Border Poll discussion

downcow

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's an utter crock. It's down to the DUP. That's like blaming a car dealer for when a driver gets drunk and crashes. It's down to those voted it down plain and simple.

That is a rather aggressive response given that my post was entirely accurate. Those who want equal marriage in the assembly are in a significant majority and it would be passed but for the Petition of Concern system which exists. ie the gfa

Ironically this is an example of what happens when you weight voting to give minority groups extra strength. So again you are making my point that I believe votes should not be weighed whether that be Scots in UK or brits in Ireland

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Utter nonsense.

Church and state were separated a long time ago in the UK and the DUP insist on keeping them connected in the north.

It is rank hypocrisy. And nothing excuses it.

Guys you can scream all you like, the facts are clear. The petition of concern is allowing a minority to prevent the majority from giving rights to another minority. Fact

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Guys you can scream all you like, the facts are clear. The petition of concern is allowing a minority to prevent the majority from giving rights to another minority. Fact

That doesn't excuse anybody.

And it is hell rub it up them, because ultimately it has all spectacularly backfired on them and they have profoundly demonstrated to northern Irish Unionism just what is thought of their loyalty in Westminster and among the wider UK populace - which is not very much. Shafted by May a couple of days after spouting about the importance of the Union and shafted by the ERG, their new bedfellows and now the poll which shows what the UK electorate thinks.

The rest of us knew what the UK thought instinctively.

downcow

downcow wrote: »

Guys you can scream all you like, the facts are clear. The petition of concern is allowing a minority to prevent the majority from giving rights to another minority. Fact

This is a fairly clear explanation of how 18% can hold the rest to ransom on equal marriage
https://www.ilga-europe.org/blog/explainer-marriage-equality-and-northern-ireland

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That doesn't excuse anybody.

And it is hell rub it up them, because ultimately it has all spectacularly backfired on them and they have profoundly demonstrated to northern Irish Unionism just what is thought of their loyalty in Westminster and among the wider UK populace - which is not very much. Shafted by May a couple of days after spouting about the importance of the Union and shafted by the ERG, their new bedfellows and now the poll which shows what the UK electorate thinks.

The rest of us knew what the UK thought instinctively.

Francie I am not being drawn into a brexit discussion but have a wee look back a few posts at the poll that says twice as many brits want us to stay as go. That doesn’t sound to me what you describe. And as for coming back to bite I think that’s demonstrated by the shimmers supporting gfa and it being the very thing that’s scuppering their Irish language aspirations.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie I am not being drawn into a brexit discussion but have a wee look back a few posts at the poll that says twice as many brits want us to stay as go. That doesn’t sound to me what you describe. And as for coming back to bite I think that’s demonstrated by the shimmers supporting gfa and it being the very thing that’s scuppering their Irish language aspirations.

If you think the only benefit of the GFA is to achieve equal status for the Irish language, I don't really know what to say to match that level of thinking tbh.

If you think there is comfort in the shafting the DUP got by May and by the ERG, , it is no surprise that you see the results of that poll as a veritable triumph. :rolleyes:

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

In my experience, your average Englishman/woman is barely aware of the Union. They're often keen to ask me questions about it but their knowledge of the subject is utterly dire. We've gone from that state of affairs to one where the DUP have fundamentally undermined the Union by presenting Ulster Unionism as being thoroughly toxic, bigoted and above compromise. Now we've gone from apathy and indifference to revulsion towards the DUP and Ulster Unionism. Anyone from a relatively soft Brexiter to a rabid Remainer now has great reason to despise the DUP and question the practicality and utility of the Union.

Regardless of whether we actually leave the EU or not, expect a lot of troubling questions for Ulster Unionists from all sides. Jeremy Corbyn is likely to be warming towards a Border Poll while the fanatical Brexiters will ditch NI once they find a suitable pretense if the DUP continue to get in the way. The way to preserve the Union was staying in but the DUP's congenital hatred and bigotry got in the way of any sort of rational debate. As a moderate Unionist myself, even I find myself sympathising with the Republican side here. NI voted remain and while the UK as a whole did vote to leave, no attempt at compromise has been made and the DUP has ignored the 55% of NI voters. Probably most of the 45% as well to be honest.

"Ulster says no" is a mantra the English might finally be ready to do away with.

I'm still a bit confused about people from Ireland still wanting to be part of the UK or apparently feeling more of an affiliation with the UK-I'm not saying that to criticise as the town in Donegal my family are from has a pipe band which I've seen marching with orange banners and sashes-does this ever cause friction?

downcow

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm still a bit confused about people from Ireland still wanting to be part of the UK or apparently feeling more of an affiliation with the UK-I'm not saying that to criticise as the town in Donegal my family are from has a pipe band which I've seen marching with orange banners and sashes-does this ever cause friction?

No significant friction as I understand. My family is also from Donegal
There is a theory in peace work that when a minority is very small then the majority don’t see them as any threat and even offer them some patronising crumbs of importance/protection/etc. I think the Donegal folk are very accommodating to their Orange neighbours.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

No significant friction as I understand. My family is also from Donegal
There is a theory in peace work that when a minority is very small then the majority don’t see them as any threat and even offer them some patronising crumbs of importance/protection/etc. I think the Donegal folk are very accommodating to their Orange neighbours.

There is also the very important fact that the Orange parade is non triumphalist nor expresses any bigotry in Donegal.

Nobody has an issue with it when it behaves. It should be a lesson for the OO and Unionism.

ancapailldorcha

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is also the very important fact that the Orange parade is non triumphalist nor expresses any bigotry in Donegal.

Nobody has an issue with it when it behaves. It should be a lesson for the OO and Unionism.

Very true. The 12th of July Parade at Rossnowlagh always felt more like a day out for the family and putting on your best clothes and banners than anything remotely political.

Charles Babbage

The kind of flute band that stops outside Catholic churches or bars in Belfast are never invited to Rossknowlagh.

downcow

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Very true. The 12th of July Parade at Rossnowlagh always felt more like a day out for the family and putting on your best clothes and banners than anything remotely political.

Well now my local lodge goes to Rossnowlagh to parade but they have been prevented from parading their home town for decades. So it is more complex than the type of lodge/band. And the average 12th is a day out with your family but we have unsavoury sorts in sf stirring stuff up. And we have a isolated few of unsavoury sorts also on parade.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is also the very important fact that the Orange parade is non triumphalist nor expresses any bigotry in Donegal.

Nobody has an issue with it when it behaves. It should be a lesson for the OO and Unionism.

Francie I live in a village with the most benign lodge and band you could ever imagine. Indeed for decades they have been running cross community events to raise money for catholic neighbours in distress. They have been prevented for parading with religious music only. So don’t anyone be fooled that the issue around parading is about behaviour. Of course there are isolated evedence of bands behaving disgracefully and blatantly sectarian. But In my village the issue is that the shinners don’t want a prod about the place.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie I live in a village with the most benign lodge and band you could ever imagine. Indeed for decades they have been running cross community events to raise money for catholic neighbours in distress. They have been prevented for parading with religious music only. So don’t anyone be fooled that the issue around parading is about behaviour. Of course there are isolated evedence of bands behaving disgracefully and blatantly sectarian. But I my village the issue is that the shinners don’t want a prod about the place.

You would have to give more detail. The parades commission usually act if there is a perceived problem. 'Not having a prod about the place' is not grounds.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You would have to give more detail. The parades commission usually act if there is a perceived problem. 'Not having a prod about the place' is not grounds.

It is absolutely grounds. Here is detail on another local town.
Downpatrick. The parade route wishes to skirt the edge of town on a main road to get access to the towns only loyalist estate. The houses on route were polled and only 3 had any problem whatsoever with parade passing. SDLP made a promise 25 years ago to the townspeople that no prod band would ever enter the town. The parades commission year after year bar the parade. Indeed the band have offered to simply parade within the loyalist estate and the answer is still no. So each year the parade to within half a mile of town to turn around and parade away again. Sad situation

votecounts

downcow wrote: »

It is absolutely grounds. Here is detail on another local town.
Downpatrick. The parade route wishes to skirt the edge of town on a main road to get access to the towns only loyalist estate. The houses on route were polled and only 3 had any problem whatsoever with parade passing. SDLP made a promise 25 years ago to the townspeople that no prod band would ever enter the town. The parades commission year after year bar the parade. Indeed the band have offered to simply parade within the loyalist estate and the answer is still no. So each year the parade to within half a mile of town to turn around and parade away again. Sad situation

Normal people would only parade where they were wanted and not to annoy catholics with their songs about king billy.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

It is absolutely grounds. Here is detail on another local town.
Downpatrick. The parade route wishes to skirt the edge of town on a main road to get access to the towns only loyalist estate. The houses on route were polled and only 3 had any problem whatsoever with parade passing. SDLP made a promise 25 years ago to the townspeople that no prod band would ever enter the town. The parades commission year after year bar the parade. Indeed the band have offered to simply parade within the loyalist estate and the answer is still no. So each year the parade to within half a mile of town to turn around and parade away again. Sad situation

I just read the Parades Commission report there and as suspected they have 'grounds' as they base their findings on the history of the behaviour on this parade and the likelihood of increasing tensions.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I just read the Parades Commission report there and as suspected they have 'grounds' as they base their findings on the history of the behaviour on this parade and the likelihood of increasing tensions.

I haven’t looked it up but any history was in the 1980s and when the parade went through the town centre. The parade voluntarily offered to go nowhere near the town and bar any bands that may have history of issues.
What may increase the tension is having s prod about the place

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

Francie I live in a village with the most benign lodge and band you could ever imagine. Indeed for decades they have been running cross community events to raise money for catholic neighbours in distress. They have been prevented for parading with religious music only. So don’t anyone be fooled that the issue around parading is about behaviour. Of course there are isolated evedence of bands behaving disgracefully and blatantly sectarian. But In my village the issue is that the shinners don’t want a prod about the place.

How benign?

Like, does the lodge break orange order protocol and permit its members to marry people from Roman Catholic backgrounds?

downcow

votecounts wrote: »

Normal people would only parade where they were wanted and not to annoy catholics with their songs about king billy.

Oh dear oh dear that is so 1980s

votecounts

downcow wrote: »

Oh dear oh dear that is so 1980s

Still true though. You only see the side you wanted and not the side that had people locked in their homes for days because these people wanted to march "the queens highway"

downcow

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

How benign?

Like, does the lodge break orange order protocol and permit its members to marry people from Roman Catholic backgrounds?

This is a good reminder on a UI thread of the attitudes our community would face in a UI. It’s fine for the Catholic Church to bar prods from communion. It’s fine for irfu to play an anthem that is an anathema to a section of their fans. It’s fine for st paddy’s day parades to wave tricolours and chant sectarian songs. It’s fine for RTÉ to play deangelos at prime time. It’s fine for Dublin to not allow ira victims gathering. It’s fine for roi politicians to stand behind racist banners. Etc. Etc. Etc. But dare the orange order believe their members must be of the reformed faith. ...and this is from someone who disagrees with them on this issue. But I hate hypocrisy

downcow

votecounts wrote: »

Still true though. You only see the side you wanted and not the side that had people locked in their homes for days because these people wanted to march "the queens highway"

What planet are you on. People locked in their homes for days???

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I haven’t looked it up but any history was in the 1980s and when the parade went through the town centre. The parade voluntarily offered to go nowhere near the town and bar any bands that may have history of issues.
What may increase the tension is having s prod about the place

The Commission has cause to believe that should the parade process the entirety of it's notified route there will be adverse effects on community relations and a potential for public disorder.

The Commission is to be congratulated imo.

votecounts

downcow wrote: »

What planet are you on. People locked in their homes for days???

Do you not remember Drumcee?
Ignorance is bliss

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Commission is to be congratulated imo.

Yes, if I was of your opinion then I would congratulate them as well

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Yes, if I was of your opinion then I would congratulate them as well

There is still plenty to do, but I think they have taken a lot of heat out of some of these parades. And they have successfully challenged the nonsense that there is some inalienable right to march where you are not wanted.

downcow

votecounts wrote: »

Do you not remember Drumcee?
Ignorance is bliss

Go on to google arial maps of drumcree Portadown. And note that the paraders were prevented from leaving drumcree church. Note where that is in in relation to the residents of drumcree and then come back on here and tell us why they would be locked in their homes.

downcow

I have to be squeaky clean so I won’t be commenting further on parading as it’s off thread. Mind you maybe there is a place for a parading thread as there is some serious misunderstanding of the issues

votecounts

The worst violence came in 1996, when the RUC agreed to the banned parade going ahead as leading loyalist Billy Wright, since assassinated, threatened to drive a digger filled with drums of petrol at police lines, and set them alight. His then fledgling group, the Loyalist Volunteer Force, also murdered a Catholic taxi-driver, Michael McGoldrick, 31.

There was mayhem in 1998, with crowds of 25,000 gathering nightly in the first week after the Orangemen were stopped, and 30 police officers injured in bomb attacks, four seriously. Violence spread throughout Northern Ireland, as it had done two years earlier.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/jul/01/northernireland.jamiewilson
Peaceful Bunch, 25000 gathering nightly would have you blocked in your home too