Border Poll discussion

Perifect

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think that is what would, in effect, happen.

The church you refer to - is it in the north or the south?

Both. There also were wars and great violence in both states.

I hope that's what happens but it's not what I hear from people. It all appears to be about the north joining the south. We need a major discussion on what our new country constitutes. I think the Éire Nua idea of a federal system should be looked at.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody wants to take 'responsibility' for it. You need to get rid of the colony mentality.

What we want to do is integrate it into a cohesive all island society and economy, we want Irish people to have the dignity of self determination and self respect as full contributors to that society.
I find it amazing how you openly wear the subvention as a badge of honour almost. You hear a lot of people do that.

If the people of NI are happy with the way things are and are content with their lifestyle and position within a powerful western nation,why should they change just because others say so?It doesn't make sense!

jm08

downcow wrote: »

So tell me again why you would like roi & NI to unify? Seems to me if you believe the stats you have mentioned then you would be out of your mind to want to take responsibility for NI.

Its not that I would 'like' a reunification. I was quite happy with the GFA until the DUP decided to thrash it (with the assistance of the British Government) with Brexit.

The poorest regions (EU electoral constituencies) in the ROI are those along the Border, but even these regions are better off than Northern Ireland. I'd like everyone to be equally prosperous and have no issue with assisting the people of NI to become responsible for itself.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

If the people of NI are happy with the way things are and are content with their lifestyle and position within a powerful western nation,why should they change just because others say so?It doesn't make sense!

'Others'?

You may need to read the GFA...That 'powerful western nation' along with this nation has stated 'It is for the people of the island of Ireland alone to decide their future'.

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

If the people of NI are happy with the way things are and are content with their lifestyle and position within a powerful western nation,why should they change just because others say so?It doesn't make sense!

They are not though, are they? One in three young people not returning to NI who go to universities in either UK or ROI. Your Irish wife (from border region) doesn't want to return.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Others'?

You may need to read the GFA...That 'powerful western nation' along with this nation has stated 'It is for the people of the island of Ireland alone to decide their future'.

That's fine but your almost "mayesque" unwillingness to listen to anyone else's point of view is your downfall-if there is sufficient demand in NI for a poll then that's ok.

Havockk

RobMc59 wrote: »

If the people of NI are happy with the way things are and are content with their lifestyle and position within a powerful western nation,why should they change just because others say so?It doesn't make sense!

If.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

That's fine but your almost "mayesque" unwillingness to listen to anyone else's point of view is your downfall-if there is sufficient demand in NI for a poll then that's ok.

I'm listening and debating my point of view. I accepted downcow's point that there isn't a majority currently.
What do you think I am not listening to?

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

The poorest regions (EU electoral constituencies) in the ROI are those along the Border, but even these regions are better off than Northern Ireland. I'd like everyone to be equally prosperous and have no issue with assisting the people of NI to become responsible for itself.

Who was it said ‘lies, damned lies and statistics’
I have many friends south of the border and every one of them express their envy of our lifestyle in the north, in particular our access to healthcare, medication, etc. Every one I know in the north believes the same and even my most ardent republican friends willingly accept we all need to take a financial hit in a UI (some will suggest it will be ok as the UK have a duty to keep supporting in a UI scenario)
So the evidence would suggest your stats are skewed.
And the irony of people telling us we need Eu or we will be in ruin are the same people saying we should stand on our own two feet when it comes to support from UK.
...and from people living in roi which had billions pumped into it from Eu (much of which was recycled UK money)

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Who was it said ‘lies, damned lies and statistics’
I have many friends south of the border and every one of them express their envy of our lifestyle in the north, in particular our access to healthcare, medication, etc. Every one I know in the north believes the same and even my most ardent republican friends willingly accept we all need to take a financial hit in a UI (some will suggest it will be ok as the UK have a duty to keep supporting in a UI scenario)
So the evidence would suggest your stats are skewed.
And the irony of people telling us we need Eu or we will be in ruin are the same people saying we should stand on our own two feet when it comes to support from UK.
...and from people living in roi which had billions pumped into it from Eu (much of which was recycled UK money)

What 'evidence'?

The people you chat to?

Havockk

downcow wrote: »

Who was it said ‘lies, damned lies and statistics’
I have many friends south of the border and every one of them express their envy of our lifestyle in the north, in particular our access to healthcare, medication, etc. Every one I know in the north believes the same and even my most ardent republican friends willingly accept we all need to take a financial hit in a UI (some will suggest it will be ok as the UK have a duty to keep supporting in a UI scenario)
So the evidence would suggest your stats are skewed.
And the irony of people telling us we need Eu or we will be in ruin are the same people saying we should stand on our own two feet when it comes to support from UK.
...and from people living in roi which had billions pumped into it from Eu (much of which was recycled UK money)

None of this is based on reality.

Avatar MIA

downcow wrote: »

Who was it said ‘lies, damned lies and statistics’
I have many friends south of the border and every one of them express their envy of our lifestyle in the north, in particular our access to healthcare, medication, etc. Every one I know in the north believes the same and even my most ardent republican friends willingly accept we all need to take a financial hit in a UI (some will suggest it will be ok as the UK have a duty to keep supporting in a UI scenario)
So the evidence would suggest your stats are skewed.
And the irony of people telling us we need Eu or we will be in ruin are the same people saying we should stand on our own two feet when it comes to support from UK.
...and from people living in roi which had billions pumped into it from Eu (much of which was recycled UK money)

This fantastic healthcare/medication, the same one which you cannot clarify the benefits of?

Charles Babbage

downcow wrote: »

Who was it said ‘lies, damned lies and statistics’
I have many friends south of the border and every one of them express their envy of our lifestyle in the north, in particular our access to healthcare, medication, etc.

Life expectancy for men
NI 78.4 (and declining)
ROI 79.7 (and increasing)

Healthcare in the 6 counties may be cheap, but it isn't very good.

None of this is based on reality.

Reality is dispensable for unionists.

RobMc59

downcow wrote: »

Who was it said ‘lies, damned lies and statistics’
I have many friends south of the border and every one of them express their envy of our lifestyle in the north, in particular our access to healthcare, medication, etc. Every one I know in the north believes the same and even my most ardent republican friends willingly accept we all need to take a financial hit in a UI (some will suggest it will be ok as the UK have a duty to keep supporting in a UI scenario)
So the evidence would suggest your stats are skewed.
And the irony of people telling us we need Eu or we will be in ruin are the same people saying we should stand on our own two feet when it comes to support from UK.
...and from people living in roi which had billions pumped into it from Eu (much of which was recycled UK money)

And those same people want everything their own way but want the EU,UK ,the US or uncle tom cobbley to pay for it.!

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Who was it said ‘lies, damned lies and statistics’
I have many friends south of the border and every one of them express their envy of our lifestyle in the north, in particular our access to healthcare, medication, etc. Every one I know in the north believes the same and even my most ardent republican friends willingly accept we all need to take a financial hit in a UI (some will suggest it will be ok as the UK have a duty to keep supporting in a UI scenario)
So the evidence would suggest your stats are skewed.
And the irony of people telling us we need Eu or we will be in ruin are the same people saying we should stand on our own two feet when it comes to support from UK.
...and from people living in roi which had billions pumped into it from Eu (much of which was recycled UK money)

Those are EU stats and are broken down by European Parliament Constituency. Are you suggesting that HMRC are telling porkies to the EU Commission?

Its a long time ago since Ireland got its large injection of funds (mainly thanks to Germany I think as it was back in the 80s when all our roads were built).

The island of Ireland is a huge producer of food and provide high quality, cheap food to the UK in particular. The reason why the food is cheap is because it is subsidised by CAP.

And for the NHS - from what I hear its falling apart and at least here, with 3rd level education still fairly accessible for everyone, not just the elite.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

And those same people want everything their own way but want the EU,UK ,the US or uncle tom cobbley to pay for it.!

Whinging about the money you contributed to the EU, when you knew what membership required you to do, is a bit rich tbh.

We knew when we joined that one day we would become net contributors, and we are STILL happy to be a member..overwhelmingly so.

Can you think of a few reasons why that might be the case? Perhaps look at the benefits of being in the EU that are fleeing the UK right now, and you might find some answers to that.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Whinging about the money you contributed to the EU, when you knew what membership required you to do, is a bit rich tbh.

We knew when we joined that one day we would become net contributors, and we are STILL happy to be a member..overwhelmingly so.

Can you think of a few reasons why that might be the case? Perhaps look at the benefits of being in the EU that are fleeing the UK right now, and you might find some answers to that.

I've got no problem with the EU and am a remainer,I've also got no problem with a UI if that's what the people of NI want.

McMurphy

RobMc59 wrote: »

If the people of NI are happy with the way things are and are content with their lifestyle and position within a powerful western nation,why should they change just because others say so?It doesn't make sense!

The people in the north voted by a majority to remain within the EU.

They look set to be dragged out of it against their wishes.

Goose and Gander springs to mind.

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

They are not though, are they? One in three young people not returning to NI who go to universities in either UK or ROI. Your Irish wife (from border region) doesn't want to return.

She does want to return but as I'm sure you know house prices within commuting distance of Dublin are very high.She doesn't want to live in NI whilst me with my Ulster Scots ancestry wouldn't mind NI.

downcow

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

The people in the north voted by a majority to remain within the EU.

They look set to be dragged out of it against their wishes.

Goose and Gander springs to mind.

This wat I mean about how stats can be abused.
Just because every political party but one in NI campaigned for remain and resulted in a slight remain majority. Some of the people who voted remain would be disgusted if they thought that vote was being taken to suggest they would leave the UK should brexit win. That’s nonsense.
I’ve told you before I was fairly neutral and didn’t vote but had I voted remain I would not be happy at you suggesting that meant I put membership of Eu ahead of membership of UK

downcow

Avatar MIA wrote: »

This fantastic healthcare/medication, the same one which you cannot clarify the benefits of?

If I am feeling unwell tonight, I can phone my gp at 8.30 in the morning and I will get an appointment same day. If after attending I need medication then she will write a prescription which I will take to my pharmacy and get meds handed to me.

Phone call to doc. £0
Consultation with doc £0
Blood tests etc with nurse £0
Charge for prescription £0
Charge for medication. £0
Living in UK. Priceless

I’m told it’s different down south

RobMc59

downcow wrote: »

If I am feeling unwell tonight, I can phone my gp at 8.30 in the morning and I will get an appointment same day. If after attending I need medication then she will write a prescription which I will take to my pharmacy and get meds handed to me.

Phone call to doc. £0
Consultation with doc £0
Blood tests etc with nurse £0
Charge for prescription £0
Charge for medication. £0
Living in UK. Priceless

I’m told it’s different down south

You can also travel to the doctors in your car that you may not have to pay road tax on if it's low emissions and return to your house that you haven't had to pay stamp duty on when you purchased it.

Fionn1952

RobMc59 wrote: »

downcow wrote: »

If I am feeling unwell tonight, I can phone my gp at 8.30 in the morning and I will get an appointment same day. If after attending I need medication then she will write a prescription which I will take to my pharmacy and get meds handed to me.

Phone call to doc. £0
Consultation with doc £0
Blood tests etc with nurse £0
Charge for prescription £0
Charge for medication. £0
Living in UK. Priceless

I’m told it’s different down south

You can also travel to the doctors in your car that you may not have to pay road tax on if it's low emissions and return to your house that you haven't had to pay stamp duty on when you purchased it.

It's ok, down here, I can manage to pay all of those things and have a lot left over thanks to my significantly increased salary, besides, my work provided health insurance covers the majority of the health care costs. I don't tend to drive too often, as I have great train links to most places I need to be, which I certainly couldn't say back home in the North West.

Considering my brother has been on a waiting list for around a year for a procedure in the North, and I had something similar done a few years back, with a two week wait, it isnt all sunshine and lollipops with the NHS either - cheap isn't necessarily the same as good (nor will I sh*t all over the NHS though - without the fine staff of the Altnagelvin, I likely would've lost a leg during my teen years, and without those of the Royal in Belfast, my father wouldn't be with us)

The North is lovely in a lot of ways, it's my birthplace, and remains the home of the majority of my family, it isnt the third world country some are implying, but let's not play silly buggers and pretend it's the land of milk and honey either.

Avatar MIA

downcow wrote: »

I’m told it’s different down south

Damn skippy it is.

You're a spoofer my friend.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/health/a-week-to-see-the-doctor-patients-in-northern-ireland-face-longest-delays-in-uk-29521253.html

The complaints about being able to see a GP in NI in short order is well known, so don't think you'll get away with that.

I think all such services are free in the likes of Cuba/Russia as well, but the service isn't great.

The less well off in Ireland get all those for free too - approx half the country. The rest pay a moderate fee, but because their income is far superior it's not too burdensome.

Next issue?

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

ut let's not play silly buggers and pretend it's the land of milk and honey either.

That is exactly what the poster is doing. He presents the aspirations of the NHS as the reality. As we all know, the reality is different and more nuanced.

Avatar MIA

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That is exactly what the poster is doing. He presents the aspirations of the NHS as the reality. As we all know, the reality is different and more nuanced.

Do you think the likes of Ress-Mogg rely on the NHS?


Bupa UK Insurance is the UK’s leading health insurer, offering health insurance to 2.2 million people.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

If I am feeling unwell tonight, I can phone my gp at 8.30 in the morning and I will get an appointment same day. If after attending I need medication then she will write a prescription which I will take to my pharmacy and get meds handed to me.

Phone call to doc. £0
Consultation with doc £0
Blood tests etc with nurse £0
Charge for prescription £0
Charge for medication. £0
Living in UK. Priceless

I’m told it’s different down south

I see that there has been a 5% increase in Council Tax in the UK. That brings the annual cost to the most common band (D) to £1,671 per annum.

I know they don't pay Council Tax in NI (another difference to the rest of the UK), but are Rates at a similar level?

facehugger99

RobMc59 wrote: »

I've got no problem with the EU and am a remainer,I've also got no problem with a UI if that's what the people of NI want.

The people of ROI would need to vote for it too, which would be highly unlikely given the financial implications.

A stand alone state would be the most likely outcome of NI choosing to leave the Union.

FrancieBrady

facehugger99 wrote: »

The people of ROI would need to vote for it too, which would be highly unlikely given the financial implications.

A stand alone state would be the most likely outcome of NI choosing to leave the Union.

An 'independent state' choice would have to be on the ballot and it won't. That would have to be separate as we in the south would have no say in that.

A border poll under the auspices of the GFA will have a Stay or Unity option only.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

It's ok, down here, I can manage to pay all of those things and have a lot left over thanks to my significantly increased salary, besides, my work provided health insurance covers the majority of the health care costs. I don't tend to drive too often, as I have great train links to most places I need to be, which I certainly couldn't say back home

Well now a few people came up to visit last week from cork and they drive because they couldn’t afford the extortionate train fares