Border Poll discussion

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I haven’t watched RTin many years but switched on this week to watch brexit. I was amazed to see the main news begin with those bells. It would not be tolerated for five minutes up north if either side decided to try to own the news. So we have all some work still to do.

The bells are played at 12 and 6pm every day. The imagery with them is secular and now I think its referred to as a moment of reflection. Some people complained that they were too secular and others complained that they were not religious enough. Interesting Senator David Norris (Church of Ireland) supported retaining them as the country is christian.

Maybe you could approach it with what you would want included, rather than what you can take from the other. The basis of the discussion should be pariety of esteem, not deprive people of their own culture.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

The bells are played at 12 and 6pm every day. The imagery with them is secular and now I think its referred to as a moment of reflection. Some people complained that they were too secular and others complained that they were not religious enough. Interesting Senator David Norris (Church of Ireland) supported retaining them as the country is christian.

Maybe you could approach it with what you would want included, rather than what you can take from the other. The basis of the discussion should be pariety of esteem, not deprive people of their own culture.

I agree completely. Just I got the sense some people were approaching the debate on the basis that roi was more open to diversity than NI. Sometimes this is simply based on where each is viewing from.
I am all for valueing the richness of all the cultures on the island new and old

Mr.Nice Guy

Discussion of a potential border poll coming up now on BBC NI's Nolan Live if you can bring yourself to watch.

An Ciarraioch

One novel way to ease unionist concerns would be some form of Celtic federation - rather than independence, Scotland would vote to join the grouping to remain in the EU. The three countries would have complete internal autonomy, but common policies on foreign affairs and defence, similar to the Channel Islands.

Mr.Nice Guy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Discussion of a potential border poll coming up now on BBC NI's Nolan Live if you can bring yourself to watch.

A lot of vitriol and invective in this debate.

Imreoir2

View wrote: »

Your “occupiers” had at that stage been in Ireland for hundreds of years - they would (virtually) all have qualified, under modern rules, for Irish citizenship had that been available at the time. And, if, in your eyes, that isn’t enough to make them Irish, then it is little wonder that the average NI unionist wants nothing to do with any prospect of a united Ireland.

Also, in the age of the divine right of kings (which only gradually sputtering to an end in the 18th Century), the right to govern Ireland came directly from the pope (bar a short interlude when it was handed to the King of Spain at the time of the reformation). And, at the time, unless you fancied running the risk of being declared a heretic, that was an opinion that the people of the time accepted.

Had you suggested to a great number of the people who sat in that Parliament that they were Irish and not English, they would quite probably have slapped you in the face, but apparently we should only consider the context of the time when it supports our opinions.

Imreoir2

downcow wrote: »

I agree with you both tricolour and union flag are abhorrent to one community or other dnd both would be unacceptable

The thing is that we are not merely talking about one community or the other in NI, we are talking about the whole island and the tri-colour is entirely acceptable to the vast majority of the people of this island. That it might not be acceptable to a minority is neither here nor there. Abortion is unacceptable to a much greater minority in Ireland and yet abortion is legal.

cgcsb

Was in Tokyo for Paddy's day once, they had a wonderful Paddy's day parade, lots of kids with their faces painted Green, White and Orange. This is the accepted symbol of Ireland across the world. If a minority of foreign people who chose to live here are offended by same, they are not compelled to remain and endure.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I agree completely. Just I got the sense some people were approaching the debate on the basis that roi was more open to diversity than NI. Sometimes this is simply based on where each is viewing from.
I am all for valueing the richness of all the cultures on the island new and old

Compare the different attitudes - you think that the bells would have to be removed from the airwaves whereas I haven't heard anyone suggest anywhere that Orange Order parades should be banned (in fact, people here say they should be promoted).

jm08

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

One novel way to ease unionist concerns would be some form of Celtic federation - rather than independence, Scotland would vote to join the grouping to remain in the EU. The three countries would have complete internal autonomy, but common policies on foreign affairs and defence, similar to the Channel Islands.

Thats the last thing Northern Ireland needs - complete internal autonomy. Have you not noticed what it has been like since partition?

Big Ears

While I agree with previous points that there's more prominent points to consider when it comes to a United Ireland than Flags.
I do find it unusual that no one had mentioned a variation of the four provinces flags that are sometimes used by All-Ireland Sports teams or organisations (such as the IRFU or Hockey Ireland, Golfing Union of Ireland, IABA etc)

These flags are inclusive by their very nature, they represent everyone on the island, and most people would already have some level of affinity to such a flag (through their province at least).
The individual provincial flags are also already displayed in our capital on O'Connell bridge.

cgcsb

cgcsb wrote: »

Was in Tokyo for Paddy's day once, they had a wonderful Paddy's day parade, lots of kids with their faces painted Green, White and Orange. This is the accepted symbol of Ireland across the world. If a minority of foreign people who chose to live here are offended by same, they are not compelled to remain and endure.

except these aren't a group of foreign people who chose to live here, they are a group of people who have lived on this island for generations and whose right to live in Ireland but hold a different nationality is agreed and accepted under an international agreement.

cgcsb

Big Ears wrote: »

I do find it unusual that no one had mentioned a variation of the four provinces flags that are sometimes used by All-Ireland Sports teams or organisations (such as the IRFU or Hockey Ireland, Golfing Union of Ireland, IABA etc)

Yes, and it's an absolute joke. Other countries get to just fly their flags in competitions and we're afraid to.

cgcsb

Aegir wrote: »

except these aren't a group of foreign people who chose to live here, they are a group of people who have lived on this island for generations and whose right to live in Ireland but hold a different nationality is agreed and accepted under an international agreement.

If you have a 'different nationality' you are foreign by definition. They want to live here, fine, god knows why someone offended by Irishness would want to, but fine. Ireland has national symbols though, if they offend, sorry bye. And just to clarify, the majority of Nordies with Scottish heritage are not offended by Irishness, you're talking about a sub-minority of undesireables.

cgcsb

cgcsb wrote: »

If you have a 'different nationality' you are foreign by definition. They want to live here, fine, god knows why someone offended by Irishness would want to, but fine. Ireland has national symbols though, if they offend, sorry bye. And just to clarify, the majority of Nordies with Scottish heritage are not offended by Irishness, you're talking about a sub-minority of undesireables.

do the same rules currently apply to the Foreigners in Northern Ireland? If you don't like it, **** off to your own country?

Imreoir2

I think one thing above all else is clear, the unionists community in the North East is not going anywhere. While I do not think that community should be given a veto on our national symbols, there can be no question of them being expected or encouraged to leave. They must have the freedom and protection to live their lives and practice their culture and traditions in peace within their own homeland. Without that, a United Ireland would be a farce and a betrayal of the hopes of everyone on this island.

cgcsb

Aegir wrote: »

do the same rules currently apply to the Foreigners in Northern Ireland? If you don't like it, **** off to your own country?

I was stating my opinion. There are no 'rules' on the topic. Besides NI doesn't have a flag at the moment and there are only a handful of foreigners.

cgcsb

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I think one thing above all else is clear, the unionists community in the North East is not going anywhere. While I do not think that community should be given a veto on our national symbols, there can be no question of them being expected or encouraged to leave. They must have the freedom and protection to live their lives and practice their culture and traditions in peace within their own homeland. Without that, a United Ireland would be a farce and a betrayal of the hopes of everyone on this island.

Absolutely.

cgcsb

cgcsb wrote: »

I was stating my opinion. There are no 'rules' on the topic. Besides NI doesn't have a flag at the moment and there are only a handful of foreigners.

about 20% of the population, by your definition.

cgcsb

Aegir wrote: »

about 20% of the population, by your definition.

20% of the pop of NI are foreigners? what are you blithering on about?

cgcsb

cgcsb wrote: »

20% of the pop of NI are foreigners? what are you blithering on about?

20% hold an Irish passport.

James Brown

fly_agaric wrote: »

There's going to be a noisy, (possibly) cantankerous, (definitely) awkward few 100k of their descendants in any putative UI. People on both sides are really going to have to go along to get along on at least some of these symbology/"flags" issues or store up more pain for very little gain. Perhaps people should rethink whether they really, really want UI if they think the reality of UI is going to be just like a big Ireland where nothing really changes except a few extra counties tacked on that tidies up the map.

Agreed, but it's not a new union between British colonists loyal to Britain and possibly the Dutch and the rest of Ireland. It's the unification of Ireland. That said of course there needs to be big changes but including anything British would be plain silly considering moving away from Britain is the whole point.

cgcsb

Aegir wrote: »

20% hold an Irish passport.

So are not foreign then.

cgcsb

cgcsb wrote: »

So are not foreign then.

So an Irish passport holder in the UK is not foreign, but a British passport holder in Ireland is??

breatheme

Neither a British passport holder in Ireland is a foreigner, and neither an Irish passport holder in Britain is a foreigner. There are laws enshrining this.

James Brown

Apart from having to accept climate change, evolution and the rights of same sex partnerships, the Unionists can continue as is pretty much. Nobody can or is interested in changing their culture, as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights and civil liberties of others.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Compare the different attitudes - you think that the bells would have to be removed from the airwaves whereas I haven't heard anyone suggest anywhere that Orange Order parades should be banned (in fact, people here say they should be promoted).

I def did not say the bells would have to be removed. In fact I said I thought diversity should be valued.
.....and would you promote orange marches where others have prevented them? I don’t think so. Not that I am saying you should but you imply an openness which I’m not sure all you countrymen would agree with - and what then?

Charles Babbage

Aegir wrote: »

20% hold an Irish passport.

I suggest your data is out of date.

downcow

Big Ears wrote: »

While I agree with previous points that there's more prominent points to consider when it comes to a United Ireland than Flags.
I do find it unusual that no one had mentioned a variation of the four provinces flags that are sometimes used by All-Ireland Sports teams or organisations (such as the IRFU or Hockey Ireland, Golfing Union of Ireland, IABA etc)

These flags are inclusive by their very nature, they represent everyone on the island, and most people would already have some level of affinity to such a flag (through their province at least).
The individual provincial flags are also already displayed in our capital on O'Connell bridge.

I genuinely appreciate your attempt at inclusiveness. But I’m not sure people in roi understand how unionists look east. I was in company with a number of friends recently and rugby came up and amongst six of us we couldn’t be sure where the four provences were. 4 of us knew where Leinster was but only 2 got the other 2 correct and 2 couldn’t even name the four. It’s like you trying to name the English counties or American states. So there is no affiliation to province flags. That’s s very gaa thing or middle class rugby thing.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I def did not say the bells would have to be removed. In fact I said I thought diversity should be valued.
.....and would you promote orange marches where others have prevented them? I don’t think so. Not that I am saying you should but you imply an openness which I’m not sure all you countrymen would agree with - and what then?

Sorry, I misunderstood your post when you said:

"I was amazed to see the main news begin with those bells. It would not be tolerated for five minutes up north if either side decided to try to own the news. So we have all some work still to do".


There will have to be give and take with where the marches are and to remember, ''with rights, come responsibilities.''