Border Poll discussion

James Brown

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm from Donegal. I come from a staunchly Unionist, Protestant family.

You are an example of the futility in any silly talk regarding anyone without an Aran sweater and a bodhrán getting ran out of the country because ML marched with a banner in the Paddy's day parade.
Does it need be pointed out that many seeking a united Ireland might also be Protestant? I know one personally. Not discussed it with others I know. Where I grew up your postal code decided how you were looked upon, not your religion. Sadly we still have that.

I get the power of the scaremongering but I would suggest the republic has had far less incidents of institutionalised religious related intolerance than the six counties not in the republic in modern times. So why anyone might think a united Ireland would be any different than the republic is currently as regards the rights and treatment of members of any religion makes no sense to me, other than for scaremongering purposes.

BonnieSituation

I was watching Spotlight last night.

Guests were:

Máirtín Ó Muilleoir, MLA and former Belfast Mayor.

Liam Halligan, economist and English first generation Irishman selling his unique brand of "I'm of Irish descent so my opinion outweighs yours" nonsense. Repeatedly and antagonistically referred to "this part of the United Kingdom".

Naomi Long, Alliance leader. Came across relatively well but her "moderate unionist" mask slipped a couple of times.

Diarmuid Ferriter, Historian and Irish Times contributor

Edwin Poots, MLA and former minister for health in Stormont administration who believes that the world is 6000 years old.

---

Obviously being essentially a local version of QT the focus was on Ireland north and south.

Poots smirked throughout with the sort of patronising guff that really blows me away. Constantly blamed SF for a lack of Stormont. Ridiculous Carry on. And I'm being deadly serious when I say this, it was the sort of performance that if he was wheeled out during a
Reunification campaign would sway any small n nationalists who may be thinking with their pockets.

The likes of Poots and Wilson are a gift for Nationalism.

Much better moderation than you would ever get with QT but there is clearly a unionist bias in the audience.

ancapailldorcha

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You are an example of the futility in any silly talk regarding anyone without an Aran sweater and a bodhrán getting ran out of the country because ML marched with a banner in the Paddy's day parade.
Does it need be pointed out that many seeking a united Ireland might also be Protestant? I know one personally. Not discussed it with others I know. Where I grew up your postal code decided how you were looked upon, not your religion. Sadly we still have that.

I get the power of the scaremongering but I would suggest the republic has had far less incidents of institutionalised religious related intolerance than the six counties not in the republic in modern times. So why anyone might think a united Ireland would be any different than the republic is currently as regards the rights and treatment of members of any religion makes no sense to me, other than for scaremongering purposes.

Another poster asked what my background is. I answered and you decide to post insults? How does that advance the UI cause, exactly?

James Brown

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Another poster asked what my background is. I answered and you decide to post insults? How does that advance the UI cause, exactly?

Seriously, what insult are you imagining here?
I pointed out the idea any unionist or protestant would be ran out after a united Ireland was a nonsense.
I grew up with Protestants, neither me nor any of them give two f**s about religion.
You are an example that unionists, protestants can live and function in the republic.

ancapailldorcha

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Seriously, what insult are you imagining here?

You called me an example of futility.

BonnieSituation

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You called me an example of futility.

In fairness to Matt, he was saying that the talk of running out of anyone that doesn't conform to the devalera ideal of Irish people is futile and just scaremongering.

ancapailldorcha

BonnieSituation wrote: »

In fairness to Matt, he was saying that the talk of running out of anyone that doesn't conform to the devalera ideal of Irish people is futile and just scaremongering.

But he then went on to build a silly caricature and then shoot it down without letting the fact that I never said any of that get in his way.

ancapailldorcha

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Seriously, what insult are you imagining here?
I pointed out the idea any unionist or protestant would be ran out after a united Ireland was a nonsense.
I grew up with Protestants, neither me nor any of them give two f**s about religion.
You are an example that unionists, protestants can live and function in the republic.

When did I say Protestants would be run out? Quote me please.

I was asked a question. I answered it.

James Brown

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You called me an example of futility.

This is very clearly saying you being a Unionist/Protestant, living in the Republic, shows that any talk suggesting people like you might be run out of a United Ireland is nonsense, a futile discussion as you prove it's not the case.

You are an example of the futility in any silly talk regarding anyone without an Aran sweater and a bodhrán getting ran out of the country because ML marched with a banner in the Paddy's day parade.

Can you elaborate under what context I describe you or Unionist/Protestants as a futility, pointless, useless?

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

But he then went on to build a silly caricature and then shoot it down without letting the fact that I never said any of that get in his way.

Again, this was to show how any talk of anyone being ran out after a united Ireland because of differences was nonsense.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

When did I say Protestants would be run out? Quote me please.

I was asked a question. I answered it.

Never said you did. Since when does referring generally to 'any talk' directly point to one person, specifically when there are no quotes?
I think you misread my post and responded in haste. In fact you obviously did.

ancapailldorcha

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Can you elaborate under what context I describe you or Unionist/Protestants as a futility, pointless, useless?

Your post above. Specifically the example of futility bit.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Never said you did. Since when does referring generally to 'any talk' directly point to one person, specifically when there are no quotes?
I think you misread my post and responded in haste. In fact you obviously did.

You quoted my post. If you weren't having a go at me as you say, it might have helped if you'd been a bit more specific and perhaps spaced out the post better.

James Brown

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Your post above. Specifically the example of futility bit.



You quoted my post. If you weren't having a go at me as you say, it might have helped if you'd been a bit more specific and perhaps spaced out the post better.

I suggest you take this issue up with the MODS. I'm done answering your false claims.

Junkyard Tom

Ye're getting your wires crossed lads. As I read it Matt's first sentence was referring to Ancapailldorcha as the personification of an Irish person from a Unionist/Protestant background, and the rest was speaking to the general arguments against a UI that being Protestant/Unionist was not compatible with a broader sense of belonging to the Irish nation.

jm08

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm from Donegal. I come from a staunchly Unionist, Protestant family.

Are you/your family still entitled to a British passport*? As far as I know, anyone born in ROI before 1949 are entitled to a British passport. Can children of people born before then keep their British citizenship?


*or possibly being born in a hospital in NI.

ancapailldorcha

jm08 wrote: »

Are you/your family still entitled to a British passport*? As far as I know, anyone born in ROI before 1949 are entitled to a British passport. Can children of people born before then keep their British citizenship?


*or possibly being born in a hospital in NI.

I am by my virtue of having been here a while. I've no idea if there any sort of CTA-provisions for British passports for Irish citizens. The CTA isn't a bilateral treaty so I doubt it.

jm08

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I am by my virtue of having been here a while. I've no idea if there any sort of CTA-provisions for British passports for Irish citizens. The CTA isn't a bilateral treaty so I doubt it.

I've wondered about this and the anglo-Irish gentry - for example, would someone like Henry Mountcharles (more likely his decendents) be able to sit in the House of Lords?

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm from Donegal. I come from a staunchly Unionist, Protestant family.

The reason I asked was because i have been looking into my own family originally from Donegal(protestant)and until recently i was unaware this continues with a strong presence still today.
I frequently have discussions with my sons who tend to listen to their Drogheda mother rather than me with regards to Irish matters!
I've no interest in sectarianism and would like to see a UI when the time is right.

Frank Castle

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Your post above. Specifically the example of futility bit.



You quoted my post. If you weren't having a go at me as you say, it might have helped if you'd been a bit more specific and perhaps spaced out the post better.

Honestly as a Protestant from Donegal myself, I think you are going out of your way to get offended here.
It's fairly obvious what he is trying to say tbh, and now having moved to Mayo I fully agree with what he is saying. (tbh growing up on the border of Donegal (and living in the North itself) the attitudes are the same as in the North in regards to religion. Its not like that at all down here).

jm08 wrote: »

Are you/your family still entitled to a British passport*? As far as I know, anyone born in ROI before 1949 are entitled to a British passport. Can children of people born before then keep their British citizenship?


*or possibly being born in a hospital in NI.

Tbh any protestant from Donegal will have family in the North who they will use to get a passport.
But yes, if your parents are entitled to a passport (via being born in NI or before 1949) then you are too.

ancapailldorcha

jm08 wrote: »

I've wondered about this and the anglo-Irish gentry - for example, would someone like Henry Mountcharles (more likely his decendents) be able to sit in the House of Lords?

I honestly have no idea. I think herediary peerages have been abolished so he'd have to be nominated.

RobMc59 wrote: »

The reason I asked was because i have been looking into my own family originally from Donegal(protestant)and until recently i was unaware this continues with a strong presence still today.
I frequently have discussions with my sons who tend to listen to their Drogheda mother rather than me with regards to Irish matters!
I've no interest in sectarianism and would like to see a UI when the time is right.

Ah right. Been a long times since I lived there full time but the Orange Order still has its parade in Rossnowlagh if that's any sort of metric. That said, any sort of unionism where I'm from was far from vocal in terms of lobbying or agitation.

Junkyard Tom

Out of interest, would Unionists in Donegal want all of Ireland under British jurisdiction or just all of Ulster?

ancapailldorcha

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Out of interest, would Unionists in Donegal want all of Ireland under British jurisdiction or just all of Ulster?

To be honest, I'm not even sure they'd want all of Ulster. They're probably so used to the status quo that they wouldn't dream of changing it. For any more extreme, the former seems to be very much more likely than the latter.

FrancieBrady

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

To be honest, I'm not even sure they'd want all of Ulster. They're probably so used to the status quo that they wouldn't dream of changing it. For any more extreme, the former seems to be very much more likely than the latter.

So not technically 'Unionists' then?

ancapailldorcha

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So not technically 'Unionists' then?

Or just moderate Unionists.

The border was drawn to ensure that Unionists were a majority in Northern Ireland. Bringing either Donegal, Cavan & Monaghan or the 26 counties into the UK would cause a loss of Unionist hegemony.

I think it's the former. I really don't see how the DUP can continue much longer as a political force. It's so hostile to anyone outside it's rabid base. Sinn Féin have done a much better job in preparing for the future.

FrancieBrady

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Or just moderate Unionists.

The border was drawn to ensure that Unionists were a majority in Northern Ireland. Bringing either Donegal, Cavan & Monaghan or the 26 counties into the UK would cause a loss of Unionist hegemony.

I think it's the former. I really don't see how the DUP can continue much longer as a political force. It's so hostile to anyone outside it's rabid base. Sinn Féin have done a much better job in preparing for the future.

How can you brand them Unionists of any degree and say this though?

To be honest, I'm not even sure they'd want all of Ulster. They're probably so used to the status quo that they wouldn't dream of changing it.

Like my wife, they are Irish Protestants living in a border county.

ancapailldorcha

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How can you brand them Unionists of any degree and say this though?

Quite easily. A quick google threw up the following definition:

a person, especially a member of a Northern Ireland political party, who is in favour of the union of Northern Ireland with Great Britain.

FrancieBrady

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Quite easily. A quick google threw up the following definition:

Are they members of a NI political party?

Somebody living in the south and happy with the status quo there but in favour of partition, would be more correctly defined as a Partitionist.
Many southeners favour the Union of NI and Britain, but I would refer to them as Unionists.

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are they members of a NI political party?

Somebody living in the south and happy with the status quo there but in favour of partition, would be more correctly defined as a Partitionist.
Many southeners favour the Union of NI and Britain, but I would refer to them as Unionists.

Ah Francie. You know he means cultural unionism which generally equates to cultural protestantism.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Ah Francie. You know he means cultural unionism which generally equates to cultural protestantism.

I am over 50 years living on the border, married to a Protestant, with protestant children and I have never heard the term 'cultural unionism' much less know what it means.

Junkyard Tom

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I really don't see how the DUP can continue much longer as a political force.

Reports of their demise are greatly exaggerated. The DUP are essentially the anti-Irish/Gael party and that whole Irish/Gael thing isn't going anywhere.

The DUP have destroyed any chance of a hybrid 'northern' Irish identity taking hold.

ancapailldorcha

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Reports of their demise are greatly exaggerated. The DUP are essentially the anti-Irish/Gael party and that whole Irish/Gael thing isn't going anywhere.

The DUP have destroyed any chance of a hybrid 'northern' Irish identity taking hold.

Oh no, they're fine as ever. Now. I'm talking a decade or two from now. How much of their support base will have passed away. Will today's Northern Irish 30 year old vote for them in a decade or two? It'll be easier to estimate once the uncertainty around Brexit is resolved.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are they members of a NI political party?

Somebody living in the south and happy with the status quo there but in favour of partition, would be more correctly defined as a Partitionist.
Many southeners favour the Union of NI and Britain, but I would refer to them as Unionists.

Partitionist is a term of abuse on social media, it is not a definition of a political viewpoint. To be valid as a political definition rather than a term of abuse, those who are "partitionists" should self-define as such, rather than being labelled as such by others. They don't self-define as such.