Border Poll discussion

RobMc59

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Well as you aren't familiar with the terminology used for many decades I understand your confusion. Suffice to say your idea that theres some form of outrage to be had is mistaken.

If the cream of the conservative party seem to know little about NI it's not surprising some others in the English education system aren't aware of issues concerning NI.

Matt,of course I'm familiar with Brits out-my wife is an Irish Catholic and I have no problem with the Irish wish for a UI-I don't see everything the same way as someone with a republican view but I'm not a million miles from it.

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

The banner is embarrassing as it is incorrect.If it is referring to Britain out it should say Britain out.I'm not offended by it,to an English person it's funny as it shows ignorance of the composition of the UK.

Its the banner of the Brehon Law Society and is over 100 years old. Its the only political banner allowed in the New York St Patrick's Day parade.

Composition of the UK has nothing got to do with who holds the power! It would seem nothing has changed from a 100 years ago and now when we get an eyeful of how influential Scotland is in Westminister in the Brexit debate. English PMs, Ministers, parties make all the decisions for the UK. That banner is just as true now as it was 100 years ago.

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

Its the banner of the Brehon Law Society and is over 100 years old. Its the only political banner allowed in the New York St Patrick's Day parade.

Composition of the UK has nothing got to do with who holds the power! It would seem nothing has changed from a 100 years ago and now when we get an eyeful of how influential Scotland is in Westminister in the Brexit debate. English PMs, Ministers, parties make all the decisions for the UK. That banner is just as true now as it was 100 years ago.

It doesn't matter as she has apologised anyway but the damage has been done to SF popularity-bit of an own goal..
https://www.irishcentral.com/news/sinn-feins-popularity-sinks-banner-controversy

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

It doesn't matter as she has apologised anyway but the damage has been done to SF popularity-bit of an own goal..
https://www.irishcentral.com/news/sinn-feins-popularity-sinks-banner-controversy

I responded to this comment you made.

The banner is embarrassing as it is incorrect.If it is referring to Britain out it should say Britain out.I'm not offended by it,to an English person it's funny as it shows ignorance of the composition of the UK.

I don't see how it is embarrassing for Mary Lou as its the banner of the New York Brehan Law Society. And I think it shows up your ignorance of the composition of the UK if you don't realise that all power in the UK is in England's hands. Scotland and Wales are irrelevant. Unionist politicians in NI get the chance every 20 or 30 years to put the screws on the British Gov., though in fairness to John Major, he didn't let them.

Dyr

Peregrinus wrote: »

I don't think that, and I've never said that I do.
We didn't amend Art 3 "just because" the Unionists demanded it; still less because they "made us"; we amended it because we perceived that doing so would help to build peace in Ireland, and awareness of unionist view about it was undoubtedly a significant factor in that perception.

I'm going to guess that you weren't around during the late 90s because we absolutely did. We amended both articles to allow for certain elements of the GFA to take effect, and we did so explicitly. The changes to the constitution would not come into effect until after those elements of GFA locked in.

If that's not a direct horse trade then I don't know what is.

Peregrinus

Bambi wrote: »

I'm going to guess that you weren't around during the late 90s because we absolutely did. We amended both articles to allow for certain elements of the GFA to take effect, and we did so explicitly. The changes to the constitution would not come into effect until after those elements of GFA locked in.

If that's not a direct horse trade then I don't know what is.

I was around in the 90s. I voted in that referendum. I don't see that anything you have posted here contradicts anything I said. Unionists didn't "make us" change the Constitution; how could they? We knew they wanted us to change the Constitution, and we chose to do so not just because they wanted it, but because we knew that acceding to their wishes in this regard would facilitate a peace settlement in Ireland, which was something we wanted.

McMurphy

RobMc59 wrote: »

It doesn't matter as she has apologised anyway but the damage has been done to SF popularity-bit of an own goal..
https://www.irishcentral.com/news/sinn-feins-popularity-sinks-banner-controversy

She apologised to anyone who showed themselves up as being politically ignorant to the wording on the banner.

But she reiterated her support for the sentiments of it.

Mary Lou McDonald wrote:

"Far from apologising for it, I wear that political position as a badge of honour," she said.

Which has been covered already.

Dyr

Peregrinus wrote: »

I was around in the 90s. I voted in that referendum. I don't see that anything you have posted here contradicts anything I said. Unionists didn't "make us" change the Constitution; how could they? We knew they wanted us to change the Constitution, and we chose to do so not just because they wanted it, but because we knew that acceding to their wishes in this regard would facilitate a peace settlement in Ireland, which was something we wanted.

Then you will remember that it was a direct trade, we were not removing articles 2 & 3 unless power sharing etc. was in place.



You're trying to shift your point to the motivation for the trade, you're essentially now making a weasel words argument.

Peregrinus

Bambi wrote: »

Then you will remember that it was a direct trade, we were not removing articles 2 & 3 unless power sharing etc. was in place.



You're trying to shift your point to the motivation for the trade, you're essentially now making a weasel words argument.

No, I'm not. A trade is something you agree to. That's completely the opposite of compulsion, which is something you don't agree to.

BonnieSituation

20 years ago today we had reports of the British Army moving out of the grounds of Crossmaglen Rangers GAA club in Armagh.

https://www.rte.ie/archives/2019/0306/1034611-british-army-to-leave-gaa-grounds/

It's things like this that people are quick to dismiss when they hear hard border.

No one wants this. Again. Ever.

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

I responded to this comment you made.



I don't see how it is embarrassing for Mary Lou as its the banner of the New York Brehan Law Society. And I think it shows up your ignorance of the composition of the UK if you don't realise that all power in the UK is in England's hands. Scotland and Wales are irrelevant. Unionist politicians in NI get the chance every 20 or 30 years to put the screws on the British Gov., though in fairness to John Major, he didn't let them.

There is nothing in your post worth replying to-it's all fanciful rambling and an insult to the people of Scotland and Wales.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

There is nothing in your post worth replying to-it's all fanciful rambling and an insult to the people of Scotland and Wales.

You just responded?

The UK is essentially England + 1 + that weird other kinda Englishy bit to the West + that bit over the water.

To think it's otherwise is naive in the extreme.

That's what that banner references.

Can we all please move on from the banner now?

I preferred talking about the phantom 10 billion a year we'd have to fork out in the event of reunification.

James Brown

RobMc59 wrote: »

Matt,of course I'm familiar with Brits out-my wife is an Irish Catholic and I have no problem with the Irish wish for a UI-I don't see everything the same way as someone with a republican view but I'm not a million miles from it.

Well I'm surprised you don't know what England out or Brits out means. It's hard to take this line as genuine but I'm giving benefit of the doubt here. You now know what it means so you can see the outrage is uncalled for.

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You just responded?

The UK is essentially England + 1 + that weird other kinda Englishy bit to the West + that bit over the water.

To think it's otherwise is naive in the extreme.

That's what that banner references.

Can we all please move on from the banner now?

I preferred talking about the phantom 10 billion a year we'd have to fork out in the event of reunification.

Yes,there's no need to discuss it anymore-you've put us all straight on where we're all going wrong with your extensive knowledge of the UK although your desire to quickly move on from "the banner "is amusing as her embarrassing climb down and subsequent dip in SF popularity must be a major blow to your view of the world.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

Yes,there's no need to discuss it anymore-you've put us all straight on where we're all going wrong with your extensive knowledge of the UK although your desire to quickly move on from "the banner "is amusing as her embarrassing climb down and subsequent dip in SF popularity must be a major blow to your view of the world.

My only concern for SF in this world is making sure that people understand some of the nuances of the brand of Nationalism they might think they espouse. Because seemingly people continue to not "geddit".

The major overlap between me and SF is that we both wish for this country to be reunited.

When people such as yourself and other partitionists argue against that I will argue back as that's the point of the forum, the same when people think that SF's 7 votes would carry any HOC vote.

Having only ever given them a preference twice, both at the expense of a FF candidate in my constituency for a GE and in a Presidential election, I'm not exactly a lily-wearing "Brits Out" kinda guy.

Continuing your bizarre offence or trying to talk around the definition of what the SF president stood behind in a parade, is exhausting.

FrancieBrady

Interesting results from the rest of the UK.

"When Scotland voted on whether to become independent in 2014, there was a clear majority among the public in the rest of the UK that hoped it would choose to stay.

It is trends like these that should be making unionists think of the future, because it will factor into how they are treated.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0403/1040434-survey-northern-ireland-republic/?fbclid=IwAR0lgro6Qpub1djqKR5kZmM3lEr_lU-dL_HCVXwpBaR1i2D4LEbfFmFCAy0

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There are people in NI that don't know SF want England/Britain out of Ireland? You really don't know the country much.

Now she's attacking the Irish government on the health crisis in Ireland-she really is a liability!
She's a loose cannon in the trump mould-what's she going to come out with next!

ancapailldorcha

Drivel deleted. No more please.

James Brown

RobMc59 wrote: »

Now she's attacking the Irish government on the health crisis in Ireland-she really is a liability!
She's a loose cannon in the trump mould-what's she going to come out with next!

Do you find an opposition politician calling out the government on the 'health crisis' odd?
Equating it to Trump is very strange. Can you elaborate?

riffmongous

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Interesting results from the rest of the UK.



It is trends like these that should be making unionists think of the future, because it will factor into how they are treated.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0403/1040434-survey-northern-ireland-republic/?fbclid=IwAR0lgro6Qpub1djqKR5kZmM3lEr_lU-dL_HCVXwpBaR1i2D4LEbfFmFCAy0

It is amusing watching them trying to spin this as a positive, 'well at least it's more than want us to join the Republic', I think I read someone even describe it as 'a clear majority'

BluePlanet

I'm surprised nobody has posted this yet.

The British government’s understanding of the Good Friday Agreement has been questioned amid claims Irish citizens living in the north may not be allowed to vote in a future Irish unity referendum.

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/04/05/news/irish-citizens-in-north-may-not-be-allowed-to-vote-in-unity-poll-1590881/

I think this is kite-flying of British Secretary of State Karen Bradley.
It does have some parallels with the Emma DeSouza case.
It appears Britian are not keeping to the GFA.

In the DeSouza case they are saying that anyone born in NI is automatically British, unless they renounce.
They are not providing equal standing to people that identify as Irish or both.

I don't know how many people actually renouce their British citizenship, but probably some do.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Interesting results from the rest of the UK.



It is trends like these that should be making unionists think of the future, because it will factor into how they are treated.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0403/1040434-survey-northern-ireland-republic/?fbclid=IwAR0lgro6Qpub1djqKR5kZmM3lEr_lU-dL_HCVXwpBaR1i2D4LEbfFmFCAy0

From that article:

Conservatives are most likely to hope that Northern Ireland would vote to stay in the UK: 49% of those who would currently vote Conservative say they would prefer Northern Ireland to vote to stay, compared to 34% of Labour supporters and 27% of Liberal Democrats.

I wonder how true even that is now that senior Eurosceptic Tories in the ERG have come out in the past week to say they're essentially going to throw the DUP under the bus because they're a major cause of Brexit being stopped?

The DUP have played this awfully. They have completely backed the wrong horse by aligning themselves with hardline English nationalists who are increasingly not even UK unionists in name. What an irony, though, that they are now the biggest impediment to the type of post-Brexit state their formerly staunchest allies in the Conservative and not-so-Unionist party want in 2019.

Who are the external allies of Unionists in NI now?

downcow

Quote: FrancieBrady
Interesting results from the rest of the UK.



It is trends like these that should be making unionists think of the future, because it will factor into how they are treated.

https://www.rte.ie/new...pBaR1i2D4LEbfFmFCAy0

riffmongous wrote: »

It is amusing watching them trying to spin this as a positive, 'well at least it's more than want us to join the Republic', I think I read someone even describe it as 'a clear majority'

I can’t believe you are accusing unionists of spinning this one. Ipsos who carried out the poll state that over a third of those on mainland want NI to remain in UK, twice as many as want NI to leave.
Rte spin a figure we’ll over a third to ‘barely a third’, and a figure wishing NI to leave of well under a fifth into a categoric statement “a fifth wish NI to leave uk’ ...and you and francie take it hook line and sinker.
The actual story from Ipsos is positive. Their story is that twice as many brits want NI to stay in UK as want it to leave. I am very pleasantly surprised those figures given the problems they have had to endure because of us over the past 40 years and the hassle the border is creating them in trying to solve the brexit issue.
RTÉ are a joke sometimes in their one sided approach to stories

zapitastas

downcow wrote: »

Quote: FrancieBrady
Interesting results from the rest of the UK.



It is trends like these that should be making unionists think of the future, because it will factor into how they are treated.

https://www.rte.ie/new...pBaR1i2D4LEbfFmFCAy0



I can’t believe you are accusing unionists of spinning this one. Ipsos who carried out the poll state that over a third of those on mainland want NI to remain in UK, twice as many as want NI to leave.
Rte spin a figure we’ll over a third to ‘barely a third’, and a figure wishing NI to leave of well under a fifth into a categoric statement “a fifth wish NI to leave uk’ ...and you and francie take it hook line and sinker.
The actual story from Ipsos is positive. Their story is that twice as many brits want NI to stay in UK as want it to leave. I am very pleasantly surprised those figures given the problems they have had to endure because of us over the past 40 years and the hassle the border is creating them in trying to solve the brexit issue.
RTÉ are a joke sometimes in their one sided approach to stories

As a unionist, if you are taking a positive from that poll, you are either completely delusional or extremely optimistic to the point of being delusional

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Quote: FrancieBrady
Interesting results from the rest of the UK.



It is trends like these that should be making unionists think of the future, because it will factor into how they are treated.

https://www.rte.ie/new...pBaR1i2D4LEbfFmFCAy0



I can’t believe you are accusing unionists of spinning this one. Ipsos who carried out the poll state that over a third of those on mainland want NI to remain in UK, twice as many as want NI to leave.
Rte spin a figure we’ll over a third to ‘barely a third’, and a figure wishing NI to leave of well under a fifth into a categoric statement “a fifth wish NI to leave uk’ ...and you and francie take it hook line and sinker.
The actual story from Ipsos is positive. Their story is that twice as many brits want NI to stay in UK as want it to leave. I am very pleasantly surprised those figures given the problems they have had to endure because of us over the past 40 years and the hassle the border is creating them in trying to solve the brexit issue.
RTÉ are a joke sometimes in their one sided approach to stories

That's funny, your OWN Belfast Telegraph uses almost the exact same terminology.



https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/survey-only-third-of-britons-want-northern-ireland-to-stay-in-uk-brexit-pressure-on-union-37979514.html

Barely a third of the public in Great Britain hope Northern Ireland would vote to remain in the UK, new research showed.

Her's another UK paper's interpretation.



https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/gb-public-gives-views-on-northern-ireland-s-place-in-the-union-1-8876901

downcow

downcow wrote: »

Quote: FrancieBrady
Interesting results from the rest of the UK.



It is trends like these that should be making unionists think of the future, because it will factor into how they are treated.

https://www.rte.ie/new...pBaR1i2D4LEbfFmFCAy0



I can’t believe you are accusing unionists of spinning this one. Ipsos who carried out the poll state that over a third of those on mainland want NI to remain in UK, twice as many as want NI to leave.
Rte spin a figure we’ll over a third to ‘barely a third’, and a figure wishing NI to leave of well under a fifth into a categoric statement “a fifth wish NI to leave uk’ ...and you and francie take it hook line and sinker.
The actual story from Ipsos is positive. Their story is that twice as many brits want NI to stay in UK as want it to leave. I am very pleasantly surprised those figures given the problems they have had to endure because of us over the past 40 years and the hassle the border is creating them in trying to solve the brexit issue.
RTÉ are a joke sometimes in their one sided approach to stories

In that particular poll, 45% not caring about it would suggest that they'd be fine if it happened.

Actively wanting it to happen, and having little regard for it are quite similar in my opinion. I know all my English friends don't care, and most of my friends are from Great Britain.


The fact remains that a minority in GB "want" Northern Ireland.

ancapailldorcha

In my experience, your average Englishman/woman is barely aware of the Union. They're often keen to ask me questions about it but their knowledge of the subject is utterly dire. We've gone from that state of affairs to one where the DUP have fundamentally undermined the Union by presenting Ulster Unionism as being thoroughly toxic, bigoted and above compromise. Now we've gone from apathy and indifference to revulsion towards the DUP and Ulster Unionism. Anyone from a relatively soft Brexiter to a rabid Remainer now has great reason to despise the DUP and question the practicality and utility of the Union.

Regardless of whether we actually leave the EU or not, expect a lot of troubling questions for Ulster Unionists from all sides. Jeremy Corbyn is likely to be warming towards a Border Poll while the fanatical Brexiters will ditch NI once they find a suitable pretense if the DUP continue to get in the way. The way to preserve the Union was staying in but the DUP's congenital hatred and bigotry got in the way of any sort of rational debate. As a moderate Unionist myself, even I find myself sympathising with the Republican side here. NI voted remain and while the UK as a whole did vote to leave, no attempt at compromise has been made and the DUP has ignored the 55% of NI voters. Probably most of the 45% as well to be honest.

"Ulster says no" is a mantra the English might finally be ready to do away with.

Imagine a world where the referendum only passed if the four separate countries voted for it.

The talk of the EU being undemocratic wears thin when 27 countries are given a voice, but the UK's union is just about which country has the biggest population. The wants and needs of NI, Scotland, and Wales, should not be decided by a significantly larger English voting base.

I'm talking in general. Not just Brexit which Wales voted for. Not one of my British friends say they're British. They're Scottish, Welsh, or English. Don't have any Northern Irish friends as it happens.


If sixty million people moved to Northern Ireland, would England be happy their voice was being matched by it? I highly doubt it. Some "union" that is.

FrancieBrady

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

In my experience, your average Englishman/woman is barely aware of the Union. They're often keen to ask me questions about it but their knowledge of the subject is utterly dire. We've gone from that state of affairs to one where the DUP have fundamentally undermined the Union by presenting Ulster Unionism as being thoroughly toxic, bigoted and above compromise. Now we've gone from apathy and indifference to revulsion towards the DUP and Ulster Unionism. Anyone from a relatively soft Brexiter to a rabid Remainer now has great reason to despise the DUP and question the practicality and utility of the Union.

Regardless of whether we actually leave the EU or not, expect a lot of troubling questions for Ulster Unionists from all sides. Jeremy Corbyn is likely to be warming towards a Border Poll while the fanatical Brexiters will ditch NI once they find a suitable pretense if the DUP continue to get in the way. The way to preserve the Union was staying in but the DUP's congenital hatred and bigotry got in the way of any sort of rational debate. As a moderate Unionist myself, even I find myself sympathising with the Republican side here. NI voted remain and while the UK as a whole did vote to leave, no attempt at compromise has been made and the DUP has ignored the 55% of NI voters. Probably most of the 45% as well to be honest.

"Ulster says no" is a mantra the English might finally be ready to do away with.

The last step, as it were, is for the UK to agree a deal with the EU, after the long divisive and toxic process we have all watched for the last 3 years, and the DUP to bring down the government.

Have they backed themselves into a corner enough to do that? I think they have and they will be stupid enough to do it.

jm08

Bob Fisk has an interesting take on Brexiteers and their similarities to Loyalists in NI.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/robert-fisk-lesson-from-history-archbrexiteers-echo-loyalist-zealots-who-fuelled-ulster-terror-37988240.html