Border Poll discussion

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

You dream some bizarre things up and this is another one of them-NI is part of the UK and will be unless they decide they don't want to be-and if they decide that,fine.But until then dream on.
You are entitled to your opinion but waffling fantasies and untruths wears thin after a while.

Where is the dream/fantasy there? How could the events of the last few years give an Irish person or even a moderate Unionist anything but unease about their role in the 'Union'?

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Certainty would be helpful to relationships in north.

Unionist representatives have treated the nationalist population with utter contempt and all you can say is 'stop talking about a UI' or in other words 'we don't want to hear about your perfectly legitimate democratic aspirations'.

That's just heaping contempt upon contempt.

McMurphy

RobMc59 wrote: »

You dream some bizarre things up and this is another one of them-NI is part of the UK and will be unless they decide they don't want to be-and if they decide that,fine.But until then dream on.
You are entitled to your opinion but waffling fantasies and untruths wears thin after a while.

The British government tried to throw the DUP under the bus and sell them out, only they got wind of it.

How can you claim what is fact as untruthful or fantastical?

downcow

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

The British government tried to throw the DUP under the bus and sell them out, only they got wind of it.

How can you claim what is fact as untruthful or fantastical?

Not on topic of this thread. By the sound of things anybody could get knocked down by a bus tonight

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where is the dream/fantasy there? How could the events of the last few years give an Irish person or even a moderate Unionist anything but unease about their role in the 'Union'?

I couldn't give a toss about the DUP,or TM and her cronies-I do care about my country the UK which is made up of NI,England,Scotland and Wales-if you don't like the UK and want a UI that's ok but I've never seen you say one good thing about Britain or NI and most of the time if you end up arguing with someone it's normally you who is derogatory or belittling about what is dear to some-you are ashamed of nothing but offended by everything.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

I couldn't give a toss about the DUP,or TM and her cronies-I do care about my country the UK which is made up of NI,England,Scotland and Wales-if you don't like the UK and want a UI that's ok but I've never seen you say one good thing about Britain or NI and most of the time if you end up arguing with someone it's normally you who is derogatory or belittling about what is dear to some-you are ashamed of nothing but offended by everything.

Here is what I said.

Depends on how much a Deal hurts the north. And it will to some extent. t isn't a bed of roses even if the UK accept the deal.

One thing that is demolished (and this hasn't happened for a whole new generation) is the idea that Westminster and the rest of the UK has any genuine care for Ireland, north or south. That imo will be pivotal if it comes to a vote.

It is my honest appraisal of how things stand. If that offends you, there is not much I can do about that. If we are gonna get into the usual, 'you hate all things British' race to the bottom, you'll have to do that on your own.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Here is what I said.

It is my honest appraisal of how things stand. If that offends you, there is not much I can do about that. If we are gonna get into the usual, 'you hate all things British' race to the bottom, you'll have to do that on your own.

In that case you won't have a problem sharing one thing you like about Britain and the same for NI.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

In that case you won't have a problem sharing one thing you like about Britain and the same for NI.

This is a politics forum. If you are offended by political comment then I cannot help you. I am not here to massage anyone's ego or indeed to hurt their ego.

If you have a political point to make to rebut what I said, make it.

Depends on how much a Deal hurts the north. And it will to some extent. t isn't a bed of roses even if the UK accept the deal.

One thing that is demolished (and this hasn't happened for a whole new generation) is the idea that Westminster and the rest of the UK has any genuine care for Ireland, north or south. That imo will be pivotal if it comes to a vote.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where is the dream/fantasy there? How could the events of the last few years give an Irish person or even a moderate Unionist anything but unease about their role in the 'Union'?

Do you know something about the deal just agreed that nobody else does?

If May comes back with a deal that the DUP can support, surely that shows that the UK went to the wire for the Union, putting the Union first ahead of a border down the Irish Sea.

Now I haven't seen the deal, but your idea may well be a dream or fantasy then.

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

Do you know something about the deal just agreed that nobody else does?

If May comes back with a deal that the DUP can support, surely that shows that the UK went to the wire for the Union, putting the Union first ahead of a border down the Irish Sea.

Now I haven't seen the deal, but your idea may well be a dream or fantasy then.

Ah come on, were you asleep in December 2017?

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

If May comes back with a deal that the DUP can support, surely that shows that the UK went to the wire for the Union.

It would show nothing more than the DUP's having the Tories by the balls. Everyone knows this, even Unionists know this. You don't seem to though.

Tedious.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Do you know something about the deal just agreed that nobody else does?

If May comes back with a deal that the DUP can support, surely that shows that the UK went to the wire for the Union, putting the Union first ahead of a border down the Irish Sea.

Now I haven't seen the deal, but your idea may well be a dream or fantasy then.

And we are supposed to forget about the past two years? Seems to be the prerequisite that 'we forget' what the British did in order to appease unionists.

There was a Brigadier on Clare Byrne tonight asking that we do the same about Bloody Sunday funnily enough.

Peregrinus

blanch152 wrote: »

Do you know something about the deal just agreed that nobody else does?

If May comes back with a deal that the DUP can support, surely that shows that the UK went to the wire for the Union, putting the Union first ahead of a border down the Irish Sea.

Well, no. The "Border down the Irish Sea" question only ever arose because May adopted a set of red lines for which "Border down the Irish Sea" was the only possible reconciliation. On the most charitable possible interpretation, she would only have done that if she had given no thought at all to the effect of her choices on Northern Ireland and its place in the Union, which is hardly consistent with her later claim to regard the Union as "precious".

May put the Unionists in this situation, and did so entirely voluntarily, and her later efforts to get them out of it are nothing more than an attempt to repair some of the damage that she herself has done - most probably, not because she sincerely regrets the damage but rather because the DUP have her over a barrel.

I don't think Unionists would be wise to take much comfort from that.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This is a politics forum. If you are offended by political comment then I cannot help you. I am not here to massage anyone's ego or indeed to hurt their ego.

If you have a political point to make to rebut what I said, make it.

I think you are disingenuous-but that won't bother you,its been said before.

FrancieBrady

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, no. The "Border down the Irish Sea" question only ever arose because May adopted a set of red lines for which "Border down the Irish Sea" was the only possible reconciliation. On the most charitable possible interpretation, she would only have done that if she had given no thought at all to the effect of her choices on Northern Ireland and its place in the Union, which is hardly consistent with her later claim to regard the Union as "precious".

May put the Unionists in this situation, and did so entirely voluntarily, and her later efforts to get them out of it are nothing more than an attempt to repair some of the damage that she herself has done - most probably, not because she sincerely regrets the damage but rather because the DUP have her over a barrel.

I don't think Unionists would be wise to take much comfort from that.

If the DUP go for this, it will be a complete betrayal of them because they'll have gone for it not because they agree with it, but because they have been snookered into it.
It will be 'Never Never Never... Well Ok Then', all over again.

It is about the best the rest of us could have gotten out of the whole sorry affair, but it only buys a little time. Trying to take the north out without even considering the problems with that, was the betrayal of care for both nationalist and unionist and now we have the unionists thrown under the bus with the Backstop intact.
The Trade Talks have all the potential to do far more damage to the Union if they can heal divisions enough to get this over the line today.

Avatar MIA

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Trade Talks have all the potential to do far more damage to the Union if they can heal divisions enough to get this over the line today.

This is a major victory for the DUP, the UK government have shown true stiff upper lip and have forced the EU to pitifully back down as they always knew they would.


(psst, wait until they pass it in the HoC first )

downcow

Avatar MIA wrote: »

This is a major victory for the DUP, the UK government have shown true stiff upper lip and have forced the EU to pitifully back down as they always knew they would.


(psst, wait until they pass it in the HoC first )

I would love to respond to this arrogant Irish nonsense and myth but I fear I’ll be in trouble for not adhering to boards rules if I enter an off-topic discussion. So I’ll watch from a distance

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I would love to respond to this arrogant Irish nonsense and myth but I fear I’ll be in trouble for not adhering to boards rules if I enter an off-topic discussion. So I’ll watch from a distance

As a unionist are you minded to accept this or reject it? The WA hasn't been re-opened and the Backstop has not been changed. Are the added docs enough for you?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As a unionist are you minded to accept this or reject it? The WA hasn't been re-opened and the Backstop has not been changed. Are the added docs enough for you?

Francie it is off topic and particularly ironic that you are asking as you are one of the team who worked to get all the decenting voices successfully removed from the brexit thread - where I could have commented

ancapailldorcha

downcow wrote: »

I would love to respond to this arrogant Irish nonsense and myth but I fear I’ll be in trouble for not adhering to boards rules if I enter an off-topic discussion. So I’ll watch from a distance

downcow wrote: »

Francie it is off topic and particularly ironic that you are asking as you are one of the team who worked to get all the decenting voices successfully removed from the brexit thread - where I could have commented

Banned.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

I would love to respond to this arrogant Irish nonsense and myth but I fear I’ll be in trouble for not adhering to boards rules if I enter an off-topic discussion. So I’ll watch from a distance

Do you always think that referring to things as "Irish" somehow makes it more valid?

You do know that we don't give a crap about your nonsensical "big house" notions?

Nothing above is offensive and we are more than in our rights to laugh at how amateurish the DUP and the rest of the UK body politic have been.

Having had to put up with unionist intransigence and tantrums for a 100 years, it's kinda lovely watching it go down the drain.

James Brown

It's dewey eyed romanticism or what ever else we've been hearing on the part of the DUP. I think they could be the business kingmakers. Imagine being part of the UK but having the trade like a member of the EU? Politically and economically the backstop would be great for N.I. surely? Clinging to a long gone empire that only pays attention to them if it can swing a vote, that's the nonsense right there.

facehugger99

Matt Barrett wrote: »

IClinging to a long gone empire that only pays attention to them if it can swing a vote, that's the nonsense right there.

The 'empire' ponys up 10 billion a year to keep the lights on.
.

10 billion a year the ROI can't afford and won't pay.


They know what side their bread is buttered on and that won't be changing for the foreseeable.

circadian

One of my biggest fears over a Border Poll is the risk of a misinformation campaign being run just like Brexit. We are very much in the scope and this would be an easy target to stoke tensions and cause chaos both sides of the border. How would we even begin to tackle this problem along with trying to maintain meaningful dialogue?

Infini

circadian wrote: »

One of my biggest fears over a Border Poll is the risk of a misinformation campaign being run just like Brexit. We are very much in the scope and this would be an easy target to stoke tensions and cause chaos both sides of the border. How would we even begin to tackle this problem along with trying to maintain meaningful dialogue?

The difference is were far better at referendum's here than in the likes of the UK. We'd have people on our side pushing fact's and clear information and all it would take is to have people on hand to tackle the DUP's ignorant BS and any other headbanger like Sammy Wilson by hitting them with fact's and shutting them down if they try passing off misinformation and opinionated BS like they're facts.
Get the fact's across, get the reasons for a UI across and counter and shut down the idiot's trying to BS their way through argument's when they fail to back up their case with FACTS.

Avatar MIA

That's my experience as well, normally intelligent people stating as fact that a No-Deal brexit was what they were voting on in the referendum.

But it was a ridiculously vague referendum with no clear mandate. Technically, leaving the EU and slavishly following the EU rules and contributing the same money was in line with the referendum outcome. :rolleyes:

^^^ Off topic, so to add. The proposed soft border down the Irish sea - is that actually (pride aside) the best outcome for unionists?

James Brown

facehugger99 wrote: »

The 'empire' ponys up 10 billion a year to keep the lights on.
.

10 billion a year the ROI can't afford and won't pay.


They know what side their bread is buttered on and that won't be changing for the foreseeable.

So they shouldn't strive for improvement? You've not addressed my comment other than taking the word 'empire'. Would a backstop not put N.I. in a good position economically, or is that being too non-UK for the unionists?

The British will do what's best for the British. They'll drop Northern Ireland when convenient. Look at their ignorance on it and the quality of Minister they assign to it.

facehugger99

Matt Barrett wrote: »

. They'll drop Northern Ireland when convenient. Look at their ignorance on it and the quality of Minister they assign to it.

No, they won't.

NI's been very inconvenient for decades and there's no sign of it being dropped - that's just wishful thinking on your part - the evidence literally proves the opposite of your statements.

James Brown

facehugger99 wrote: »

No, they won't.

NI's been very inconvenient for decades and there's no sign of it being dropped - that's just wishful thinking on your part - the evidence literally proves the opposite of your statements.

Twice you've selectively quoted me, avoiding a straightforward query.

If things get too tight, they might be more willing to support a poll sooner is all.

Would putting the economic good that might come from any backstop ahead of any antiquated sense of empire, (or as someone suggested culture) not make more sense?

jm08

circadian wrote: »

One of my biggest fears over a Border Poll is the risk of a misinformation campaign being run just like Brexit. We are very much in the scope and this would be an easy target to stoke tensions and cause chaos both sides of the border. How would we even begin to tackle this problem along with trying to maintain meaningful dialogue?

Campaign of disquading may have started already to frighten people of ROI off in this article.

Some interesting bits of information about the NHS though:

Urgent plans for health service reform are stalled, and waiting lists are out of control, with almost 95,000 people forced to wait more than a year for a first consultant-led appointment at a hospital.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/southerners-should-be-careful-what-they-wish-for-with-a-border-poll-1.3823289

The comments are well worth reading, particularly this one from Cat1:

...... to frighten people in the ROI in the light of current pro-unity polls there, part of the unionist agenda will be to place 'thought pieces' such as this in southern newspaper to frighten ROI citizens away from supporting Irish unity, and by the look of the responses here Ms Meredith's piece has achieved that. As a middle class, educated northern nationalist I would ask PLEASE don't allow it to. Our families were trapped on the northern side of the border after partition and unable to leave because we had farms, businesses and aging family here, while you in the south got to live free of British tyranny for a century. Many catholics have died here and current legacy proceedings are revealing just how dangerous it was for us for generations ......