Border Poll discussion

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You've a very bizarre take on this.
One is a leader of a party whose main goal is ushering in a United Ireland and having any form of English/British authority removed. Marching on St. Patrick's Day, behind a flag saying as much. I don't see the political shock and awe value others do obviously.
Furthermore your comparison is absolutely flawed. Since when is seeking a united Ireland the same as looking to kick out a religious minority? What of the Jews? What of the Protestants in the south? You're not making much of an argument but more of a massive leap. It's not credible and gymnastics of Olympic proportions.
Coveney was way out of order using the killings to score a point on SF IMO. It was gutter politics. 'Clumsy' is a cop out on your behalf TBF.

The banner didn't say "Let's work for a united Ireland" which I would have no problem with her marching behind. It said "English out of Ireland" which is a very different slogan and the type of thing we should have left behind decades ago.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

To be honest, I know very little about McGregor, from what I do, I wouldn't want to be associated with him, but I don't think that marching in the same parade as him (and far away from him from what I understand) sends any kind of political or other message. From a quick google, he has some convictions for speeding and another one for damaging a bus which some see as a publicity stunt. Whatever your view of his "sport" and I detest it, that isn't enough to see him as embarrassing.

Seriously, you don't know a lot about McGregor? His tuggish behaviour (which has seen him arrested twice now) in the US is what is embarrassing (not to mention his lack of respect for the Irish courts).

I note you failed to respond to the rest of my post. Unionists are not English. If it was 'Brits out' unionists might have some reason for being annoyed.

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

Seriously, you don't know a lot about McGregor? His tuggish behaviour (which has seen him arrested twice now) in the US is what is embarrassing (not to mention his lack of respect for the Irish courts).

I note you failed to respond to the rest of my post. Unionists are not English. If it was 'Brits out' unionists might have some reason for being annoyed.

I have some English friends living here, how do I explain your post to them?

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

The banner didn't say "Let's work for a united Ireland" which I would have no problem with her marching behind. It said "English out of Ireland" which is a very different slogan and the type of thing we should have left behind decades ago.

No it didn't, English in that context would have been referring to people, nationality - English.

The banner had England out of Ireland, which has a completely different meaning, and would be completely inline with SF policies, the main one being the aspiration of a United Ireland, ie an end to British government involvement in the island.

Straws being clutched at, and men being constructed with the straw I think.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

I have some English friends living here, how do I explain your post to them?

You can point them in the direction of the Irish-American organisation that organised the banner.

Now, can you suggest how ML could have avoided walking behind the banner of her Irish-American hosts without offending them?

blanch152

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

No it didn't, English in that context would have been referring to people, nationality - English.

The banner had England out of Ireland, which has a completely different meaning, and would be completely inline with SF policies, the main one being the aspiration of a United Ireland, ie an end to British government involvement in the island.

Straws being clutched at, and men being constructed with the straw I think.

Within your own post you are contradicting yourself. England is not the British government.

Even "No more British rule" would have been better than what she marched upon, but I am just going to leave it there rather than continue a ding-dong on this.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Within your own post you are contradicting yourself. England is not the British government.

Even "No more British rule" would have been better than what she marched upon, but I am just going to leave it there rather than continue a ding-dong on this.

Are you suggesting Mary Lou was supporting throwing every English person out of Ireland? Seriously? Or every Protestant, aligned with Unionism or not or even Arlene Foster herself? You are twisting nonsense here.
Yet Coveney was 'clumsy'? You're not credible on this.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

Within your own post you are contradicting yourself. England is not the British government.

I No I wasn't contradicting myself, I was correcting your misleading (accidentally I'm sure) post that inferred MLMD was happily marching behind a banner that was calling for "English out of Ireland"

We both know what the banners sentiments were, but one of us is seeking to twist it for some unsurprising reason.

Even "No more British rule" would have been better than what she marched upon, but I am just going to leave it there rather than continue a ding-dong on this.

Have you ever considered writing SF catchy slogans or literature for them?

Dyr

blanch152 wrote: »

To be honest, I know very little about McGregor, from what I do, I wouldn't want to be associated with him, but I don't think that marching in the same parade as him (and far away from him from what I understand)

If you dragged your attention away from Sinn Fein for a bit you'd have a better understanding.

Marching beside a convicted thug. Racist. links to criminal figures. Bad form for a Taoiseach, poor judgement.

Await long winded condemnation posts from your good self with bated breath.

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You've a very bizarre take on this.
One is a leader of a party whose main goal is ushering in a United Ireland and having any form of English/British authority removed. Marching on St. Patrick's Day, behind a flag saying as much. I don't see the political shock and awe value others do obviously.
Furthermore your comparison is absolutely flawed. Since when is seeking a united Ireland the same as looking to kick out a religious minority? What of the Jews? What of the Protestants in the south? You're not making much of an argument but more of a massive leap. It's not credible and gymnastics of Olympic proportions.
Coveney was way out of order using the killings to score a point on SF IMO. It was gutter politics. 'Clumsy' is a cop out on your behalf TBF.

Are you suggesting that Unionists are English? That seems to be the only logical take from what you're suggesting.

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta

jm08 wrote: »

Seriously, you don't know a lot about McGregor? His tuggish behaviour (which has seen him arrested twice now) in the US is what is embarrassing (not to mention his lack of respect for the Irish courts).

I note you failed to respond to the rest of my post. Unionists are not English. If it was 'Brits out' unionists might have some reason for being annoyed.

Unionists aren't British either.

Junkyard Tom

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta wrote: »

Unionists aren't British either.

A lot of them consider themselves British as is their right.

ancapailldorcha

Speaking as an Ulster Unionist myself, I strongly consider myself Irish first and foremost. I wouldn't remotely consider myself British. Most Unionists I've known, including those most fervent feel the same way.

Just my own experience of course.

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

A lot of them consider themselves British as is their right.

A lot of them might consider themselves British, but I think it's a lazy generalisation to say Unionists = British. There are probably plenty of people who believe for various reasons that membership of the Union is beneficial to Northern Ireland but they may not consider themselves "British".

Junkyard Tom

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Just my own experience of course.

That's interesting and I'm surprised by it because according to some polls up to 40% of the population in the north consider themselves 'British Only'.



https://www.thedetail.tv/articles/so-what-s-the-political-future

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta wrote: »

it's a lazy generalisation to say Unionists = British.

Oh I know that which is why I try to avoid assigning an identity to anyone as it's their own business.

ancapailldorcha

Interesting.

2011 was well before Brexit had inflamed tensions and the RHI scandal so I thought the "British only" figure would be lower.

For myself at least, there's no reason for me to consider myself British. None whatsoever. I don't think I've known a single person who feels British in Ulster. Several who would fly a Union flag of course but they do that because they feel part of the United Kingdom as opposed to being British or English.

McMurphy

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta wrote: »

Are you suggesting that Unionists are English? That seems to be the only logical take from what you're suggesting.

There's misreading a post, and there's misreading a post, but this seems to be misrepresentation of one.

Unionists are quite welcome to remain in Ireland, either north or south I'm sure.

The sentiments above are directed at an end to British rule (which by and large is administered from England).

No point trying to personalise it and misinterpreting it as to anyone wanting to see unionists, British, or even English people be gone from the island.

The banner reference (that apparently isn't even an SF one) was calling for England to get out of Ireland.

This obviously means the British government.

This is straw clutching and deliberate misinterpretation I think.

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta

You think incorrectly then. As an aside, isn't "British rule" a direct result of NI's own failures to self-govern?

jm08

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta wrote: »

Unionists aren't British either.

They are if they want to be British. Northern Ireland unionists are not English (which is what was on the banner).

James Brown

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta wrote: »

Are you suggesting that Unionists are English? That seems to be the only logical take from what you're suggesting.

Your logic is flawed. Blanch equated ML marching with an 'English out of Ireland' banner with those persecuting minorities. I asked a series of questions for clarification.

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta wrote: »

A lot of them might consider themselves British, but I think it's a lazy generalisation to say Unionists = British. There are probably plenty of people who believe for various reasons that membership of the Union is beneficial to Northern Ireland but they may not consider themselves "British".

Many of them are of Ulster first and foremost. They've some catchy one liners saying as much, 'Ulster says no', 'love Ulster' and so on.

McMurphy

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta wrote: »

You think incorrectly then. As an aside, isn't "British rule" a direct result of NI's own failures to self-govern?

No.

Look up partition.

James Brown

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta wrote: »

You think incorrectly then. As an aside, isn't "British rule" a direct result of NI's own failures to self-govern?

How is he incorrect? Do you believe ML by marching with that banner wants to kick anyone claiming to be English out? Or more logically it's a reference to British rule, centered in England?

Failures to self govern? You really have to consider one side accusing the other of corruption and not wanting to deal with them. One side not wanting to be part of the UK and some feeling the British should have no authority what so ever in Ireland. So saying 'failure to self govern' is a bit of an over simplification of the matter. Not to mention this self governing is at the behest and with permission of a foreign British government based in England.

jm08

There has been much talk about the perks of being part of the UK (such as NHS). This article throws a new light on how good things are in NI. At least in the ROI, you won't have to wait 3 weeks to get an appointment with a GP and 4 to 5 year wait for outpatient appointment. Big problems with the schools as well, with parents providing toilet rolls and other supplies.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/19/dup-bung-schools-hospitals-northern-ireland

BonnieSituation

Matt Barrett wrote: »

So we've gone from us not needing the cost or headache to them being better off without us? We have many ongoing generational problems, as does NI, but family is family.

Exactly the opposite point is being made Matt

James Brown

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Exactly the opposite point is being made Matt

My mistake. I was recalling people being sent to NI for surgery by Healy-Rae.

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

There has been much talk about the perks of being part of the UK (such as NHS). This article throws a new light on how good things are in NI. At least in the ROI, you won't have to wait 3 weeks to get an appointment with a GP and 4 to 5 year wait for outpatient appointment. Big problems with the schools as well, with parents providing toilet rolls and other supplies.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/19/dup-bung-schools-hospitals-northern-ireland

The NHS is creaking at the seams but is still a brilliant service-years of tory austerity haven't helped either.The current gripes about the NHS have only really surfaced since they got into power.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

The NHS is creaking at the seams but is still a brilliant service-years of tory austerity haven't helped either.The current gripes about the NHS have only really surfaced since they got into power.

Not so according to some.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/how-labour-broke-nhs-and-why-labour-must-fix-it

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Not so according to some.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/how-labour-broke-nhs-and-why-labour-must-fix-it

It may have been started by Labour but has only filtered down over the last few years.Any service which is free is going to struggle at times but scraping the NHS in favour of an insurance funded system would`nt be popular here I believe.
I`m not that familiar with the Irish health system although older in laws seem to be well looked after.

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Speaking as an Ulster Unionist myself, I strongly consider myself Irish first and foremost. I wouldn't remotely consider myself British. Most Unionists I've known, including those most fervent feel the same way.

Just my own experience of course.

Does this mean you maybe from one of the counties not part of NI but part of Ulster?I ask as I thought you had expressed concern about your status in Britain which wouldn't be the case if you where from NI?

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

Does this mean you maybe from one of the counties not part of NI but part of Ulster?I ask as I thought you had expressed concern about your status in Britain which wouldn't be the case if you where from NI?

I'm from Donegal. I come from a staunchly Unionist, Protestant family.