Border Poll discussion

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I appreciate that response - interesting and challenging.
Your parting phrase doesn't sit that well with me though "both sides are as bad as each other in the north". a little stereotypical, and i know the south has moved on, but a relative of mine had an experience recently in Cork that would suggest its not quite how you present it]

RTE Morning Island this morning talking about Nationwide tonight which features Eileen Paisley. The Paisley family have commissioned a piece of sculpture to commemorate his life and they got the person who sculpted the gift that Bertie Ahern gave to the Paisley on their 50th Wedding Anniversary. Bertie gave them a bowl carved from a tree which grew at the site of the Battle of the Boyne. The Paisley's were very moved by this gift.

This is what Eileen Paisley had to say about Cork:

About her late husband's role in power-sharing:
"Things did change at that time more than they did in a long time. I had people from the south of Ireland writing to me, meeting me and saying 'your husband has made such a difference'.
"In fact when we went to Dublin and we went to Cork ... that was really overwhelming. We met people in Cork who said you should have been here 20 years ago."

https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2019/0407/1041249-eileen-paisley-brexit/

downcow

Dytalus wrote: »

Precisely. I don't think anyon in this thread has advocated a 'take over', because everyone with even a passing familiarity with Northern Ireland knows how much of a disaster forcing the issue would be. Reunification is always going to be a slow process once it gets started, but it's unfair to give unionists (or republicans, for that matter) a special right to 'protect their culture' without making accomodations for the other side.

Unionist parades should be allowed go ahead (because why wouldn't they, so long as they're peaceful). Republicans will have to deal with that. All citizens of a united ireland should be allowed hold parades, and that includes the unionists.

But likewise unionists will have to deal with (probably a poor example, but it's off the top of my head) Irish classes in their schools. It's mandatory in all of ours, and we might be able to accomodate some kind of exemption for first generational citizens (ie, those who were NI citizens prior to and during unification).

Interesting. So my culture would be allowed if I behaved well and your kids could just ignore it, but it would be compulsory for my kids to participate in your culture?

I think those proposing a UI will have a shock if the think they can continue to discriminate like roi used to. Those days are over. You will need to give equality (at least) to minority cultures and languages

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Interesting. So my culture would be allowed if I behaved well and your kids could just ignore it, but it would be compulsory for my kids to participate in your culture?

Good behaviour is a requirement for anyone who wants to parade. Are you suggesting that the OO should be given special permission to misbehave?

I think those proposing a UI will have a shock if the think they can continue to discriminate like roi used to. Those days are over. You will need to give equality (at least) to minority cultures and languages

What ROI discrimination are you referring to?

English has equal standing with Irish - both are compulsory here.

Frank Castle

downcow wrote: »

if the think they can continue to discriminate like roi used to. Those days are over. s

Care to elaborate? As I don't see what you are referring to.

downcow wrote: »

You will need to give equality (at least) to minority cultures and languages

Like we do in the north? Pot kettle back there. There will never be equality until everyone acknowledges their own shortcomings, including us.
By acting like roi are the sole problem you make us look bad and cause resentment.

What do you think we should compromise on in a UI? Personally I think we should be more respectful with marching (try not to aggravate the other side) and I would get rid of bonfires altogether (planet needs to be saved, bonfires don't help)

Dytalus

downcow wrote: »

Interesting. So my culture would be allowed if I behaved well and your kids could just ignore it, but it would be compulsory for my kids to participate in your culture?

It would be compulsory for your kids to participate in the Irish language so long as they are citizens of Ireland. The same way it is compulsory for every child in Ireland. That's the exact opposite of discrimination. Even children of imigrants are required to study Irish in school if they come here before age 11. Why should your culture get special treatment? What is so awful about Irish culture that you see it as a threat to your own? I promise you, studying the Irish language in no way impacts the cultural identity of those studying it - it's treated (and from personal experience feels) exactly like you're studying any other foreign language, or any other subject you don't want to. I don't think I've spoken or read any Irish since finishing school (to my great shame, and I am trying to rectify it now by personal choice). At best, I say Oíche mhaith when going to bed.

And it's only the studying of the language (which, as already pointed out, you also study English in school as a mandatory subject. There aren't even exemptions to that like there is for Irish as far as I am aware) you'd be required to 'subject' yourselves to. You wouldn't need to speak irish in public (lord knows I don't), you wouldn't be forced to attend Catholic churches or sing the national anthem (assuming it even stayed as Amhrán na bhFiann which is unlikely) if you didn't want to. You wouldn't be forced to celebrate St Patrick's Day (I already don't, despite being born and raised Irish. Too much effort, frankly).

And of course you'd only be allowed indulge in parades (never said the rest of your cultural identity. Your language wouldn't be systematically eradicated, for example). Parades effect everyone they go near, and like all public events must be okayed with the authorities. If you can't have a parade without causing trouble, you don't get a parade. The exact same requirement is made of protest marches and public celebrations in the republic. I even agreed above that the Parades Commission should remain as is. Nothing should change for Unionist parades as they are handled now.

How is any of that construed as discrimination? You're actually asking to be treated differently because you want special dispensation for your culture over all other minority cultures. Why should unionists be given a free pass on the things they don't like about Ireland (studying Irish), when Muslims and Jewish citizens, or immigrants from other countries (EU or otherwise) don't?

The language and the parades are two examples from each side that I gave. It's incredibly disingenuous of you to assume I meant all of your cultural practices require "good behaviour", or that we would 'force' all of our culture onto your children rather than a single part of the curriculum.

I think those proposing a UI will have a shock if the think they can continue to discriminate like roi used to. Those days are over. You will need to give equality (at least) to minority cultures and languages

Evidence of such discrimination please? There is a mosque near my old college which Muslims are freely allowed worship in. There are no laws denying Spanish immigrants the right to speak their language. You can even study it for the leaving certificate if you want, though due to budget and time constraints not every school can offer it. Likewise with German, Arabic, French, Russian, Japanese and many others. All available to study and take examinations in at a student's request.

What has been explored here by unification proponents is exactly equality. Unionists in a United Ireland will be (and indeed, should be) treated exactly the same as every other citizen, Irish, EU National, or otherwise. What should not be offered is exemptions and special treatment where there is no compromise from Unionists in return.

boetstark

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who ever suggested a UI without compromises?

That would be the very definition of a 'take over'. Of course there will be compromise, but compromise should not be mistaken for appeasement for the sake of it. Unionists will have to accommodate too if they wish to remain democrats.

Would you be happy to forsake the soldier song anthem and the tricolour for a United Ireland Francie
I think alot of nationalists say a reunification but will not sacrifice Republican symbols for a new country. I would be interested to see how many contributors here feel about that.
I have seen people refuse to stand for irelands call at rugby internationals as they insist that it should be soldiers song and if northerners dont like it go play for England.
The signs to northern folk arent great.

Dytalus

boetstark wrote: »

Would you be happy to forsake the soldier song anthem and the tricolour for a United Ireland Francie
I think alot of nationalists say a reunification but will not sacrifice Republican symbols for a new country. I would be interested to see how many contributors here feel about that.
I have seen people refuse to stand for irelands call at rugby internationals as they insist that it should be soldiers song and if northerners dont like it go play for England.
The signs to northern folk arent great.

Can't speak for Francie (though I have a vague buzzing in my head that they've answered this before), but I'd be a proponent of both. A UI is not the RoI conquering the north. It is the formation of a new country, and I'd be all for a new flag and anthem to account for that.

Plus then we might not get confused with the Ivory Coast or Italy quite so much by other countries.

James Brown

boetstark wrote: »

Would you be happy to forsake the soldier song anthem and the tricolour for a United Ireland Francie
I think alot of nationalists say a reunification but will not sacrifice Republican symbols for a new country. I would be interested to see how many contributors here feel about that.
I have seen people refuse to stand for irelands call at rugby internationals as they insist that it should be soldiers song and if northerners dont like it go play for England.
The signs to northern folk arent great.

Personally I'd be fine with a new flag and anthem. There's staunch folk on either side but I don't think the majority would have a problem with it, considering it will essentially be a new country, not a republic as we have currently. The flag would need be Irish, for a united Ireland. There would need be green. There already is orange. Maybe take out the white and redesign? Would other cultures maybe want inclusion too?

FrancieBrady

boetstark wrote: »

Would you be happy to forsake the soldier song anthem and the tricolour for a United Ireland Francie
I think alot of nationalists say a reunification but will not sacrifice Republican symbols for a new country. I would be interested to see how many contributors here feel about that.
I have seen people refuse to stand for irelands call at rugby internationals as they insist that it should be soldiers song and if northerners dont like it go play for England.
The signs to northern folk arent great.

I have said it many times. Yes, I would change anthem and flag.

The reason they don't stand for 'Ireland's Call' is that it is a sop to unionism, not because it is an agreed anthem.

That is why appeasement for the sake of it, or because one side will be upset is wrong.

Agreed symbols and anthems is the way forward, mature and sensible.

jm08

boetstark wrote: »

Would you be happy to forsake the soldier song anthem and the tricolour for a United Ireland Francie
I think alot of nationalists say a reunification but will not sacrifice Republican symbols for a new country. I would be interested to see how many contributors here feel about that.
I have seen people refuse to stand for irelands call at rugby internationals as they insist that it should be soldiers song and if northerners dont like it go play for England.
The signs to northern folk arent great.

I think most people are open about the symbols. I'd be happy to change the anthem, the symbolism of the tricolour seems to me to be appropriate and gives recognition to the Protestant tradition. Still, if thats what they want, I don't see a problem with coming up with new inclusive symbols.

The bottom line is that Ireland's Call is used and while a lot of people don't like it, they realise why it is there and is a reasonable compromise. Thats a compromise that the unionists won't make when it comes to the NI Football team when they could easily play Danny Boy rather than GSTQ.

Frank Castle

boetstark wrote: »

I have seen people refuse to stand for irelands call at rugby internationals as they insist that it should be soldiers song and if northerners dont like it go play for England.
The signs to northern folk arent great.

As someone who has been to every home game, and a lot of the away games in the last 13 years (apart from this 6 nations, too many fair weather fans signing up and ruining the ticketing system!) I have honestly never seen or heard of this happening.

There are of course people who think like this, but they are a minority. We don't want roi judging us by the actions of bigots on our side, so we should not judge them in that way either

darem93

Changing the flag or the anthem wouldn't bother me at all. The idea of building a new and agreed country is a much more exciting prospect.

The only thing is I wonder if the green and orange would still be incorporated in some way to a new flag or do you design an entirely new flag with a different colour?

blanch152

downcow wrote: »

Interesting. So my culture would be allowed if I behaved well and your kids could just ignore it, but it would be compulsory for my kids to participate in your culture?

I think those proposing a UI will have a shock if the think they can continue to discriminate like roi used to. Those days are over. You will need to give equality (at least) to minority cultures and languages

The removal of mandatory Irish in education is an obvious first step to take towards the British minority in a united Ireland.

downcow

Frank Castle wrote: »

I would get rid of bonfires altogether (planet needs to be saved, bonfires don't help)

I am glad it’s not up to you then. This environment thing cracks me up in relation to bonfires.
We have middle class people who jump on jets annually and have huge carbon footprints telling young disadvantaged young people who have tiny carbon footprints to end one of the highlights of their year.
This is an example of our lack of understanding of each other from living apart
Kids start gathering wood now towards a big event in July. They take massive community pride in the event.
It will be good craic watching you tell them they aren’t allowed a boney this year and you are going to force them to learn Irish instead

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I am glad it’s not up to you then. This environment thing cracks me up in relation to bonfires.
We have middle class people who jump on jets annually and have huge carbon footprints telling young disadvantaged young people who have tiny carbon footprints to end one of the highlights of their year.
This is an example of our lack of understanding of each other from living apart
Kids start gathering wood now towards a big event in July. They take massive community pride in the event.
It will be good craic watching you tell them they aren’t allowed a boney this year and you are going to force them to learn Irish instead

So what are you going to compromise on?

Several areas of contention and you have handwaved them away as needing reform/abolition.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So what are you going to compromise on?

Several areas of contention and you have handwaved them away as needing reform/abolition.

To be fair, if there is a United Ireland, the major compromise is from the unionist side, who are compromising on their place in the world. Getting rid of the flag, anthem and compulsory Irish are relatively small compromises in comparison. Letting them have their parades and bonfires is relatively small beer.

Dytalus

downcow wrote: »

I am glad it’s not up to you then. This environment thing cracks me up in relation to bonfires.
We have middle class people who jump on jets annually and have huge carbon footprints telling young disadvantaged young people who have tiny carbon footprints to end one of the highlights of their year.
This is an example of our lack of understanding of each other from living apart
Kids start gathering wood now towards a big event in July. They take massive community pride in the event.
It will be good craic watching you tell them they aren’t allowed a boney this year and you are going to force them to learn Irish instead

You don't want to learn Irish in school, despite every other student learing it regardless of nationality or cultural heritage. You don't want an irish anthem. You don't want the merging of the NI and RoI football teams. You don't want to accept any part of irish culture into your life.

You want to keep every one of your cultural practices, regardless of whether they're safe (a bunch of lads collecting a mound of wood and igniting it without supervision of the authorities re health and safety should never be allowed happen. It's not allowed down here for a reason, and it's not unionists doing it). You want to keep your parades without any kind of oversight. You want to pretend that certain organisations with a history of antagonistic actions should be allowed host their antagonistic parades. You want to ensure that Irish nationals must be accomodating of every aspect of your culture.

For someone who keeps claiming we have to be willing to compromise for reunification, you're not very forthcoming on compromise yourself.

blanch152 wrote: »

To be fair, if there is a United Ireland, the major compromise is from the unionist side, who are compromising on their place in the world. Getting rid of the flag, anthem and compulsory Irish are relatively small compromises in comparison. Letting them have their parades and bonfires is relatively small beer.

I disagree on the Irish language front. Yes, it's a small thing. But given its near eradication by an occupational power, it's crucial we keep it in our schools (althought it could be handled way better, admittedly) and try to keep it alive. Exemptions could be made for unionists in the same way foreign students, or nationals who grew up abroad have exemptions, but I don't agree with removing it altogether as acceptable compromise.

Parades I'm fine with. Bonfires less so - they have the capacity to be pretty dangerous ('it hasn't happened' yet isn't a good enough excuse. I haven't been hit by a car yet, but I still wait for the man to turn green when crossing). I don't mind if they were handled like, say, a fireworks show. Have someone on hand in case of emergency, let the authorities know beforehand, keep it away from dry foliage or houses.

I'll admit I don't know if these regulations are already in place in NI, and if they are then I'm content enough keeping them. I'm picturing it like the unmanaged things that happen around halloween in the Republic which have the tendency to be....chaotic.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

To be fair, if there is a United Ireland, the major compromise is from the unionist side, who are compromising on their place in the world. Getting rid of the flag, anthem and compulsory Irish are relatively small compromises in comparison. Letting them have their parades and bonfires is relatively small beer.

Again with the, 'sure it is not that bad, put up with it' appeasement.
There is nothing 'fair' in consigning people to intimidation, abuse and bigotry. We tried that pretty successfully with partition and look how it worked out.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I am glad it’s not up to you then. This environment thing cracks me up in relation to bonfires.
We have middle class people who jump on jets annually and have huge carbon footprints telling young disadvantaged young people who have tiny carbon footprints to end one of the highlights of their year.
This is an example of our lack of understanding of each other from living apart
Kids start gathering wood now towards a big event in July. They take massive community pride in the event.
It will be good craic watching you tell them they aren’t allowed a boney this year and you are going to force them to learn Irish instead

Are you not worried about how dangerous some of them are? The size and proximity to housing estates is dangerous. People having to be evacuated from their homes, houses having to be hosed down by the fire brigade to to stop them going up in smoke.

https://www.independent.ie/videos/irish-news/video-watch-moment-huge-bonfire-collapses-belfast-residents-living-in-fear-34851815.html

edit: Would you mind saying what ROI discriminations you were referring to earlier?

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Again with the, 'sure it is not that bad, put up with it' appeasement.
There is nothing 'fair' in consigning people to intimidation, abuse and bigotry. We tried that pretty successfully with partition and look how it worked out.

There is a lot of history and tradition in NI and there should be compromise on both sides otherwise it wouldn't be fair.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

There is a lot of history and tradition in NI and there should be compromise on both sides otherwise it wouldn't be fair.

Nobody has an issue with history and tradition. How many times does it need to be stated.

Having 'a right to march wherever you want' is not a tradition.
Bigotry, racism and intimidation around bonfire season is not based on any history a democrat would want to keep. That needs to be forgotten and put away.

Frank Castle

downcow wrote: »

I am glad it’s not up to you then. This environment thing cracks me up in relation to bonfires.
We have middle class people who jump on jets annually and have huge carbon footprints telling young disadvantaged young people who have tiny carbon footprints to end one of the highlights of their year.
This is an example of our lack of understanding of each other from living apart
Kids start gathering wood now towards a big event in July. They take massive community pride in the event.
It will be good craic watching you tell them they aren’t allowed a boney this year and you are going to force them to learn Irish instead

Living apart? You know i am part of the community right? I just have the sense to acknowledge that bonfires cause harm. I fully partook and enjoyed them myself, but at some point we have to change for the better. And the whole 'they fly jets so I can do what I want' argument is pointless. We all have to change ourselves, regardless of what others do. This attitude is why nothing changes. Pointing the finger and ignoring our own contribution to harm helps nothing.

Again you claim pride in bonfires? We both know full well that its just a bit of craic, none of us really took pride in it. At some point you will have to start being honest with yourself.

Cause right now all I can see from you is contrary, try offering a solution instead of shutting everyone else down.

Also as I am raised a unionist I never did Irish. My children will start school soon here in Mayo and they will learn irish. I take no issue with this, it isn't going to harm me nor them.

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

Are you not worried about how dangerous some of them are? The size and proximity to housing estates is dangerous. People having to be evacuated from their homes, houses having to be hosed down by the fire brigade to to stop them going up in smoke.

https://www.independent.ie/videos/irish-news/video-watch-moment-huge-bonfire-collapses-belfast-residents-living-in-fear-34851815.html

Eh, Halloween in Dublin?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Again with the, 'sure it is not that bad, put up with it' appeasement.
There is nothing 'fair' in consigning people to intimidation, abuse and bigotry. We tried that pretty successfully with partition and look how it worked out.

If we have a united Ireland, it means nothing, it is only symbolic.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Eh, Halloween in Dublin?

So because Halloween in Dublin endangers people, so too should others be allowed to, so a few belligerent unionists, who are breaking quite a few laws/codes, won't be upset??

seamus

blanch152 wrote: »

Eh, Halloween in Dublin?

Seriously?

When's the last time you've heard of houses in Dublin having to be evacuated on Halloween night due to their proximity to fires?

How many bonfires in Dublin are forty feet high?

How many are draped in foreign flags and used as beacons for racism and sectarianism?

"Sure a few bonfires are lit in Dublin, what's the harm?"

It's pretty clear blanch that you know nothing of the nature of bonfire night up North but you're trying to play Devil's Advocate anyway.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

Eh, Halloween in Dublin?

What about Halloween in Dublin?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

If we have a united Ireland, it means nothing, it is only symbolic.

Not where I live along the border it wouldn't.

I can understand how it would be for somebody content to ignore it.

Farawayhome

I think some unionists have this paranoia about a United Ireland. Because they treated Nationalists so badly in their state, they think there'd be some form of revenge or repercussions. This is far from the truth and in fact, Unionists will be mollycoddled in a United Ireland. Ordinary Irish people, be they Nationalist, unionist, neither, whatever religion and so on have so much in common. It doesn't make sense to have two states on this one island. Yes there'd be a few issues to sort out but they are very minor when you think about it. Let's just get on with it.

Mrsmum

All right thinking adults frown on Halloween bonfires down here. It's something for the most part only silly teenagers and fools get up to. Do normal adults really collect wood, tyres etc and sit/stand around them drinking beer up north ? I think they could lose that silly activity. The emergency services have enough to do doing without having to be dealing with deliberately started fires and the drunken behaviour around them.