Border Poll discussion

jm08

RTE1s The Business Programme is discussing a united Ireland this morning and whether we can afford it. Discussion started at 10.15.

downcow

My point is the spin that is going on to try and convince yourselves the union is over.
Would someone honestly address the point. Across most of the media 36% is referred to as “barley a third” and 18% is referred to as “a fifth”. ????
Is that spin or not?
And of course you should consider why you feel the need to spin the facts?

And now we have a poster telling us that all the people who said ‘I don’t mind’ actually meant ‘I want ni to leave’

You are all making my point. The dup have pissed off the UK public for two years and the ira bombed them for 30 and there are still twice as many wanting NI to stay. That’s remarkable. 2 to 1 want NI, that is wildly higher than I would have expected given that we have to rely on dup and sf to represent us

I don’t have much time for polls but especially when people spin them to get the answer they’d like.

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

The actual story from Ipsos is positive. Their story is that twice as many brits want NI to stay in UK as want it to leave. I am very pleasantly surprised those figures given the problems they have had to endure because of us over the past 40 years and the hassle the border is creating them in trying to solve the brexit issue.
RTare a joke sometimes in their one sided approach to stories

Positive?

That's some optimism there, it's akin to a passenger on the Titanic see the iceberg they're about to smash into and proclaim "sure at least it's not going to smash into my side of the ship".

The DUP who lack the political cunning and foresight, because of their eternal blinded by hate have sold Ulster unionists up the swanny.

Britain doesn't give a fig for unionists in the six counties, they'll always be viewed as Paddy's from across the water. They'll scuttle the north as soon as they can possibly do so, and the urgency to do so has been brought forward immensely by, ironically enough, the DUP.

This is the reality.

downcow

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Positive?

That's some optimism there, it's akin to a passenger on the Titanic see the iceberg they're about to smash into and proclaim "sure at least it's not going to smash into my side of the ship".

The DUP who lack the political cunning and foresight, because of their eternal blinded by hate have sold Ulster unionists up the swanny.

Britain doesn't give a fig for unionists in the six counties, they'll always be viewed as Paddy's from across the water. They'll scuttle the north as soon as they can possibly do so, and the urgency to do so has been brought forward immensely by, ironically enough, the DUP.

This is the reality.

So the poll is nonsense Johnny? I probably agree to some extent with you because I find it hard to believe that twice as many want to keep us as want rid of us.
Mind you the gfa means they can’t change it even if 99% wanted rid of us. Thanks to the foresight of Tony blair and Gerry Adams we are safely tucked up in the union while the majority in NI wish and there is little chance of that changing in our children’s lifetimes

RobMc59

To the majority of mainland UK people the Union is the default situation regardless of political or religious persuasion and isn't a matter for discussion and the prospect of Scotland or NI leaving the Union has only come to prominence there since the Scottish referendum and the brexit situation.The break up of the UK would be viewed with alarm by the average UK citizen imo..

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

Imagine a world where the referendum only passed if the four separate countries voted for it.

The talk of the EU being undemocratic wears thin when 27 countries are given a voice, but the UK's union is just about which country has the biggest population. The wants and needs of NI, Scotland, and Wales, should not be decided by a significantly larger English voting base.

I'm talking in general. Not just Brexit which Wales voted for. Not one of my British friends say they're British. They're Scottish, Welsh, or English. Don't have any Northern Irish friends as it happens.


If sixty million people moved to Northern Ireland, would England be happy their voice was being matched by it? I highly doubt it. Some "union" that is.

Aye but this is the sort of forethought that the likes of Nick Clegg tried to impress upon Cameron to no avail. Even Rees-Mogg's dual referendum idea would have been reasonable in hindsight.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The last step, as it were, is for the UK to agree a deal with the EU, after the long divisive and toxic process we have all watched for the last 3 years, and the DUP to bring down the government.

Have they backed themselves into a corner enough to do that? I think they have and they will be stupid enough to do it.

This is a big if. Even if they don't bring down the government, they've made NI relevant in a very bad way to mainstream British politics. Unless they display a level of political cunning savvy hitherto unknown then there is a big risk of NI rejoining the Republic.

RobMc59 wrote: »

To the majority of mainland UK people the Union is the default situation regardless of political or religious persuasion and isn't a matter for discussion and the prospect of Scotland or NI leaving the Union has only come to prominence there since the Scottish referendum and the brexit situation.The break up of the UK would be viewed with alarm by the average UK citizen imo..

Why, exactly? What is this based on? Scotland is being dragged out of the EU against its will despite having three times more MP's than the DUP. Northern Ireland is being dragged out as well.

It's this idea that created the electoral college in the US, and while it's under fire because of Trump, there is logic to less populated regions having a higher per-capita say in things. The UK is a much more stark example of this difference in populations.

Something needs to change. It goes against what many in this forum have said before about the US, but the UK would benefit from sort of weighting system imo.

downcow

This is a big if. Even if they don't bring down the government, they've made NI relevant in a very bad way to mainstream British politics. Unless they display a level of political cunning savvy hitherto unknown then there is a big risk of NI rejoining the Republic.



Why, exactly? What is this based on? Scotland is being dragged out of the EU against its will despite having three times more MP's than the DUP. Northern Ireland is being dragged out as well.[/quote]

I don’t understand this dragged out stuff.
One minute posters are complaining about the tail wagging the dog re NI current influence in hoc, but then also say that if 1.5m in NI voted to remain in Eu that the UK should have had to remain.
We are part of the UK and should abide by a UK wide vote. To suggest otherwise would suggest that the one county in roi that voted against changing abortion should have blocked.

You need to remember UK is the UN recognised nation. It is an entirely different thing than Eu which is an arrangement between a group of nations.

And before people try to point to various different arrangements across the regions re Scottish laws, equal marriage, welsh language, etc they are agreed developed matters. I might not like that equal marriage is blocked in NI but unfortunately it is devolved

Farawayhome

RobMc59 wrote: »

To the majority of mainland UK people the Union is the default situation regardless of political or religious persuasion and isn't a matter for discussion and the prospect of Scotland or NI leaving the Union has only come to prominence there since the Scottish referendum and the brexit situation.The break up of the UK would be viewed with alarm by the average UK citizen imo..

Do the majority of UK citizens have any shame or embarrassment in how their government and armed forces treated Irish people in the recent and not so recent past?

ancapailldorcha

downcow wrote: »

I don’t understand this dragged out stuff.
One minute posters are complaining about the tail wagging the dog re NI current influence in hoc, but then also say that if 1.5m in NI voted to remain in Eu that the UK should have had to remain.
We are part of the UK and should abide by a UK wide vote. To suggest otherwise would suggest that the one county in roi that voted against changing abortion should have blocked.

You need to remember UK is the UN recognised nation. It is an entirely different thing than Eu which is an arrangement between a group of nations.

And before people try to point to various different arrangements across the regions re Scottish laws, equal marriage, welsh language, etc they are agreed developed matters. I might not like that equal marriage is blocked in NI but unfortunately it is devolved

I never said the UK should remain on the basis of the NI and Scotland vote results in 2016 and you know it.

I said that it would undermine the union if the will of two countries was followed while not even trying to reach a consensus with all four. The UK is leaving but if it continues on its current course it will undermine the union. Nicola Sturgeon is far and away the best party leader in the UK at the moment while Irish unification would neatly avoid the border issue and let the UK leave with no deal.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I don’t understand this dragged out stuff.
One minute posters are complaining about the tail wagging the dog re NI current influence in hoc, but then also say that if 1.5m in NI voted to remain in Eu that the UK should have had to remain.
We are part of the UK and should abide by a UK wide vote. To suggest otherwise would suggest that the one county in roi that voted against changing abortion should have blocked.

You need to remember UK is the UN recognised nation. It is an entirely different thing than Eu which is an arrangement between a group of nations.

And before people try to point to various different arrangements across the regions re Scottish laws, equal marriage, welsh language, etc they are agreed developed matters. I might not like that equal marriage is blocked in NI but unfortunately it is devolved

You are, like so many, trying to have your cake and eat it.

The UK, in the form of the elected government, agreed to the backstop and the WA. But the DUP and others have decided that in this instance, NI is NOT going to do what the 'UK' wishes to do.

downcow

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's this idea that created the electoral college in the US, and while it's under fire because of Trump, there is logic to less populated regions having a higher per-capita say in things. The UK is a much more stark example of this difference in populations.

Something needs to change. It goes against what many in this forum have said before about the US, but the UK would benefit from sort of weighting system imo.

I disagree completely (and that is as someone living in the smallest part). Could there be an alterior motive from some. That would really piss the bigger nations of if my vote was worth two votes. The civil rights in NI were supposed to be about 1 person 1 vote and the constituencies are reviewed to ensure equal influence wherever you live.
Mind you I’m just thinking. Do those who want greater influence for the smaller regions, will that be on offer in you new Ireland ie will NI have more influence per capita than roi?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are, like so many, trying to have your cake and eat it.

The UK, in the form of the elected government, agreed to the backstop and the WA. But the DUP and others have decided that in this instance, NI is NOT going to do what the 'UK' wishes to do.

My point had zero to do with brexit - there is another thread for that.
Cake and eat it seems to refer to those who would like Scotland to have exaggerated influence in UK but if the was a UI would not afford the same to NI

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

My point had zero to do with brexit - there is another thread for that.
Cake and eat it seems to refer to those who would like Scotland to have exaggerated influence in UK but if the was a UI would not afford the same to NI

How can it have zero to do with Brexit, when what is going on with Brexit, completely undermines your point?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How can it have zero to do with Brexit, when what is going on with Brexit, completely undermines your point?

How exactly does it undermine my point that we belong to the UK and should abide by a UK wide vote. Surely Brexit is a case and point

But since this thread is about UI, can you tell me if a UI scenario will you afford NI special powers to block decisions in the way you are currently proposing for Scotland? It would seem to follow but maybe I am missing something

downcow

downcow wrote: »

I disagree completely (and that is as someone living in the smallest part). Could there be an alterior motive from some. That would really piss the bigger nations of if my vote was worth two votes. The civil rights in NI were supposed to be about 1 person 1 vote and the constituencies are reviewed to ensure equal influence wherever you live.
Mind you I’m just thinking. Do those who want greater influence for the smaller regions, will that be on offer in you new Ireland ie will NI have more influence per capita than roi?

No, because it would be a United Ireland. One country.

My point isn't really about a United Ireland. I don't even want that. I was just offering an opinion on the whole idea of less populous regions having a more powerful say.


Back to Brexit; The worst affected part of the UK as a result of it voted against it. It is comical to hear arguments of the EU being undemocratic after seeing a part of Belgium wreck a Canada trade deal. A small small part said "no" and it was respected. NI said "no" and no one cares. England decides your tack.

downcow

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No, because it would be a United Ireland. One country.

My point isn't really about a United Ireland. I don't even want that. I was just offering an opinion on the whole idea of less populous regions having a more powerful say.


Back to Brexit; The worst affected part of the UK as a result of it voted against it. It is comical to hear arguments of the EU being undemocratic after seeing a part of Belgium wreck a Canada trade deal. A small small part said "no" and it was respected. NI said "no" and no one cares. England decides your tack.

Well in my thinking that is pretty undemocratic ie 490 million members of a club wanting something and 10million members blocking it. But I have to accept that as a current Eu member as that is the way the club runs.
I am not going to be drawn into a brexit discussion anymore. There is a brexit thread which seems to contain 99.99% remainers and I am staying away as I Feel my views are upsetting them. So I suggest you go over there with your brexit points and I can pretty much assure you you’ll get unanimous agreement for your position
I’m sticking with UI discussion here

downcow

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No, because it would be a United Ireland. One country.

The clue is in the name United Kingdom

It seems logical to me you would want to afford the same weighted power to NI in UI as you are currently proposing for Scotland in UK ??

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

How exactly does it undermine my point that we belong to the UK and should abide by a UK wide vote. Surely Brexit is a case and point

But since this thread is about UI, can you tell me if a UI scenario will you afford NI special powers to block decisions in the way you are currently proposing for Scotland? It would seem to follow but maybe I am missing something

I'm not proposing anything for Scotland and you still haven't squared the circle I asked you about.

If NI has to follow the UK, why are the DUP blocking what the UK have agreed?

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Aye but this is the sort of forethought that the likes of Nick Clegg tried to impress upon Cameron to no avail. Even Rees-Mogg's dual referendum idea would have been reasonable in hindsight.



This is a big if. Even if they don't bring down the government, they've made NI relevant in a very bad way to mainstream British politics. Unless they display a level of political cunning savvy hitherto unknown then there is a big risk of NI rejoining the Republic.



Why, exactly? What is this based on? Scotland is being dragged out of the EU against its will despite having three times more MP's than the DUP. Northern Ireland is being dragged out as well.

The whole brexit thing has brought it home to moderate people in the UK how unfair the UK political system is-ie:the wishes of Scotland and NI to remain in the EU has been ignored,as pointed out by other posters,the referendum result should have been the sum total of the opinion of the WHOLE of the UK .
The DUP is viewed as the most vocal party in NI by the British public and it`s policies are only examined in detail by those with an interest in Irish/NI affairs.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'm not proposing anything for Scotland and you still haven't squared the circle I asked you about.

If NI has to follow the UK, why are the DUP blocking what the UK have agreed?

Because they are a political party fully entitled to use their seats to achieve what the feel is in the best interests of the UK In general and their constituents in particular.
Which bit of these politics do you not understand.
Every political party uses its mandate as it sees fit. I really don’t understand you’re question

RobMc59

Farawayhome wrote: »

Do the majority of UK citizens have any shame or embarrassment in how their government and armed forces treated Irish people in the recent and not so recent past?

History in UK schools obviously deals with the British Empire but it isn't viewed in a bad light.As regards Ireland people are ignorant of things that have happened in the past.The recent developments around bloody sunday are perhaps beginning to open people's eyes.
As a child growing up I remember Bernadette Devlin on the news,she was painted in a very negative light by the UK media,it's only later when i looked into it myself, I found what she had said to be very reasonable.

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

Well in my thinking that is pretty undemocratic ie 490 million members of a club wanting something and 10million members blocking it. But I have to accept that as a current Eu member as that is the way the club runs.
I am not going to be drawn into a brexit discussion anymore. There is a brexit thread which seems to contain 99.99% remainers and I am staying away as I Feel my views are upsetting them. So I suggest you go over there with your brexit points and I can pretty much assure you you’ll get unanimous agreement for your position
I’m sticking with UI discussion here

What?

Who's blocking what now?

downcow

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

What?

Who's blocking what now?

I was replying to you saying Austria blocked the Eu from a Canada deal. Or at least that what I thought you were saying

downcow

RobMc59 wrote: »

History in UK schools obviously deals with the British Empire but it isn't viewed in a bad light.As regards Ireland people are ignorant of things that have happened in the past.The recent developments around bloody sunday are perhaps beginning to open people's eyes.
As a child growing up I remember Bernadette Devlin on the news,she was painted in a very negative light by the UK media,it's only later when i looked into it myself, I found what she had said to be very reasonable.

Bernadette transformed her position and I now hold her in a fair amount of respect. That does not absolve her of some horrendous condoning of violence in the 70s. One statement still sits with me “the only good British soldier is one going home in a box”. But fair play to her she has demonstrated courage lately that most of the men of violence have been unable to.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Because they are a political party fully entitled to use their seats to achieve what the feel is in the best interests of the UK In general and their constituents in particular.
Which bit of these politics do you not understand.
Every political party uses its mandate as it sees fit. I really don’t understand you’re question

And this happens to be the same politic party that is blocking rights legislation that the rest of these islands enjoy while bleating that they wish to be treated the same as the rest of the UK.

It is rank hypocrisy and they are rightfully getting hung out to dry on it.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And this happens to be the same politic party that is blocking rights legislation that the rest of these islands enjoy while bleating that they wish to be treated the same as the rest of the UK.

It is rank hypocrisy and they are rightfully getting hung out to dry on it.

You do realise that it’s solely because of the gfa that there is no equal marriage in NI
Whilst I completely disagree with the dup on this issue, whatever it may be, it’s not hypocrisy.
They are using the political system created under gfa to get what they want.

ancapailldorcha

downcow wrote: »

You do realise that it’s solely because of the gfa that there is no equal marriage in NI
Whilst I completely disagree with the dup on this issue, whatever it may be, it’s not hypocrisy.
They are using the political system created under gfa to get what they want.

That's an utter crock. It's down to the DUP. That's like blaming a car dealer for when a driver gets drunk and crashes. It's down to those voted it down plain and simple.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

You do realise that it’s solely because of the gfa that there is no equal marriage in NI
Whilst I completely disagree with the dup on this issue, whatever it may be, it’s not hypocrisy.
They are using the political system created under gfa to get what they want.

But if there was no GFA the same scenario would play out. Cos Unionism.

They are abusing the concept behind petitions of concern.

They were there to ensure that both sides had equitable treatment regardless.

It was a sop to unionists to at least let them have a theoretical veto. But it's being abused by the DUP.

Marriage equality and reproductive rights are not going to bring about a dilution of culture nor are they a threat to a culture nationalist or unionist. But the DUP don't care.

It's the epitome of rank unionist hypocrisy.

Also welcome back. I guess.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You do realise that it’s solely because of the gfa that there is no equal marriage in NI
Whilst I completely disagree with the dup on this issue, whatever it may be, it’s not hypocrisy.
They are using the political system created under gfa to get what they want.

Utter nonsense.

Church and state were separated a long time ago in the UK and the DUP insist on keeping them connected in the north.

It is rank hypocrisy. And nothing excuses it.