Border Poll discussion

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Not struggling at all downcow. Read the thread, all the benefits I see, I have already stated.

We actually read your posts too, you know and I am not interested in trying to cajole a belligerent unionist who has expressed no interest in demolishing myths about something that happened 100 years ago, much less what is happening now.

You have to remember, you are not entitled to be cajoled.

Of course, how bold of me.
If I could be so audacious to ask you to put a few of them in bullet points to save me rereading the entire thread to discover your words of wisdom.
I am actually nervous now that you are going to enlighten me with such benifits that I am going to do an about turn and start working towards a UI utopia

An Ciarraioch

Leaving Orange v Green arguments aside, it can hardly be denied that Westminster concentrates its political and economic resources intensively on the South-East region of England, followed by the Midlands and then the North of England, leaving Scotland, Wales and NI to scrap over bare bones. By contrast, an all-island administration would have NI/nine-county Ulster at the core of its national development planning, with unionist politicians almost continually in Dublin coalitions.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Of course, how bold of me.
If I could be so audacious to ask you to put a few of them in bullet points to save me rereading the entire thread to discover your words of wisdom.
I am actually nervous now that you are going to enlighten me with such benifits that I am going to do an about turn and start working towards a UI utopia

As I said, they are all here on the thread plus contributions from others.

I don't really care what you do re: a UI. You aren't the target audience and you should grasp that fact before it is too late.

downcow

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Better lifestyle.

Material improvement in lifespan.

Far better prospects for your children so they don't have to cross a sea.

Any of those attractive to you?

All stats I can find show life expectancies in UK and roi as both 82 years
Region in Europe with most bmw per head is NI
Prospects are fine here. Indeed my daughter is marrying a Scots guy and he can’t wait to move over to NI.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As I said, they are all here on the thread plus contributions from others.

I don't really care what you do re: a UI. You aren't the target audience and you should grasp that fact before it is too late.

I think your target audience could hold the next meeting in a phone box

CZ 453

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Leaving Orange v Green arguments aside, it can hardly be denied that Westminster concentrates its political and economic resources intensively on the South-East region of England, followed by the Midlands and then the North of England, leaving Scotland, Wales and NI to scrap over bare bones. By contrast, an all-island administration would have NI/nine-county Ulster at the core of its national development planning, with unionist politicians almost continually in Dublin coalitions.

I'm not sure that's correct. Northern Ireland is heavily subsidized.

This is some of the spending from 2017
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2017-40248345

downcow

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Leaving Orange v Green arguments aside, it can hardly be denied that Westminster concentrates its political and economic resources intensively on the South-East region of England, followed by the Midlands and then the North of England, leaving Scotland, Wales and NI to scrap over bare bones. By contrast, an all-island administration would have NI/nine-county Ulster at the core of its national development planning, with unionist politicians almost continually in Dublin coalitions.

Yes the south east is doing wonderful but we should all be grateful that they are using some of their wealth to support the rest of us. £10b a year to this wee place. Not to mention what they give to Eu and indeed a big loan or two to Ireland. Be grateful.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I think your target audience could hold the next meeting in a phone box

32% plus 23% undecided before Brexit is a fine and dandy place to be imo.

Phone boxes are out of date anyhow.

Avatar MIA

downcow wrote: »

All stats I can find show life expectancies in UK and roi as both 82 years
Region in Europe with most bmw per head is NI
Prospects are fine here. Indeed my daughter is marrying a Scots guy and he can’t wait to move over to NI.

Try NI specific life expectancies.
BMW - as in the car manufacturer? What index is that based on?
I didn't simply mean your children specifically, but in general. But, congrats to you and your daughter.

Avatar MIA

downcow wrote: »

Yes the south east is doing wonderful but we should all be grateful that they are using some of their wealth to support the rest of us. £10b a year to this wee place.

They don't actually transfer £10b to NI.

downcow wrote: »

... and indeed a big loan or two to Ireland. Be grateful.

The loan they wouldn't allow us to pay back early because they are making too much interest on it? Thanks. :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

Avatar MIA wrote: »

They don't actually transfer £10b to NI.



The loan they wouldn't allow us to pay back early because they are making too much interest on it? Thanks. :rolleyes:

The one that was only given to save their own banks.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Public service reform will have to happen, but there is no reason to think that can not be managed.

And can you give examples on this island of such public service reform having happened before?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

And can you give examples on this island of such public service reform having happened before?

Lots of things haven't here and then they did. Like constitutional changes on northern Ireland, marriage etc etc.

A UI presents opportunity, to reform health and the public services...start again so to speak.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Lots of things haven't here and then they did. Like constitutional changes on northern Ireland, marriage etc etc.

A UI presents opportunity, to reform health and the public services...start again so to speak.

So it hasn't happened before yet there is no reason to think it can't be managed?

That is certainly convincing.

downcow

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Try NI specific life expectancies.
BMW - as in the car manufacturer? What index is that based on?
I didn't simply mean your children specifically, but in general. But, congrats to you and your daughter.

Don’t take my word for it. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-irish-happiest-people-in-uk-and-its-official-36170333.html

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

So it hasn't happened before yet there is no reason to think it can't be managed?

That is certainly convincing.

And vice versa.

Things change all the time. Some because they have to and some because there is a better way to do things.

downcow

downcow wrote: »

Don’t take my word for it. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-irish-happiest-people-in-uk-and-its-official-36170333.html

....and oh deary me. Look at this in comparison https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/its-official-irish-ranks-last-for-happiness-in-western-europe-318893-Jan2012/%3famp=1

Avatar MIA

downcow wrote: »

Don’t take my word for it. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-irish-happiest-people-in-uk-and-its-official-36170333.html

What's noteworthy about that? So, NI is happiest of a pretty poor place (compared to Ireland) for human happiness index?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report

Avatar MIA

downcow wrote: »

....and oh deary me. Look at this in comparison https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/its-official-irish-ranks-last-for-happiness-in-western-europe-318893-Jan2012/%3famp=1

That was taken at possibly the worst time possible for Ireland. But, I'd still stick to the U.N. Version.

downcow

Avatar MIA wrote: »

That was taken at possibly the worst time possible for Ireland. But, I'd still stick to the U.N. Version.

It sounds like we’re all ok. You are very happy with life in roi and I am very happy with lifestyle in NI. So let’s not upset the apple cart

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

It sounds like we’re all ok. You are very happy with life in roi and I am very happy with lifestyle in NI. So let’s not upset the apple cart

Tell that to Arlene when you are looking to London to replace the 58 quid per head the EU give you, as well as the 9-10-11-12 billion.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

It sounds like we’re all ok. You are very happy with life in roi and I am very happy with lifestyle in NI. So let’s not upset the apple cart

GDP of Northern Ireland is €27,200 per person (the lowest on the island of Ireland). The average in the EU is €30,000).

The Southern Region (includes Cork, Limerick, Tipp, Waterford, Wexford)'s GDP is €74,700 - thats nearly three times what it is in NI.

Dublin, Kildare and Midlands GDP is €64,000 per person.

Other places that NI has a similar GDP are Normandy in France and Brandenburg in Germany.

If your future son in law comes from southern Scotland, I can understand why he is looking forward to moving to NI - its GDP is €21,600 per person.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/southern-part-of-ireland-third-richest-in-eu-but-west-lags-behind-1.3811364

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

GDP of Northern Ireland is €27,200 per person (the lowest on the island of Ireland). The average in the EU is €30,000).

The Southern Region (includes Cork, Limerick, Tipp, Waterford, Wexford)'s GDP is €74,700 - thats nearly three times what it is in NI.

Dublin, Kildare and Midlands GDP is €64,000 per person.

Other places that NI has a similar GDP are Normandy in France and Brandenburg in Germany.

If your future son in law comes from southern Scotland, I can understand why he is looking forward to moving to NI - its GDP is €21,600 per person.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/southern-part-of-ireland-third-richest-in-eu-but-west-lags-behind-1.3811364

So tell me again why you would like roi & NI to unify? Seems to me if you believe the stats you have mentioned then you would be out of your mind to want to take responsibility for NI.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So tell me again why you would like roi & NI to unify? Seems to me if you believe the stats you have mentioned then you would be out of your mind to want to take responsibility for NI.

Nobody wants to take 'responsibility' for it. You need to get rid of the colony mentality.

What we want to do is integrate it into a cohesive all island society and economy, we want Irish people to have the dignity of self determination and self respect as full contributors to that society.
I find it amazing how you openly wear the subvention as a badge of honour almost. You hear a lot of people do that.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody wants to take 'responsibility' for it. You need to get rid of the colony mentality.

What we want to do is integrate it into a cohesive all island society and economy, we want Irish people to have the dignity of self determination and self respect as full contributors to that society.
I find it amazing how you openly wear the subvention as a badge of honour almost. You hear a lot of people do that.

But francie an important starting point for you would be to accept that a majority of the people north of the border don’t share your view and do not regard themselves as Irish (or at least your nationalist view of it). When you remove the British, northern Irish and others then you have a very small number left.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

But francie an important starting point for you would be to accept that a majority of the people north of the border don’t share your view and do not regard themselves as Irish (or at least your nationalist view of it). When you remove the British, northern Irish and others then you have a very small number left.

I accept that there is not a majority yet.
Most recent polling shows 32% for it 45% against and 23% undecided.

Which of those numbers do you consider 'small'?

Avatar MIA

downcow wrote: »

But francie an important starting point for you would be to accept that a majority of the people north of the border don’t share your view and do not regard themselves as Irish (or at least your nationalist view of it). When you remove the British, northern Irish and others then you have a very small number left.

You're only looking to be controversial now. Tell me, what other country/region in the world has a poll showing only 45% of the people saying definitively they were not in favour of ceceeding?

Is that a confident place to be?

Sam Russell

downcow wrote: »

But francie an important starting point for you would be to accept that a majority of the people north of the border don’t share your view and do not regard themselves as Irish (or at least your nationalist view of it). When you remove the British, northern Irish and others then you have a very small number left.

If a majority do not want a united Ireland, then it will not happen.

Perifect

I don't want the north to join the south or vice versa. I think both states have had and still have major flaws. One erupted into a 30 year war, the other had an over-influence from a church who abused their powers. One should not join the other, a whole new state should be formed.

Sam Russell

Perifect wrote: »

I don't want the north to join the south or vice versa. I think both states have had and still have major flaws. One erupted into a 30 year war, the other had an over-influence from a church who abused their powers. One should not join the other, a whole new state should be formed.

I think that is what would, in effect, happen.

The church you refer to - is it in the north or the south?