Border Poll discussion

downcow

I think it’s both funny and enlightening that Farawayhome and myself both referred to ethnic cleansing from very different standpoints before reading each others.

downcow

Farawayhome wrote: »

The facts back up that it was in fact the British side who targetted innocents and inflicted terror on the Nationalist community. Whether by British armed forces, loyalists, ruc or whoever was involved on the unionist side, they murdered over 1,000 innocent people. The vast, vast majority being innocent Nationalists.
So not only did the British side create a state that turned into a deeply unjust and sectarian one. They then quashed peaceful protests with extreme violence and proceeded to inflict misery on the Nationalist community with what can only be described as a mass murder campaign that lasted a few decades!

Farawayhome. Do you accept the ira carried out a sectarian bombing and murdering campaig against Protestants?
And do you accept that the city side in Derry and Fermanagh (to name a couple of areas) were to all intent and purpose ethnically cleansed?

Two simple questions and if it helps I can categorically state without reservation that loyalists done both of the above, just on a smaller scale and with much less community support

Farawayhome

downcow wrote: »

Farawayhome. Do you accept the ira carried out a sectarian bombing and murdering campaig against Protestants?
And do you accept that the city side in Derry and Fermanagh (to name a couple of areas) were to all intense and purpose ethnically cleansed?

Two simple questions and if it helps I can categorically state without reservation that loyalists done both of the above, just on a smaller scale and with much less community support

Loyalists, the ruc, the British armed forces were all on the same side. They supplied information, arms, even went on murderous missions together. This was all supported by the unionist community. The attempt in the recent past is to throw loyalists under the bus in order to distract from the murder campaign undertaken by the British security forces.
This is what the PIRA were fighting against. They were up against a foreign terrorist force who had vast experience in persecuting natives along with local terrorists who's only mission it seemed was to kill innocents. In the face of this, the PIRA did commit some horrible acts. This can never be justified. However, they did also stick to targetting military personnel and those involved in the war for the most part.
As I said, the same can't be said for the British side who targetted civilians for the most part. The facts back this up.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

This is one of the biggest blocks to true reconciliation ie this implication that somehow the ira were less sectarian and ruthless that loyalists and thereby somewhat honourable.

Less sectarian? You need to look at why they were sectarian in the first place. If you grow up in a sectarian state, the chances are very likely that you will be sectarian.

The ira was the most effective ethnic cleansing machine in Northern Ireland. There are endless towns like my own where the Protestants were driven out. It was well thought through. Kill a small number of innocent Protestants to put the fear in them all. Bomb all the Protestant businesses over and over again and call them economic targets. Put occasionall no warning bombs in Protestant streets. Burn down Protestant churches and schools. Prevent and display of unionist culture through getting parades banned. And back that up with late night weekend attacks on homes breaking windows, pushing human faeces and urine through letter boxes. Etc etc etc. All this was regular in my small town and it has resulted in the only Protestants now living in one small street on the edge of town an the surrounding conttyside.

Yet more catholics (1525) died than protestants (1250) from NI.

https://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/troubles/troubles_stats.html

downcow

Farawayhome wrote: »

Loyalists, the ruc, the British armed forces were all on the same side. They supplied information, arms, even went on murderous missions together. This was all supported by the unionist community. The attempt in the recent past is to throw loyalists under the bus in order to distract from the murder campaign undertaken by the British security forces.
This is what the PIRA were fighting against. They were up against a foreign terrorist force who had vast experience in persecuting natives along with local terrorists who's only mission it seemed was to kill innocents. In the face of this, the PIRA did commit some horrible acts. This can never be justified. However, they did also stick to targetting military personnel and those involved in the war for the most part.
As I said, the same can't be said for the British side who targetted civilians for the most part. The facts back this up.

You can spin all you like but the facts are there to be checked. Paramilitaries on both sides try to get their political wings elected - loyalists could only get a handful of votes while the shinners got 100s of thousands.

You are dilusional if you think the ira mainly targeted military. There is little point in me creating a endless list of sectarian murders and sectarian bombings. Let’s just pick one bombing and one murder as examples for your comment. Maybe just for you to confirm these had no other motive but to hurt and terrorise Protestants??
LaMon bombing
Murder of my neighbour William hennan (google it)
Both blatantly sectarian

Farawayhome

downcow wrote: »

You can spin all you like but the facts are there to be checked. Paramilitaries on both sides try to get their political wings elected - loyalists could only get a handful of votes while the shinners got 100s of thousands.

You are dilusional if you think the ira mainly targeted military. There is little point in me creating a endless list of sectarian murders and sectarian bombings. Let’s just pick one bombing and one murder as examples for your comment. Maybe just to confirm these had no other motive but to hurt and terrorise Protestants??
LaMon bombing
Murder of my neighbour William hennan (google it)
Both blatantly sectarian

Like I said, unionists are willing to throw loyalists under the bus in an attempt the British armed forces. They were in bed together, they fought side by side.

The facts back it up. The PIRA did commit some horrendous acts but they mainly targetted those active in the war. Some of the facts have been posted in the post before yours, check them out. It shows that the British side mainly targetted civilians.

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Do people reckon the North would vote for reunification in a Border Poll? I think the Republic has to have a referendum as well.

There doesn't seem much incentive at the moment but depending on what happens with brexit would have a bearing on that-would you agree?

downcow

Farawayhome wrote: »

Like I said, unionists are willing to throw loyalists under the bus in an attempt the British armed forces. They were in bed together, they fought side by side.

The facts back it up. The PIRA did commit some horrendous acts but they mainly targetted those active in the war. Some of the facts have been posted in the post before yours, check them out. It shows that the British side mainly targetted civilians.

I can’t ask you the question any more ways. You just don’t intend answering it
The ira killed over 600 civilians. It’s pretty offensive if you to suggest it was an occasional act.

As I say the list is so long it’s unpostable. But here is a challenge will easily call my bluff (or yours). Pick any random month in the 70s 80s (that’s 20 years) and I will show you republican dirty nasty sectarian attacks that happened that month. You can’t get fairer than that. You will agree if their sectarian attacks were occasional then I will have my bluff called.
Over to you Farawayhome home
...and I am aware you can hunt for a month somewhere where they didn’t perform sectarian attacks but I’ll take that risk as I feel their sectarian attacks were so consistent that I’ll not struggle

jm08

downcow wrote: »

You can spin all you like but the facts are there to be checked. Paramilitaries on both sides try to get their political wings elected - loyalists could only get a handful of votes while the shinners got 100s of thousands.

You are dilusional if you think the ira mainly targeted military. There is little point in me creating a endless list of sectarian murders and sectarian bombings. Let’s just pick one bombing and one murder as examples for your comment. Maybe just for you to confirm these had no other motive but to hurt and terrorise Protestants??
LaMon bombing
Murder of my neighbour William hennan (google it)
Both blatantly sectarian

He had been a member of the 'B' Specials, so I'm not sure you can claim that it was just a sectarian murder.

Farawayhome

downcow wrote: »

I can’t ask you the question any more ways. You just don’t intend answering it
The ira killed over 600 civilians. It’s pretty offensive if you to suggest it was an occasional act.

As I say the list is so long it’s unpostable. But here is a challenge will easily call my bluff (or yours). Pick any random month in the 70s 80s (that’s 20 years) and I will show you republican dirty nasty sectarian attacks that happened that month. You can’t get fairer than that. You will agree if their sectarian attacks were occasional then I will have my bluff called.
Over to you Farawayhome home
...and I am aware you can hunt for a month somewhere where they didn’t perform sectarian attacks but I’ll take that risk as I feel their sectarian attacks were so consistent that I’ll not struggle

I said they targetted military targets for the most part. The facts back that up. Over 1,000 of those killed by the PIRA were active participants in the war.

On the other hand, the British side killed over 1,000 innocents. If you go through month by month, you will see that this is all backed up. The facts are there for all to see.

trashcan

downcow wrote: »

You can spin all you like but the facts are there to be checked. Paramilitaries on both sides try to get their political wings elected - loyalists could only get a handful of votes while the shinners got 100s of thousands.

Not here to defend murder on either side, but your point here doesn't take account of the fact that the Unionist/Loyalist population had the whole apparatus of the British State behind them, so arguably they didn't feel the need to resort to support paramilitaries electorally for the most part, plus, the Reverand Ian and his DUP would have been hardline enough for the strongest Unionist I'd have thought. The same clearly couldn't be said for Nationalists/Republicans, which is why Sinn Fein ended up with more support than the SDLP. Not to mention the fact that Sinn Fein have only really destroyed the SDLP politically since the IRA ceasefire. Why do you suppose that is ? Perhaps the Nationalists aren't the bloodthirsty rabidly sectarian bunch you imagine ?

downcow

Farawayhome wrote: »

I said they targetted military targets for the most part. The facts back that up. Over 1,000 of those killed by the PIRA were active participants in the war.

On the other hand, the British side killed over 1,000 innocents. If you go through month by month, you will see that this is all backed up. The facts are there for all to see.

I can’t see any point in continuing to engage with you Farawayhome. I give you a great opportunity to give us any month in a 20 year period to demonstrate that the ira were not carrying out sectarian attacks on a very regular basis. You just keep trumping out vague thoughts of yours without any substance.
One month out of 240 months is all I am asking - you did say it was occasional didn’t you.
If you don’t respond wth a month then I will asssume you are confirming they carried out sectarian attacks consistently every month for 240 in a row.

RobMc59

Farawayhome wrote: »

Like I said, unionists are willing to throw loyalists under the bus in an attempt the British armed forces. They were in bed together, they fought side by side.

The facts back it up. The PIRA did commit some horrendous acts but they mainly targetted those active in the war. Some of the facts have been posted in the post before yours, check them out. It shows that the British side mainly targetted civilians.

You either condemn all terrorists or best to say nothing.Castigating one side whilst trying to justify the other is bizarre and unacceptable.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

He had been a member of the 'B' Specials, so I'm not sure you can claim that it was just a sectarian murder.

Jmo8 He was in the b specials but we are talking a very long time ago. I think probably in the 60s.
When the ira were accepting responsibility for the murder they sighted mistaken identity so either they didn’t know he was a b special or they thought it was far to obscure. They would have grasped at any excuse.
So it was either mistaken identity or sectarian. And I can assure you it wasn’t mistaken identity - this was the regular excuse when they took out a prod because he was a prod.
This was a small rural community and those sighted for the murder are local and knew him. They forced him to his knees and assinated him. No mistaken identity.
But the point is this is one of hundreds - a story the shinners want to rewrite

Farawayhome

downcow wrote: »

I can’t see any point in continuing to engage with you Farawayhome. I give you a great opportunity to give us any month in a 20 year period to demonstrate that the ira were not carrying out sectarian attacks on a very regular basis. You just keep trumping our vague thoughts of yours without any substance.
One month out of 240 months is all I am asking - you did say it was occasional didn’t you.
If you don’t respond wth a month then I will asssume you are confirming they carried out sectarian attacks consistently every month for 240 in a row.

You said occasional. I said they targetted those involved in the war for the most part. The facts back that up. Pick any month you want. You will see that it was in fact the British side who targetted civilians for the most part.

Farawayhome

RobMc59 wrote: »

You either condemn all terrorists or best to say nothing.Castigating one side whilst trying to justify the other is bizarre and unacceptable.

Showing how the PIRA came about is not unacceptable. Showing that the British side targetted civilians, for the most part, is not unacceptable. These are just facts.

downcow

Farawayhome wrote: »

You said occasional. I said they targetted those involved in the war for the most part. The facts back that up. Pick any month you want. You will see that it was in fact the British side who targetted civilians for the most part.

We’ll clarify what “for the most part means” and then I’ll know what you are saying.
I assume you are accepting that they carried out a series of sectarian attacks every month for those 240 in a row - how does that support your argument.

Farawayhome

downcow wrote: »

We’ll clarify what “for the most part means” and then I’ll know what you are saying.
I assume you are accepting that they carried out a series of sectarian attacks every month for those 240 in a row - how does that support your argument.

I mean the PIRA killed over 1,000 active participants in the war while the British side killed over 1,000 civilians. This shows clearly who was targetting innocents and who was not.

downcow

Farawayhome wrote: »

I mean the PIRA killed over 1,000 active participants in the war while the British side killed over 1,000 civilians. This shows clearly who was targetting innocents and who was not.

That is a ridiculous way to spin figures. Either tell us how many civilians both killed or how many active participants both killed or both stats but don’t so obviously spin when the figures don’t suit you.

I’ll try the question another way. Last attempt Could you confirm or deny these 3 simple statements
Republicans killed hundreds of people simply because the were protestan
Republicans planted hundreds of bombs in premises simply because they were owned by Protestants
Republicans out of no warning bombs in Protestant residential areas

Farawayhome

downcow wrote: »

That is a ridiculous way to spin figures. Either tell us how many civilians both killed or how many active participants both killed or both stats but don’t so obviously spin when the figures don’t suit you.

I’ll try the question another way. Last attempt Could you confirm or deny these 3 simple statements
Republicans killed hundreds of people simply because the were protestan
Republicans planted hundreds of bombs in premises simply because they were owned by Protestants
Republicans out of no warning bombs in Protestant residential areas

I've already said, the PIRA committed some horrendous acts. These can never be justified. You can't ignore the facts though. Let's be honest, it was a dirty war but of the two sides, clearly the PIRA fought cleaner.

downcow

Farawayhome wrote: »

I've already said, the PIRA committed some horrendous acts. These can never be justified. You can't ignore the facts though. Let's be honest, it was a dirty war but of the two sides, clearly the PIRA fought cleaner.

I didn’t think you would answer. No point an chasing any further for an answer. You have a fairly warped view of things here. I’m moving on.

Farawayhome

downcow wrote: »

I didn’t think you would answer. No point an chasing any further for an answer. You have a fairly warped view of things here. I’m moving on.

Well if you can't admit to the facts then there's nothing I can do for you. How can you ignore the atrocities committed by the British armed forces and loyalists? Republicans face up to atrocities committed by the PIRA, it's a major shame that unionists can't do similar for their side.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Jmo8 He was in the b specials but we are talking a very long time ago. I think probably in the 60s.
When the ira were accepting responsibility for the murder they sighted mistaken identity so either they didn’t know he was a b special or they thought it was far to obscure. They would have grasped at any excuse.
So it was either mistaken identity or sectarian. And I can assure you it wasn’t mistaken identity - this was the regular excuse when they took out a prod because he was a prod.
This was a small rural community and those sighted for the murder are local and knew him. They forced him to his knees and assinated him. No mistaken identity.
But the point is this is one of hundreds - a story the shinners want to rewrite

A news report of the killing at he time which says he had been a member of the 'B Special', so it was obviously common knowledge of his involvement.

The victim was identified as William Heenan, in his mid-50s and a widower. Police said Heenan had been a member of the all-Protestant 'B Special' reserve police force but had no security connections since the force was disbanded in 1970.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the killing and a police spokesman said it could have been a case of mistaken identity.


The outlawed Irish Republican Army has been targeting pro-British security personnel in its campaign to oust British rule from Northern Ireland and unite it with the Irish Republic.

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1985/05/03/Gunman-kills-man-in-Northern-Ireland/1034483940800/

Its nonsense to claim that he was murdered just because he was a protestant. If that is the case, why did they not murder his son?

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

A news report of the killing at he time which says he had been a member of the 'B Special', so it was obviously common knowledge of his involvement.



https://www.upi.com/Archives/1985/05/03/Gunman-kills-man-in-Northern-Ireland/1034483940800/

Its nonsense to claim that he was murdered just because he was a protestant. If that is the case, why did they not murder his son?

So what are you saying the reason was?

Charles Babbage

downcow wrote: »

That is a ridiculous way to spin figures. Either tell us how many civilians both killed or how many active participants both killed or both stats but don’t so obviously spin when the figures don’t suit you.

I’ll try the question another way. Last attempt Could you confirm or deny these 3 simple statements
Republicans killed hundreds of people simply because the were protestan
Republicans planted hundreds of bombs in premises simply because they were owned by Protestants
Republicans out of no warning bombs in Protestant residential areas

The British harassed hundreds of thousands of people just because they were Irish. The British beat thousands of people just because they were Irish. The British arrested thousands of people just because they were Irish. The British shot hundreds of people just because they were Irish.



And all of these Irish people living in their own country.

RobMc59

Farawayhome wrote: »

I've already said, the PIRA committed some horrendous acts. These can never be justified. You can't ignore the facts though. Let's be honest, it was a dirty war but of the two sides, clearly the PIRA fought cleaner.

That is ridiculous-to say the ira fought cleaner-no disrespect but it's difficult to take anything you say seriously.

downcow

Farawayhome wrote: »

Well if you can't admit to the facts then there's nothing I can do for you. How can you ignore the atrocities committed by the British armed forces and loyalists? Republicans face up to atrocities committed by the PIRA, it's a major shame that unionists can't do similar for their side.

I said I wasn’t responding again but you have sucked me in.
I simply can’t believe what you are saying. You must be trolling. I have continually accepted and condemned the killings committed by my side. Even posters that are on your side have challenged your one sided approach to condemnation.
I am not surprised about your position. I remember asking a sf MLA directly if kingsmill was sectarian and they said NO. You couldn’t make it up.

downcow

Charles Babbage wrote: »

The British harassed hundreds of thousands of people just because they were Irish. The British beat thousands of people just because they were Irish. The British arrested thousands of people just because they were Irish. The British shot hundreds of people just because they were Irish.



And all of these Irish people living in their own country.

Guys I am not the one in denial here. But I understand why yous take this line. A prominent republican told me in a conversation that to accept the killings were sectarian would demonise their volunteers.

Farawayhome

RobMc59 wrote: »

That is ridiculous-to say the ira fought cleaner-no disrespect but it's difficult to take anything you say seriously.

Well, it's not saying much. It was a nasty war but the facts back up what I'm saying. You can visit the Cain website if you wish. Are you aware that the British armed forces, loyalists etc killed over 1,000 civilians?

Farawayhome

downcow wrote: »

I said I wasn’t responding again but you have sucked me in.
I simply can’t believe what you are saying. You must be trolling. I have continually accepted and condemned the killings committed by my side. Even posters that are on your side have challenged you insides approach to condemnation.
I am not surprised about your position. I remember asking a sf MLA directly if kings mill was sectarian and they said NO. You couldn’t make it up.

You have not! You are taking the usual unionist position, you are throwing loyalists under the bus and defending the British armed forces.
I am not making up the figures I have posted, like I asked the previous poster, are you aware that the British side killed over 1,000 civilians?