Border Poll discussion

downcow

Avatar MIA wrote: »

And to bring back on topic, let them also have a say on an agreed New Ireland after a discussion of what that would be.

This holds no fear for me. I agree but surely it is up to those promoting a New Ireland to tell us exactly what it will be like and provide good solid evidence to support that and an implementation plan. (this is what many are screaming at the Brexiteers for not doing)
...and since, as far as i know, the only group proposing a UI now is SF. So SF should get on with doing the work and providing what we need. Would you agree?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

This holds no fear for me. I agree but surely it is up to those promoting a New Ireland to tell us exactly what it will be like and provide good solid evidence to support that and an implementation plan. (this is what many are screaming at the Brexiteers for not doing)
...and since, as far as i know, the only group proposing a UI now is SF. So SF should get on with doing the work and providing what we need. Would you agree?

Only if at the same time you tell us what northern Ireland remaining in the UK will look like in years to come. You seem to be confused about how it will look after Brexit, and you won't listen to other opinions either.

Avatar MIA

downcow wrote: »

...and since, as far as i know, the only group proposing a UI now is SF. So SF should get on with doing the work and providing what we need. Would you agree?

Clearly not, as much as that may suit you. It would be as inclusive as possible with as much PUL involvement as possible. Of course I can't imagine Arelene would attend, but her direct predecessor might be interested.

downcow

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Clearly not, as much as that may suit you. It would be as inclusive as possible with as much PUL involvement as possible. Of course I can't imagine Arelene would attend, but her direct predecessor might be interested.

Now I can see absolutely no reason why a unionist would be interested in helping SF develop a plan for a UI.
Thats a bit like someone coming into your house to sell life assurance and saying we don't have any figures or materials but we would like you help us produce that information
Unionist will interrogate (and many will ignore) the plan when it is produced.

In fact a better analogy would be asking turkeys to work with us on a plan to develop new exciting menus which include turkey

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Only if at the same time you tell us what northern Ireland remaining in the UK will look like in years to come. You seem to be confused about how it will look after Brexit, and you won't listen to other opinions either.

Until whatever happens with brexit happens who can tell what's going to happen in years to come,either side of the border?

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Until whatever happens with brexit happens who can tell what's going to happen in years to come,either side of the border?

Exactly. So why expect a single party to map out a UI, is the point I made to downcow.

If SF show it as being a success - they won't believe it, and if they show as a failure - they will say, I told you so.

Like nobody saw Brexit coming, the future is impossible to be certain about.

Avatar MIA

downcow wrote: »

Now I can see absolutely no reason why a unionist would be interested in helping SF develop a plan for a UI.
Thats a bit like someone coming into your house to sell life assurance and saying we don't have any figures or materials but we would like you help us produce that information
Unionist will interrogate (and many will ignore) the plan when it is produced.

In fact a better analogy would be asking turkeys to work with us on a plan to develop new exciting menus which include turkey

I thought I was clear. SF would in no way be leaders on this, BUT, I could see Robinson (he used a different insurance analogy if memory serves) and others from the PUL community getting involved.

Btw, if you require life assurance you'll need to supply a lot of personal information.

downcow

Avatar MIA wrote: »

I thought I was clear. SF would in no way be leaders on this, BUT, I could see Robinson (he used a different insurance analogy if memory serves) and others from the PUL community getting involved.

Btw, if you require life assurance you'll need to supply a lot of personal information.

I just can't get why you would think unionists would join this process.
Do you think if Unionists started a process to look at ROI being allowed to join the UK that the irish nationalists would help put the plan together.
Can you see how irrational this idea is?

Avatar MIA

downcow wrote: »

I just can't get why you would think unionists would join this process.
Do you think if Unionists started a process to look at ROI being allowed to join the UK that the irish nationalists would help put the plan together.
Can you see how irrational this idea is?

Don't take my word for it...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/peter-robinson-has-delivered-a-wake-up-call-for-unionism-1.3581228?mode=amp

downcow

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Don't take my word for it...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/peter-robinson-has-delivered-a-wake-up-call-for-unionism-1.3581228?mode=amp

To quote from your linked article - i think this says it all. A has been politician

"Wilson’s annoyance reflected the widespread public and private political reaction from unionism. Ulster Unionist Party chairman Reg Empey accused Robinson of “becoming a Sinn Féin echo chamber” while Traditional Unionist Voice leader Jim Allister said “by his crass comments he fed the republican myth of the inevitability of Irish unity”.

Nationalist politicians unsurprisingly welcomed the comments."

Avatar MIA

downcow wrote: »

To quote from your linked article - i think this says it all. A has been politician

"Wilson’s annoyance reflected the widespread public and private political reaction from unionism. Ulster Unionist Party chairman Reg Empey accused Robinson of “becoming a Sinn Féin echo chamber” while Traditional Unionist Voice leader Jim Allister said “by his crass comments he fed the republican myth of the inevitability of Irish unity”.

Nationalist politicians unsurprisingly welcomed the comments."

You'll be shocked to hear I entirely agree with you. He's a 'has been politician'. But guess what, population wise very few of the PUL community are politicians, which means their livelihood is not dependant on getting votes. That's democracy's major flaw.

It's the very reason Robinson's no longer a politician he's free to talk.

And talking is good.

Let's talk. Words cannot hurt.

And, if you think Ireland joining a brexit UK is a good thing for me I'd hear you out. I'd probably point out I'm living in the third (or was it fourth?) richest region in the EU.

downcow

Avatar MIA wrote: »

You'll be shocked to hear I entirely agree with you. He's a 'has been politician'. But guess what, population wise very few of the PUL community are politicians, which means their livelihood is not dependant on getting votes. That's democracy's major flaw.

It's the very reason Robinson's no longer a politician he's free to talk.

And talking is good.

Let's talk. Words cannot hurt.

And, if you think Ireland joining a brexit UK is a good thing for me I'd hear you out. I'd probably point out I'm living in the third (or was it fourth?) richest region in the EU.

My very point - If you think NI leaving the UK, losing the NHS, detaching from our friends and roots, and joining a wee nation of 5,000,000 who could not possibly provide us the same support then I'd hear you out - but don't expect me to help you to put the flyer together

Avatar MIA

downcow wrote: »

losing the NHS

Ah, the NHS. That old bugbear tell me what's so great about it?

But, it's a good starting point.

By, the way, you seem happy to leave an economy of over 300m for 60m. But, let's stick to the NHS.

downcow

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Ah, the NHS. That old bugbear tell me what's so great about it?

But, it's a good starting point.

By, the way, you seem happy to leave an economy of over 300m for 60m. But, let's stick to the NHS.

Avatar i think you've got it the wrong way round again. You just said a few posts ago that it was up to the person proposing the change to outline the benifits and the other will hear you out

Avatar MIA

downcow wrote: »

Avatar i think you've got it the wrong way round again. You just said a few posts ago that it was up to the person proposing the change to outline the benifits and the other will hear you out

No, I said it should be a dialogue. Is there nothing about the NHS you'd like to extol?

downcow

Avatar MIA wrote: »

No, I said it should be a dialogue. Is there nothing about the NHS you'd like to extol?

this is exactly what you said
"And talking is good.

Let's talk. Words cannot hurt.

And, if you think Ireland joining a brexit UK is a good thing for me I'd hear you out. I'd probably point out I'm living in the third (or was it fourth?) richest region in the EU"

...and i'm happy to hear you out about the benifits of a UI

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

My very point - If you think NI leaving the UK, losing the NHS, detaching from our friends and roots, and joining a wee nation of 5,000,000 who could not possibly provide us the same support then I'd hear you out - but don't expect me to help you to put the flyer together

We wouldn't be 'supporting' you as something 'other'.
You would actually be a part of a cohesive not to mention rational island economy with the dignity of not needing handouts and 'support'.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We wouldn't be 'supporting' you as something 'other'.
You would actually be a part of a cohesive not to mention rational island economy with the dignity of not needing handouts and 'support'.

That's not a fair description,money is distributed from central government to parts of the UK so it's not handouts-how is money distributed in Ireland?

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

That's not a fair description,money is distributed from central government to parts of the UK so it's not handouts-how is money distributed in Ireland?

Northern Ireland has a fake and failed economy. It has gotten away with it due to the rest of the UK being able to ignore it.
I cannot see that continuing after Brexit as at the very least the UK will be battening down the hatches (Even Rees Mogg has admitted this)

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Northern Ireland has a fake and failed economy. It has gotten away with it due to the rest of the UK being able to ignore it.
I cannot see that continuing after Brexit as at the very least the UK will be battening down the hatches (Even Rees Mogg has admitted this)

That's not exactly true either,the rest of the UK isn't ignoring NI which is one of the reasons we are at this impasse which has fortuitously stalled brexit.

Avatar MIA

downcow wrote: »

this is exactly what you said
"And talking is good.

Let's talk. Words cannot hurt.

And, if you think Ireland joining a brexit UK is a good thing for me I'd hear you out. I'd probably point out I'm living in the third (or was it fourth?) richest region in the EU"

...and i'm happy to hear you out about the benifits of a UI

Classic case of reading what you want to see.

But you're not the first person to get all coy when asked why they value the NHS so much. It was just a given in the past. Not so much any more.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

this is exactly what you said
"And talking is good.

Let's talk. Words cannot hurt.

And,if you think Ireland joining a brexit UK is a good thing for me I'd hear you out. I'd probably point out I'm living in the third (or was it fourth?) richest region in the EU"

...and i'm happy to hear you out about the benifits of a UI

Don't think so. You are in one of the poorest. Ireland South (basically Munster) is the 3rd richest region in the EU, Dublin is the 5th (they base it on GDP).


For the record, parts of London is No. 1 and Luxembourg is No. 2.

Avatar MIA

jm08 wrote: »

Don't think so. You are in one of the poorest. Ireland South (basically Munster) is the 3rd richest region in the EU, Dublin is the 5th (they base it on GDP).


For the record, parts of London is No. 1 and Luxembourg is No. 2.

That section was him quoting me to be fair.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

That's not exactly true either,the rest of the UK isn't ignoring NI which is one of the reasons we are at this impasse which has fortuitously stalled brexit.

The know about the backstop, I wouldn't be so sure they know how much it has cost and is going to cost if we get a disastrous Brexit.

Junkyard Tom

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The know about the backstop, I wouldn't be so sure they know how much it has cost and is going to cost if we get a disastrous Brexit.

If there's a crash-out their border in Ireland will be the least of their worries.

downcow

Getting back on topic, could any poster tell me why I should be attracted to leaving UK and joining an all-Ireland?.
I haven’t been overwhelmed the the responses so far

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Getting back on topic, could any poster tell me why I should be attracted to leaving UK and joining an all-Ireland?.
I haven’t been overwhelmed the the responses so far

I accept that there are some Unionists who will never see it as attractive. So there is nothing much I can do about that.

I actually don't see the need to cajole them just to look at the potential. Not everyone is happy with the current arrangement so I have accepted that not everyone will be happy with a UI.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I accept that there are some Unionists who will never see it as attractive. So there is nothing much I can do about that.

I actually don't see the need to cajole them just to look at the potential. Not everyone is happy with the current arrangement so I have accepted that not everyone will be happy with a UI.

A bit of a cop out francie (and from someone who expects brexiteers to explain the benifits of leaving Europe).
But I can completely understand why you are struggling to identify benifits to me of leaving the UK.
I think while they are good enough to allow us to stay we should be grateful and just hang in there

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

A bit of a cop out francie (and from someone who expects brexiteers to explain the benifits of leaving Europe).
But I can completely understand why you are struggling to identify benifits to me of leaving the UK.
I think while they are good enough to allow us to stay we should be grateful and just hang in there

Not struggling at all downcow. Read the thread, all the benefits I see, I have already stated.

We actually read your posts too, you know and I am not interested in trying to cajole a belligerent unionist who has expressed no interest in demolishing myths about something that happened 100 years ago, much less what is happening now.

You have to remember, you are not entitled to be cajoled.

Avatar MIA

downcow wrote: »

Getting back on topic, could any poster tell me why I should be attracted to leaving UK and joining an all-Ireland?.
I haven’t been overwhelmed the the responses so far

Better lifestyle.

Material improvement in lifespan.

Far better prospects for your children so they don't have to cross a sea.

Any of those attractive to you?