Border Poll discussion

downcow

Farawayhome wrote: »

Well, it's not saying much. It was a nasty war but the facts back up what I'm saying. You can visit the Cain website if you wish. Are you aware that the British armed forces, loyalists etc killed over 1,000 civilians?

If an ira member was killed of active service he was a civilian (for compensation purposes). If a udr or Ruc member was killed off duty he was a member of the British forces.
The only time ira deaths were not declared as civilians is when the were killed in action. That seriously skews your figures even if the were correct

downcow

Farawayhome wrote: »

You have not! You are taking the usual unionist position, you are throwing loyalists under the bus and defending the British armed forces.
I am not making up the figures I have posted, like I asked the previous poster, are you aware that the British side killed over 1,000 civilians?

You know as well as I do that it is a nonsense to place army and loyalists on the same side. There is many examples of them killing each other on purpose And who do you think arrested tens of thousands of loyalists? Too many wholes in your history rewrite.

Farawayhome

downcow wrote: »

If an ira member was killed of active service he was a civilian (for compensation purposes). If a udr or Ruc member was killed off duty he was a member of the British forces.
The only time ira deaths were not declared as civilians is when the were killed in action. That seriously skews your figures even if the were correct

Ok, I see where you are coming from now. You are unaware of the facts. I will give you the link to the Cain website:

https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/

On this site, you can go to their database and you'll find different sections. Here you can find information on who died during the war, who was responsible and so forth. It's important that you educate yourself on this matter.

downcow

Farawayhome wrote: »

Ok, I see where you are coming from now. You are unaware of the facts. I will give you the link to the Cain website:

https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/

On this site, you can go to their database and you'll find different sections. Here you can find information on who died during the war, who was responsible and so forth. It's important that you educate yourself on this matter.

I am not going to lose any more energy on this. You haven’t given a straight answer to a single question I have asked which convinces me you know fine rightly what the truth is.
Over & out

Farawayhome

downcow wrote: »

You know as well as I do that it is a nonsense to place army and loyalists on the same side. There is many examples of them killing each other on purpose And who do you think arrested tens of thousands of loyalists? Too many wholes in your history rewrite.

As I've just pointed out in my last post. It's important that you educate yourself on this.

The Cain website will inform you that during the war, British security forces killed almost as many of their own members than of loyalists. Only 18. Loyalists only killed 14 members of the British security forces.
They killed 1,064 civilians.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Guys I am not the one in denial here. But I understand why yous take this line. A prominent republican told me in a conversation that to accept the killings were sectarian would demonise their volunteers.

So many people telling you stuff.

Or you hearing stuff said by SDLP men in the 80's and an entire agency of the state bases it's findings on what he said.

It's fantastic.

Farawayhome

downcow wrote: »

I am not going to lose any more energy on this. You haven’t given a straight answer to a single question I have asked which convinces me you know fine rightly what the truth is.
Over & out

This is what you claimed:

downcow wrote: »

If an ira member was killed of active service he was a civilian (for compensation purposes). If a udr or Ruc member was killed off duty he was a member of the British forces.
The only time ira deaths were not declared as civilians is when the were killed in action. That seriously skews your figures even if the were correct

I'm just showing you that you were wrong and I provided the link to show you where to find the figures. Are you claiming that the Cain site is wrong?
Look at the facts, I know they may be uncomfortable but knowing the truth is better than believing the lies you have been told.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

So what are you saying the reason was?

His association with security forces. From that news reports at the time, he/his family were followers of Rev Ian Paisley whose main aim was to incite hate and rabble rouse.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

His association with security forces. From that news reports at the time, he/his family were followers of Rev Ian Paisley whose main aim was to incite hate and rabble rouse.

Guys this shocking that yous are not able to accept the sectarianism of the ira. This man had left the b specials 20 years earlier and he had no connection whatsoever to Ian Paisley or the dup. Where is the evidence that he was a follower of the dup?
I just picked a neighbour. Let’s take a better known case - Kingsmill masacre What is the excuse for it other than blatant sectarianism??

blanch152

Farawayhome wrote: »

Of course, some of the actions of the PIRA were disgusting. They sunk to levels they shouldn't have had. They should have stuck to military targets and waged their war directly against what can only be described as British state terrorists. In fairness, for the most part they did this.
Unfortunately, the same can't be said for the British side. Their targeting of innocents is really shameful.

There was never any good reason for the activity of the IRA. Northern Ireland wasn't apartheid South Africa, neither was it Mao's China or Stalin's Russia, not to mention Pinochet's Chile or any other of a large number of examples.

The protection of child abusers, the kneecapping, the disappeared, the beatings, all things that they did to their own community, were beyond disgusting.

That is my opinion, and the opinion of an awful lot of ordinary decent people in the South of Ireland. Rewriting history to present the IRA as some benign modern-day Robin Hoods will not work for people like us.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Guys this shocking that yous are not able to accept the sectarianism of the ira.

Hard not to be sectarian if brought up in a sectarian state. Now, who created that?

This man had left the b specials 20 years earlier and he had no connection whatsoever to Ian Paisley or the dup. Where is the evidence that he was a follower of the dup?
I just picked a neighbour. Let’s take a better known case - Kingsmill masacre What is the excuse for it other than blatant sectarianism??

14 years previous. And he didn't leave. The Specials were disbanded. Are you suggesting that all should be forgiven and forgotten after 20 years. It would be interesting to see how that would go down in DUP land!

That newspaper report of the time mentioned that he/family members were followers of the ''protestant militant Ian Paisley.''

Kingsmills was retailiation for a murder the previous night. From what I recall there was also some involvement of British intelligence, so no, I don't think that was an effort at ethnic cleansing.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Guys this shocking that yous are not able to accept the sectarianism of the ira. This man had left the b specials 20 years earlier and he had no connection whatsoever to Ian Paisley or the dup. Where is the evidence that he was a follower of the dup?
I just picked a neighbour. Let’s take a better known case - Kingsmill masacre What is the excuse for it other than blatant sectarianism??

Freely admitted by the IRA from what I know.

There is no doubt that partition fermented sectarian division. How could it not?

Somebody here posted the killing of a neighbour of my own here and claimed the same thing. The truth is much more nuanced as he was supplying support to the army and RUC and had been warned to stop,
Like McConville, it is no justification for his killing as there is no justification for any of it. But let's not invent fables either.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

There was never any good reason for the activity of the IRA. Northern Ireland wasn't apartheid South Africa, neither was it Mao's China or Stalin's Russia, not to mention Pinochet's Chile or any other of a large number of examples.

The protection of child abusers, the kneecapping, the disappeared, the beatings, all things that they did to their own community, were beyond disgusting.

That is my opinion, and the opinion of an awful lot of ordinary decent people in the South of Ireland. Rewriting history to present the IRA as some benign modern-day Robin Hoods will not work for people like us.

How long were the partitionists in the south going to ignore what was going on?

Driven by the inequality and sectarian suppression foisted on them by partition, the people rose up (as they inevitably will) and the south, tacitly turned a blind eye and sided with the oppressors.
We were lucky it didn't descend into a bloodier mess. Now the partitionists want retribution for one side only.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

There was never any good reason for the activity of the IRA.

They were absolutely critical in preventing pogroms and incursions by the RUC/USC and in giving nationalist communities teeth. It's a shame the RUC wasn't a neutral police force instead of the Unionist militia it was and we might not have had the growth of Republican paramilitarism.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

There was never any good reason for the activity of the IRA. Northern Ireland wasn't apartheid South Africa, neither was it Mao's China or Stalin's Russia, not to mention Pinochet's Chile or any other of a large number of examples.

There were a lot of similarities with apartheid South Africa. Bloody Sunday was similar to the Sharpsville massacre for example.

The protection of child abusers, the kneecapping, the disappeared, the beatings, all things that they did to their own community, were beyond disgusting.

And the problem was ordinary people didn't have anyone to turn to. The State created the problems.

That is my opinion, and the opinion of an awful lot of ordinary decent people in the South of Ireland. Rewriting history to present the IRA as some benign modern-day Robin Hoods will not work for people like us.

I'd consider myself to be an ordinary, decent person in the ''South of Ireland" who lived through that period of history. I can remember how ordinary decent people in the ''South of Ireland'' were angry enough with what was happening in Northern Ireland to protest strongly (and burn down the British Embassy in Dublin). The people who are trying to remove all blame for their part of what happened in NI are not Sinn Fein.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Kingsmills was retailiation for a murder the previous night. From what I recall there was also some involvement of British intelligence, so no, I don't think that was an effort at ethnic cleansing.

Thank goodness you two guys are getting no support from others or I would be depressed.
This is shocking stuff you are making excuses for.
11 workmates on a bus, stopped by the ira. The catholic was asked to identify himself. The prods tried to hide him as they thought it was a loyalist gang. He was told to run away by the ira and they then massacred the 10 prods.
And you say it wasn’t sectarian and it was retaliation for a murder the night before. And you say the brits were involved but earlier you claimed there was no collusion between brits and ira.

Do you realise that the conflict was mainly a tit-for-tat sectarian campaign and therefore almost all murders were in retaliation e.g the rising sun massacre was in so-called retaliation for the Shankill bomb - disgusting and zero excuse.
Your mask had already slipped. It has now fell off.
Do you realise the pain that was left in families by the sectarian scumbags on both sides

Farawayhome

blanch152 wrote: »

There was never any good reason for the activity of the IRA. Northern Ireland wasn't apartheid South Africa, neither was it Mao's China or Stalin's Russia, not to mention Pinochet's Chile or any other of a large number of examples.

The protection of child abusers, the kneecapping, the disappeared, the beatings, all things that they did to their own community, were beyond disgusting.

That is my opinion, and the opinion of an awful lot of ordinary decent people in the South of Ireland. Rewriting history to present the IRA as some benign modern-day Robin Hoods will not work for people like us.

As I've said repeatedly, the PIRA committed some horrendous acts. That they fought a cleaner war tells you a lot about how the British side operated.

Shooting kids dead, bombing towns and cities, slicing people up because they were Catholics, setting up a peadophile home for themselves and British politicians, the list goes on. The British terror campaign was vile and disgusting.

boetstark

Farawayhome wrote: »

The facts back up that it was in fact the British side who targetted innocents and inflicted terror on the Nationalist community. Whether by British armed forces, loyalists, ruc or whoever was involved on the unionist side, they murdered over 1,000 innocent people. The vast, vast majority being innocent Nationalists.
So not only did the British side create a state that turned into a deeply unjust and sectarian one. They then quashed peaceful protests with extreme violence and proceeded to inflict misery on the Nationalist community with what can only be described as a mass murder campaign that lasted a few decades!

Go away and read your facts. The origins of trouble in NI was when after partition in 1922 , Republicans/ IRA/ catholic community concentrated on bringing about the downfall of the north of Ireland.
If said community decided to accept where they lived was part of UK I believe we would not have had the civil rights issues followed by 30 years of violence. If they detested living under UK rule so much they knew where the border was.
Also look up official statistics , the IRA were responsible for almost two thirds of murders in NI. It's just Republican bs stating that the British army were bombing and murdering nationalists on a regular basis.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Thank goodness you two guys are getting no support from others or I would be depressed.
This is shocking stuff you are making excuses for.
11 workmates on a bus, stopped by the ira. The catholic was asked to identify himself. The prods tried to hide him as they thought it was a loyalist gang. He was told to run away by the ira and they then massacred the 10 prods.
And you say it wasn’t sectarian and it was retaliation for a murder the night before. And you say the brits were involved but earlier you claimed there was no collusion between brits and ira.

Do you realise that the conflict was mainly a tit-for-tat sectarian campaign and therefore almost all murders were in retaliation e.g the rising sun massacre was in so-called retaliation for the Shankill bomb - disgusting and zero excuse.
Your mask had already slipped. It has now fell off.
Do you realise the pain that was left in families by the sectarian scumbags on both sides

If you insist on ignoring that the security forces came from one religion because of the nature of the sectarian state created by partition then of course you can argue that the IRA were sectarian only in their targets. The reality is somewhat different though.
If they wanted to 'ethnically cleanse' then the bloodshed would have been much much worse, there were thousands of undefended easy targets.

boetstark

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Would that be the 'Red Hand Defenders band' who commemorate an illegal Protestant/Unionist murder gang with a history of killing innocent Catholics?

Same as gaa clubs naming teams and grounds after ira murderers. No difference.

Farawayhome

boetstark wrote: »

Go away and read your facts. The origins of trouble in NI was when after partition in 1922 , Republicans/ IRA/ catholic community concentrated on bringing about the downfall of the north of Ireland.
If said community decided to accept where they lived was part of UK I believe we would not have had the civil rights issues followed by 30 years of violence. If they detested living under UK rule so much they knew where the border was.
Also look up official statistics , the IRA were responsible for almost two thirds of murders in NI. It's just Republican bs stating that the British army were bombing and murdering nationalists on a regular basis.

This is a disgusting post. Nationalists should not have to leave their homes because unionists treated them like second class citizens. loyalist mobs tried to drive Nationalists out, they made an attempt to ethnically cleanse the north. We have to be grateful to the men and women who stood up to them.
The PIRA killed over 1,000 members of the security forces. They fought a cleaner war as the British side killed over 1,000 civilians.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Thank goodness you two guys are getting no support from others or I would be depressed.
This is shocking stuff you are making excuses for.
11 workmates on a bus, stopped by the ira. The catholic was asked to identify himself. The prods tried to hide him as they thought it was a loyalist gang. He was told to run away by the ira and they then massacred the 10 prods.

Are you trying to claim that the IRA came about because they didn't like protestants?

And you say it wasn’t sectarian and it was retaliation for a murder the night before. And you say the brits were involved but earlier you claimed there was no collusion between brits and ira.

----

Between the beginning of the truce (10 February 1975) and the Kingsmill massacre, loyalist paramilitaries killed 35 Catholic civilians in County Armagh or on its borders.[11][12] In that same period, republican paramilitaries killed 16 Protestant civilians and 17 members of the security forces in the same area.[11] Many of the loyalist attacks have been linked to the Glenanne gang; an alleged secret alliance of loyalist militants, British soldiers from the Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR), and police officers from the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC). A former member of the group said they wanted to provoke a civil war, believing that when civil war erupted they could then "crush the other side".[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsmill_massacre

The IRA was infiltrated by British Security Forces - they were not colluding.

---

Do you realise that the conflict was mainly a tit-for-tat sectarian campaign and therefore almost all murders were in retaliation e.g the rising sun massacre was in so-called retaliation for the Shankill bomb - disgusting and zero excuse.
Your mask had already slipped. It has now fell off.
Do you realise the pain that was left in families by the sectarian scumbags on both sides

You don't fool me with the odd reference to sectarian scumbags on both sides. Unionists set up the state of Northern Ireland as a 'protestant state for a protestant people'. How on earth could NI be anything else. You reap what you sew.

boetstark

Farawayhome wrote: »

The collusion by the British armed forces and loyalists was a murderous venture. Their main goal was to inflict as much pain and misery as possible onto the Nationalist community. The British armed forces could no longer commit acts like they did in Ballymurphy and Derry, the media spotlight was on them. Instead they armed loyalists to do the murdering for them.
This resulted in the biggest mass murder of the war and numerous murders and attempted murders of innocents. It was a very dirty war and the British security forces were the driving force behind it!

It is hard to take your views seriously when you are all over the place trying to quote facts. The largest single mass murder was Enniskillen. Ob and it was carried out by Republicans. Kingsmill , Birmingham, Manchester , warmington, all civilian mass murders by IRA.. can you give me numerous examples of ba murders.

downcow

boetstark wrote: »

Same as gaa clubs naming teams and grounds after ira murderers. No difference.

I appreciate your point but it isn’t even as simple as this.
Yes the gaa certainly have named many clubs after terrorists, but this band was not named after any terrorists as the terrorist gang of the same name was formed nearly 20 years later in a different county

downcow

boetstark wrote: »

It is hard to take your views seriously when you are all over the place trying to quote facts. The largest single mass murder was Enniskillen. Ob and it was carried out by Republicans. Kingsmill , Birmingham, Manchester , warmington, all civilian mass murders by IRA.. can you give me numerous examples of ba murders.

Great post to point out their nonsense. And I could go on Claudy, bloody Monday, bloody Friday, laMon, etc. All mass murder of civilians by the ira

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

There were a lot of similarities with apartheid South Africa. Bloody Sunday was similar to the Sharpsville massacre for example.


And the problem was ordinary people didn't have anyone to turn to. The State created the problems.



I'd consider myself to be an ordinary, decent person in the ''South of Ireland" who lived through that period of history. I can remember how ordinary decent people in the ''South of Ireland'' were angry enough with what was happening in Northern Ireland to protest strongly (and burn down the British Embassy in Dublin). The people who are trying to remove all blame for their part of what happened in NI are not Sinn Fein.

There is no comparison between Northern Ireland and South Africa. Anyone who equates the two really doesn't have a clue what real oppression is about.

A couple of thousand people were involved in the burning of the British Embassy. I am sure there are many more who have claimed to have been there while singing rebel songs down the pub.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I appreciate your point but it isn’t even as simple as this.
Yes the gaa certainly have named many clubs after terrorists, but this band was not named after any terrorists as the terrorist gang of the same name was formed nearly 20 years later in a different county

So what does the name of the band refer to?

Farawayhome

boetstark wrote: »

It is hard to take your views seriously when you are all over the place trying to quote facts. The largest single mass murder was Enniskillen. Ob and it was carried out by Republicans. Kingsmill , Birmingham, Manchester , warmington, all civilian mass murders by IRA.. can you give me numerous examples of ba murders.

The coordinated bombings in Dublin and Monaghan were the single biggest atrocity. Then you had Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy, Miami showband, the mass murders in Armagh. The list goes. The British side killed over 1,000 civilians. How can you defend this?

blanch152

Farawayhome wrote: »

The coordinated bombings in Dublin and Monaghan were the single biggest atrocity. Then you had Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy, Miami showband, the mass murders in Armagh. The list goes. The British side killed over 1,000 civilians. How can you defend this?

Who is defending them? I have condemned all terrorist activity. I also condemn security forces that use unnecessary force.

Will you do the same?

jm08

boetstark wrote: »

It is hard to take your views seriously when you are all over the place trying to quote facts. The largest single mass murder was Enniskillen. Ob and it was carried out by Republicans. Kingsmill , Birmingham, Manchester , warmington, all civilian mass murders by IRA.. can you give me numerous examples of ba murders.

Dublin-Monaghan bombings, May 1974: 34 murdered and about 300 injured. UVF assisted by British security forces (12 killed in Enniskillen and about 70 injured).