Border Poll discussion

Farawayhome

blanch152 wrote: »

Who is defending them? I have condemned all terrorist activity. I also condemn security forces that use unnecessary force.

Will you do the same?

Unionists! They are willing to throw loyalists under the bus in order to defend British security personnel. This ignores the fact that they were on the same side. They gave information to each other, provided arms, fought side by side.

I already have.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So what does the name of the band refer to?

You know quite well that there are dozens if not hundreds of bands with defenders in their title. It might be a town eg Carrick defenders or a region eg Mourne young defenders or something that represents culture or identity that’s under threat eg Crown defenders. The red hand is at the heart of Ulster identity so it is hardly a surprise if a number of bands have used the name Red Hand Defenders. Some lodges are called bible defenders etc

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You know quite well that there are dozens if not hundreds of bands with defenders in their title. It might be a town eg Carrick defenders or a region eg Mourne young defenders or something that represents culture or identity that’s under threat eg Crown defenders. The red hand is at the heart of Ulster identity so it is hardly a surprise if a number of bands have used the name Red Hand Defenders. Some lodges are called bible defenders etc

So, do you think marching up the street under that banner will inspire good relations?

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

There is no comparison between Northern Ireland and South Africa. Anyone who equates the two really doesn't have a clue what real oppression is about.

What they have in common is that they both had a system of discrimination - one based on colour of skin, the other one on religion and the oppressors were settlers.

A couple of thousand people were involved in the burning of the British Embassy. I am sure there are many more who have claimed to have been there while singing rebel songs down the pub.

The burning of the British Embassy was a response to Bloody Sunday in Derry - I don't think there were too many people singing anything at that protest.

Educate yourself: https://www.rte.ie/archives/2017/0201/849352-burning-the-british-embassy/

Junkyard Tom

boetstark wrote: »

The origins of trouble in NI was when after partition in 1922 , Republicans/ IRA/ catholic community concentrated on bringing about the downfall of the north of Ireland.
If said community decided to accept where they lived was part of UK I believe we would not have had the civil rights issues followed by 30 years of violence. If they detested living under UK rule so much they knew where the border was.
Also look up official statistics , the IRA were responsible for almost two thirds of murders in NI. It's just Republican bs stating that the British army were bombing and murdering nationalists on a regular basis.

So the Catholic minority were to blame for Unionist hate/sectarianism and denial of rights. Pretty shameful stuff there.

boetstark

Farawayhome wrote: »

This is a disgusting post. Nationalists should not have to leave their homes because unionists treated them like second class citizens. loyalist mobs tried to drive Nationalists out, they made an attempt to ethnically cleanse the north. We have to be grateful to the men and women who stood up to them.
The PIRA killed over 1,000 members of the security forces. They fought a cleaner war as the British side killed over 1,000 civilians.

You have reading /comprehension difficulties. I just gave a verifiable explanation why targeting of nationalists occurred. We all know what the consequences were.
I wonder if cork people decided that they didn't feel they belonged in Roi , and did all in their power to undermine the state...... what treatment would they have received from the rest of the country.
Two sides to this story but you only want to tell yours.

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

What they have in common is that they both had a system of discrimination - one based on colour of skin, the other one on religion and the oppressors were settlers.

There is absolutely no comparison between apartheid South Africa and any period of history in Ireland or Northern Ireland. I find such a comparison odious to say the least.

Apartheid was so much more than a system of discrimination.

jm08 wrote: »

The burning of the British Embassy was a response to Bloody Sunday in Derry - I don't think there were too many people singing anything at that protest.

Educate yourself: https://www.rte.ie/archives/2017/0201/849352-burning-the-british-embassy/

I think you missed my point, I was referring to today's old men claiming to have been there.

FrancieBrady

boetstark wrote: »

You have reading /comprehension difficulties. I just gave a verifiable explanation why targeting of nationalists occurred. We all know what the consequences were.
I wonder if cork people decided that they didn't feel they belonged in Roi , and did all in their power to undermine the state...... what treatment would they have received from the rest of the country.
Two sides to this story but you only want to tell yours.

Unionism removed the franchise from nationalism almost as soon as partition started. The only surprise is that it took so long for it to go up in flames.
You weren't given god like rights with partition. It's time you accepted this.

boetstark

downcow wrote: »

I appreciate your point but it isn’t even as simple as this.
Yes the gaa certainly have named many clubs after terrorists, but this band was not named after any terrorists as the terrorist gang of the same name was formed nearly 20 years later in a different county

Yes you and I know that the band came before the organisation, but as I am trying to say it is a one sided blame game with some posters here on boards.ie

Farawayhome

boetstark wrote: »

You have reading /comprehension difficulties. I just gave a verifiable explanation why targeting of nationalists occurred. We all know what the consequences were.
I wonder if cork people decided that they didn't feel they belonged in Roi , and did all in their power to undermine the state...... what treatment would they have received from the rest of the country.
Two sides to this story but you only want to tell yours.

What if Cork people were treated as second class citizens, were denied equal rights, got beaten off the streets when peacefully protesting, many were burned out of their homes?
You should be ashamed of yourself.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

There were a lot of similarities with apartheid South Africa. Bloody Sunday was similar to the Sharpsville massacre for example.

You are clearly on a wind up. Next you’ll be comparing internment to nazi concentration camps to see if that gets a rise out of people

boetstark

Farawayhome wrote: »

The coordinated bombings in Dublin and Monaghan were the single biggest atrocity. Then you had Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy, Miami showband, the mass murders in Armagh. The list goes. The British side killed over 1,000 civilians. How can you defend this?

A cousin of mine in the British army shot an IRA man. This " volunteer " was an active participant in a number of terrorist incidents. Your cain report calls him a civilian. Yet your beloved pira called him a volunteer when he was buried.
Was he a soldier or a civilian???

boetstark

Farawayhome wrote: »

The coordinated bombings in Dublin and Monaghan were the single biggest atrocity. Then you had Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy, Miami showband, the mass murders in Armagh. The list goes. The British side killed over 1,000 civilians. How can you defend this?

Oops. Dublin and Monaghan were 2 separate incidents. Enniskillen was 1. Not that hard to understand surely

FrancieBrady

boetstark wrote: »

A cousin of mine in the British army shot an IRA man. This " volunteer " was an active participant in a number of terrorist incidents. Your cain report calls him a civilian. Yet your beloved pira called him a volunteer when he was buried.
Was he a soldier or a civilian???

Oh great, another unverified anecdote.

Farawayhome

boetstark wrote: »

A cousin of mine in the British army shot an IRA man. This " volunteer " was an active participant in a number of terrorist incidents. Your cain report calls him a civilian. Yet your beloved pira called him a volunteer when he was buried.
Was he a soldier or a civilian???

Your cousin was apart of an organisation who brought terror to the Nationalist community and who killed a huge number of civilians. Why aren't you ashamed of him? Does he feel any guilt for the actions of the terrorist organisation he was apart of?
It's not my Cain site and I think I'll follow that instead of your anecdote.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You are clearly on a wind up. Next you’ll be comparing internment to nazi concentration camps to see if that gets a rise out of people

Do you understand what a 'comparison' is?

jm08

downcow wrote: »

You are clearly on a wind up. Next you’ll be comparing internment to nazi concentration camps to see if that gets a rise out of people

Nope. There is no similarity between nazi concentration camps and internment.

There is a similarity between Sharpsville and Bloody Sunday. The difference is the scale of the deaths and injuries.

Farawayhome

boetstark wrote: »

Oops. Dublin and Monaghan were 2 separate incidents. Enniskillen was 1. Not that hard to understand surely

It was a coordinated attack and you're still wrong anyway. Oops.

boetstark

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

So the Catholic minority were to blame for Unionist hate/sectarianism and denial of rights. Pretty shameful stuff there.

Yes absolutely. The treatment they received afterwards was heavy handed but under stable.

boetstark

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Oh great, another unverified anecdote.

Absolute truth. He moved home 3 months after and spent years looking over his shoulder. He lives with that to this day. My point is the guy he shot was either a civilian or a soldier. Republicans are the ones that called the struggle a war

Farawayhome

boetstark wrote: »

Absolute truth. He moved home 3 months after and spent years looking over his shoulder. He lives with that to this day. My point is the guy he shot was either a civilian or a soldier. Republicans are the ones that called the struggle a war

Maybe he told you a lie. He said he was an IRA man but really your cousin shot an innocent civilian. The British armed forces have a horrible history of killing civilians.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

There is absolutely no comparison between apartheid South Africa and any period of history in Ireland or Northern Ireland. I find such a comparison odious to say the least.

Apartheid was so much more than a system of discrimination.

Why do you find it odious? Are you not ashamed that people on this island were discriminated against because of their ethnicity and religion and many were murdered by State forces when they sought equality?

I think you missed my point, I was referring to today's old men claiming to have been there.

I don't know what circles you mix in, but I have never heard in my circles of anyone boasting about being at the burning of the British Embassy in Dublin. The reason why people were protesting are far too serious to be glib about it.

FrancieBrady

boetstark wrote: »

Absolute truth. He moved home 3 months after and spent years looking over his shoulder. He lives with that to this day. My point is the guy he shot was either a civilian or a soldier. Republicans are the ones that called the struggle a war

Regardless of what he was yourself and Downcow are on a 'our guys were the victims' offensive here.
Anyone who thinks that they can march down a street under the banner of a band called 'The Red Hand Defenders' without facing censure and arbitration is on the delusion spectrum tbh.

boetstark

Farawayhome wrote: »

Maybe he told you a lie. He said he was an IRA man but really your cousin shot an innocent civilian. The British armed forces have a horrible history of killing civilians.

I am bailing out of this discussion after this post. Getting weary from explaining things.
News report and sinn Fein IRA claimed him as a volunteer and gave him a military funeral. Maybe it was a bad curry that snuffed him.

Farawayhome

boetstark wrote: »

I am bailing out of this discussion after this post. Getting weary from explaining things.
News report and sinn Fein IRA claimed him as a volunteer and gave him a military funeral. Maybe it was a bad curry that snuffed him.

You should be ashamed and embarrassed just like your cousin. Defending the killing of civilians is vile and disgusting.

blanch152

boetstark wrote: »

I am bailing out of this discussion after this post. Getting weary from explaining things.
News report and sinn Fein IRA claimed him as a volunteer and gave him a military funeral. Maybe it was a bad curry that snuffed him.

There were a large number of civilians given IRA funerals during the crisis. Even the Gibraltar three are counted as civilians by many on the nationalist side, despite being on their way to commit another atrocity.

jm08

boetstark wrote: »

A cousin of mine in the British army shot an IRA man. This " volunteer " was an active participant in a number of terrorist incidents. Your cain report calls him a civilian. Yet your beloved pira called him a volunteer when he was buried.
Was he a soldier or a civilian???

What were the circumstances that your soldier cousin shot him? Was the IRA man armed or was your cousin executing him to save the bother of giving him a trial?

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

What were the circumstances that your soldier cousin shot him? Was the IRA man armed or was your cousin executing him to save the bother of giving him a trial?

You are absolutely right to hold security services to higher standards than ordinary everyday terrorists. And yes, where possible the IRA criminals should have been arrested and given a trial.

The children killed and injured by so many IRA bombs never got a trial. Neither did Lord Mountbatten, or the Tory party in Brighton. Those people kneecapped, the children sexually abused by IRA members in safe houses, one convicted only last week, where was their justice?

It is clear that the British government and its agents dropped their standards during the Troubles, it is also clear that SF/IRA had no standards during that time.

Farawayhome

blanch152 wrote: »

You are absolutely right to hold security services to higher standards than ordinary everyday terrorists. And yes, where possible the IRA criminals should have been arrested and given a trial.

The children killed and injured by so many IRA bombs never got a trial. Neither did Lord Mountbatten, or the Tory party in Brighton. Those people kneecapped, the children sexually abused by IRA members in safe houses, one convicted only last week, where was their justice?

It is clear that the British government and its agents dropped their standards during the Troubles, it is also clear that SF/IRA had no standards during that time.

As I've said already, amazingly the PIRA fought the cleaner war! The British side shot children dead, sliced up innocents, bombed towns and cities, set up a paedophile home, all under the watch and approval of the British government.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

You are absolutely right to hold security services to higher standards than ordinary everyday terrorists. And yes, where possible the IRA criminals should have been arrested and given a trial.

The children killed and injured by so many IRA bombs never got a trial. Neither did Lord Mountbatten, or the Tory party in Brighton. Those people kneecapped, the children sexually abused by IRA members in safe houses, one convicted only last week, where was their justice?

It is clear that the British government and its agents dropped their standards during the Troubles, it is also clear that SF/IRA had no standards during that time.

You speak as one who thinks there is a perfect conflict/war. Like Janfebmar who thinks that rules apply.