people or 57% of the electorate voted to retain links with the UK. A boycott by the Roman Catholic population meant only 6,463 voted in favour of a united Ireland.
The turn out was reported to be 59% of the 1,030,084 electorate, although less then 1% of Catholics voted.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/9/newsid_2516000/2516477.stm

FrancieBrady · 08-03-2019 11:50pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

An investment in keeping 30% of the population in their cushy public service jobs?

No thanks.

No, that is just a trite response which you are becoming dependable for.

Public service reform will have to happen, but there is no reason to think that can not be managed.

downcow · 08-03-2019 11:53pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody has adequately analysed or explained the DUP strategy here for me. May's deal or even a NI backstop only is nirvana for them, but for an abstract notion of connection they are literally sacrificing the whole union caboddle. Or at best seriously undermining it. blanch, downcow, rob, any other anti UI posters offer a sensible analysis of why they are going against farming, business and the majority here, when a small abstract swallow gives them at least 20 years of grace before a border poll? I genuinely don't get what they are doing.

I don’t understand the question. Are you asking why the dup are standing by their election pledge?

facehugger99 · 08-03-2019 11:53pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

but there is no reason to think that can not be managed.

There's no reason to think it can be managed.

I wouldn't like to accuse you of trite responses, so perhaps you could post up some examples of successful public service reform that's been managed recently?

Take your time now...........

FrancieBrady · 08-03-2019 11:57pm

downcow wrote: »

I don’t understand the question. Are you asking why the dup are standing by their election pledge?

Yes, In the face of farming, business and other interests, clearly saying that the backstop for northern Ireland suits them best.

FrancieBrady · 09-03-2019 12:04am

facehugger99 wrote: »

There's no reason to think it can be managed.

I wouldn't like to accuse you of trite responses, so perhaps you could post up some examples of successful public service reform that's been managed recently?

Take your time now...........

Here: https://www.reformplan.per.gov.ie/2014/downloads/files/Progress%20report%202017-A4s.pdf

It can be done and it is modified and changed all the time.

facehugger99 · 09-03-2019 12:12am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Here: https://www.reformplan.per.gov.ie/2014/downloads/files/Progress%20report%202017-A4s.pdf

It can be done and it is modified and changed all the time.

For someone with your posting history - you seem very impressed with the shiny FG pamphlets Francie.:D

What about some actual examples - with costings please - showing how pubic service costs have been successfully managed downward.

downcow · 09-03-2019 12:14am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes, In the face of farming, business and other interests, clearly saying that the backstop for northern Ireland suits them best.

I think you mean BIG farming BIG business and other BIG interests.
I don’t here the ordinary man/woman on the street having a problem with them sticking to their promises.

FrancieBrady · 09-03-2019 12:16am

facehugger99 wrote: »

For someone with your posting history - you seem very impressed with the shiny FG pamphlets Francie.:D

What about some actual examples - with costings please - showing how pubic service costs have been successfully managed downward.

Reform can happen and does. It isn't impossible.

You asked for links I supplied them.

Now, any chance you can drop the belligerence and supply us with evidence of the poll that showed 90% wanted unity? It is a corner stone of your argument after all.

FrancieBrady · 09-03-2019 12:23am

downcow wrote: »

I think you mean BIG farming BIG business and other BIG interests.
I don’t here the ordinary man/woman on the street having a problem with them sticking to their promises.

Not sure what 'BIG' has to do with it. Farming in northern Ireland is against Brexit and so is business. Who have a nasty habit of employing the ordinary man and woman on the street.

jm08 · 09-03-2019 12:30am

downcow wrote: »

I don’t understand the question. Are you asking why the dup are standing by their election pledge?

This was their election pledge for last General Election (on Brexit).

The DUP will work to get the best deal for Northern Ireland as the UK leaves the European Union.

http://www.mydup.com/publications/view/2017-westminster-manifesto

They are not standing by their election pledge!

I watched a bit of the Northern Ireland Commons Committee (they had people from Green Party, People Before Profit and TUV in).

One of the DUP MPs (a farmer from Strangford I think) on the committee made a statement that his neighbours (farmers) didn't see any problem with a hard border. He said that the Ulster Farmers Association have got it wrong. Nothing to worry about. He went on to claim that the CEO of Lakeland Dairies said it wouldn't make any difference and all would be well with a hard border. I googled Lakelands and got this headline:

Lakeland Dairies: Dairy giant warns of Brexit impact

"The model we are going to move into will not be as efficient and will not return as much per litre of milk as the model that is currently there," he said.The company exports 240 different products to about 80 countries.
The dairy industry is one of the sectors of agri-food with the greatest exposure to the consequences of leaving the EU.
About a third of Northern Ireland's milk crosses the border into the Republic of Ireland for processing.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-47489777

These people will do or say anything to further their sectarian agenda.

downcow · 09-03-2019 12:33am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Not sure what 'BIG' has to do with it. Farming in northern Ireland is against Brexit and so is business. Who have a nasty habit of employing the ordinary man and woman on the street.

Think about what you are saying. What does it mean eg ‘farming is against brexit’? I don’t know a single farmer, myself included, who really knows whether brexit is good or bad financially. So if there is no evidence for you to decide with your head then you just need to decide with gut feeling. And the farmers I know are up for brexit. I do realise that the big millionaire farmers are pro Eu but that’s up to them.

FrancieBrady · 09-03-2019 12:37am

downcow wrote: »

Think about what you are saying. What does it mean eg ‘farming is against brexit’? I don’t know a single farmer, myself included, who really knows whether brexit is good or bad financially. So if there is no evidence for you to decide with your head then you just need to decide with gut feeling. And the farmers I know are up for brexit. I do realise that the big millionaire farmers are pro Eu but that’s up to them.

Ok, I know a bit about this area.

What kind of farmer are you? Describe farm, employees, stock, etc.

Imreoir2 · 09-03-2019 12:38am

downcow wrote: »

I think you mean BIG farming BIG business and other BIG interests.
I don’t here the ordinary man/woman on the street having a problem with them sticking to their promises.

Really, did you not read the paper that carried the recent poll that showed that the vast majority have a problem with it?

Border Poll discussion

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