Border Poll discussion

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The cost to the fire service not to mention the police, suggests it is a bigger problem than hoax bomb alerts.

Absolute nonsense. Where are the stats for that one. 11th night is now very peaceful in NI.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Absolute nonsense. Where are the stats for that one. 11th night is now very peaceful in NI.

Your 'fun' doesn't come cheap.
Note: the costs here are fire service and not police or clean-up or removal (so contentious they have been kept secret)

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-ireland-fire-service-tackles-over-1800-bonfires-in-five-years-37095531.html

p.s. Why don't you ever research before going into denial?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your 'fun' doesn't come cheap.
Note: the costs here are fire service and not police or clean-up or removal (so contentious they have been kept secret)

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-ireland-fire-service-tackles-over-1800-bonfires-in-five-years-37095531.html

p.s. Why don't you ever research before going into denial?

You think if you say something with enough confidence everyone will be sucked in by it.
So bonfires are costing fire service £60,000 per year and you are asking us to accept that bomb scares are not costing more than that?? I can’t find stats but I’ll eat my hat if bombscares are not costing more than £60,000 per year.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your 'fun' doesn't come cheap.
Note: the costs here are fire service and not police or clean-up or removal (so contentious they have been kept secret)

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-ireland-fire-service-tackles-over-1800-bonfires-in-five-years-37095531.html

p.s. Why don't you ever research before going into denial?

Take another look at your stats.
Cost of boneys £60,000
4 months of fun for 60,000 young people
Cost of 4 months fun per child - £1
= a bargain

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You think if you say something with enough confidence everyone will be sucked in by it.
So bonfires are costing fire service £60,000 per year and you are asking us to accept that bomb scares are not costing more than that?? I can’t find stats but I’ll eat my hat if bombscares are not costing more than £60,000 per year.

We are discussing the cost of bonfires and their control.

'Because another bad thing costs x then we should be allowed to continue to do our bad thing' is peak juvenile denial tbh.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Thousands upon thousands of people take part in 11th night fires year after year. I can’t remember a single issue of anyone being injured. Remarkable it may be but it is also fact. So don’t do a Stephen Nolan and pretend you are worried about young prods or the environment. Neither stands up to examination

Really!

Here is an incident of a young boy being poisoned by the fumes from a bonfire.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-40058998

‘One 999 call every minute’ after Eleventh bonfires lit

https://www.itv.com/news/utv/update/2017-07-12/fire-service-dealt-with-exceptionally-busy-night/

Masked men also used burning cars to block roads close to the Ulster Hospital in Dundonald on the outskirts of Belfast, while a bus with passengers on board was hijacked before being set alight in nearby Newtownards.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2018/0712/978100-ulster-unrest-bonfires/

£25K each approx. to clean up after 2 bonfires in Belfast (according to Belfast City Council).

Topgear on Dave

Loyalist bonfire builders are going to obey a bonfire ban from Dublin?

Lads, this is about as likely as SF going to vote in the commons on request from FG. :pac:

jm08

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Loyalist bonfire builders are going to obey a bonfire ban from Dublin?

Lads, this is about as likely as SF going to vote in the commons on request from FG. :pac:

Not ban them, make them safe and encourage them to maybe revert back to what they were originallly like. Spend the money that would go on cleaning up after them on having fireworks display.

FrancieBrady

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Loyalist bonfire builders are going to obey a bonfire ban from Dublin?

Lads, this is about as likely as SF going to vote in the commons on request from FG. :pac:

The important thing would be to state that they are illegal and do not stand for any official stance of the new state.

Then it is up to their political reps to bring pressure to bear to stop it. Seems the Unionists on here are not willing even to criticise them.
They wouldn't be representative of the vast majority of unionists who I know are deeply shamed by them.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The important thing would be to state that they are illegal and do not stand for any official stance of the new state.

Then it is up to their political reps to bring pressure to bear to stop it. Seems the Unionists on here are not willing even to criticise them.
They wouldn't be representative of the vast majority of unionists who I know are deeply shamed by them.

Firstly,there would probably have to be at least two years negotiations before there was a referendum and the possibility of the former six counties having some degree of self government(as Scotland?)which would avoid conflict-people aren't going to want to stop traditional practices which have occurred for centuries overnight.As has previously been suggested,Donegal might be considered as being part of the self governing region.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Really!

Here is an incident of a young boy being poisoned by the fumes from a bonfire.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-40058998

‘One 999 call every minute’ after Eleventh bonfires lit

https://www.itv.com/news/utv/update/2017-07-12/fire-service-dealt-with-exceptionally-busy-night/



https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2018/0712/978100-ulster-unrest-bonfires/

£25K each approx. to clean up after 2 bonfires in Belfast (according to Belfast City Council).

A fairly pathetic attempt to exaggerate issues surrounding 11th night. Is this the best you could find in google.

You first refers to a fly tipping incident - you aren’t really suggesting that young people brought s empty used metal drums to try and burn on a bonfire.

Your second - do you realise that fire service is bombarded with fake and unessary calls from nationalists who want to disrupt the celebrations. They refer to a peak 5 hour period and say s call every minute and yet fire service only left fire station 40 times Also as a simple comparison for you - on the 10 days leading up to the eleventh night you quote, note NIFRS attended 1000 gorse fires That puts your 40 call outs in perspective

And your third - you quote from that big fan of unionist culture mary Lou. Seriously?
Mary as a private-school educated English Literature graduate wouldnt know too much about working class culture and a women who vehemently opposed an Orange Order parade in Dublin, and spoke out in support of the ‘volunteers of the IRA’s Tyrone brigade’ is hardly going to show support for young people from unionist areas

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Not ban them, make them safe and encourage them to maybe revert back to what they were originallly like. Spend the money that would go on cleaning up after them on having fireworks display.

You just sooo don’t get it do you.
To suggest replacing cultural bonfires which entertain kids for months gathering wood etc and are a big competition between areas and sense of pride - WITH A FIREWORKS DISPLAY!! Such ridiculous comment.

Sure why not replace hurling with hockey so as not as many people get injured - more alike than bonfires and fireworks

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The important thing would be to state that they are illegal and do not stand for any official stance of the new state.

Then it is up to their political reps to bring pressure to bear to stop it. Seems the Unionists on here are not willing even to criticise them.
They wouldn't be representative of the vast majority of unionists who I know are deeply shamed by them.

Nonsense and anecdotal again. Of course there are a minority of unionist who have a problem with them and indeed have a problem with unionist culture in general. That’s hardly shocking - I know nationalists who have a problem with loads of nationalist cultural stuff.
These bonfires are at the heart of unionist communities and attended by huge numbers. Sometime you should do a wee tour of a few on the 11th - they are amazing structures which most enjoy having in their midst or they wouldn’t happen.

Francie I appreciate your concerns for the safety of young prods but relax, these are well organised in the main. I hope you don’t lie awake at night worrying about those young prods. I told you , put your energy into road safety if you are concerned about people’s safety.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Firstly,there would probably have to be at least two years negotiations before there was a referendum and the possibility of the former six counties having some degree of self government(as Scotland?)which would avoid conflict-people aren't going to want to stop traditional practices which have occurred for centuries overnight.As has previously been suggested,Donegal might be considered as being part of the self governing region.

Well, political reps acting now to condemn this stuff would be long over due tbh,

*Not sure Donegal would be in agreement there.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Nonsense and anecdotal again. Of course there are a minority of unionist who have a problem with them and indeed have a problem with unionist culture in general. That’s hardly shocking - I know nationalists who have a problem with loads of nationalist cultural stuff.
These bonfires are at the heart of unionist communities and attended by huge numbers. Sometime you should do a wee tour of a few on the 11th - they are amazing structures which most enjoy having in their midst or they wouldn’t happen.

Francie I appreciate your concerns for the safety of young prods but relax, these are well organised in the main. I hope you don’t lie awake at night worrying about those young prods. I told you , put your energy into road safety if you are concerned about people’s safety.

Loads of things that lots of people used to do as normal, that a modern progressive, inclusive society doesn't do anymore.

I can't believe you are standing over overt racist and bigoted behaviour. I thought you claimed to be a moderate.

Quin_Dub

All,

This argument about Bonfires is going absolutely nowhere.

Move on please.

downcow

RobMc59 wrote: »

Firstly,there would probably have to be at least two years negotiations before there was a referendum and the possibility of the former six counties having some degree of self government(as Scotland?)which would avoid conflict-people aren't going to want to stop traditional practices which have occurred for centuries overnight.As has previously been suggested,Donegal might be considered as being part of the self governing region.

Its comments like this that show the real intention of some for a UI.
I think this is clear that you intend snuffling out our culture gradually.
What about considering embracing and enjoying our culture.
eg the twelfth is the biggest celebration on the island and up north is becoming more and more of a tourist draw.
Don't expect people to ever embrace youe new Ireland while your agenda is to extinguish their culture - Turkies & Christmas come to mind

Thankfully there are many southerners who take a different view

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Its comments like this that show the real intention of some for a UI.
I think this is clear that you intend snuffling out our culture gradually.
What about considering embracing and enjoying our culture.
eg the twelfth is the biggest celebration on the island and up north is becoming more and more of a tourist draw.
Don't expect people to ever embrace youe new Ireland while your agenda is to extinguish their culture - Turkies & Christmas come to mind

Thankfully there are many southerners who take a different view

Sorry.
In general, and this applies to ANY culture. I will not and cannot 'embrace' overt racist and bigoted behaviour.
Some things need to be consigned to history. And with or without a UI, these aspects will eventually be consigned to history. We have already seen the work the Parades Commission and progressive politics has done on this.

Nobody wants to 'extinguish' your 'culture.
Again, I am amazed that you are calling intimidatory marching and racist triumphalist behaviour: 'culture'. It really isn't.

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

Firstly,there would probably have to be at least two years negotiations before there was a referendum and the possibility of the former six counties having some degree of self government(as Scotland?)which would avoid conflict-people aren't going to want to stop traditional practices which have occurred for centuries overnight.As has previously been suggested,Donegal might be considered as being part of the self governing region.

What makes you think this will work in a UI when it has failed over the last 100 years.

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

What makes you think this will work in a UI when it has failed over the last 100 years.

The difference would be it would be a UI but the six counties would govern themselves to a degree like Scotland does in the UK-apart from disagreeing about brexit the relationship has worked well.Many in NI who would be unhappy with being absorbed into Ireland maybe more willing to that kind of arrangement.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

The difference would be it would be a UI but the six counties would govern themselves to a degree like Scotland does in the UK-apart from disagreeing about brexit the relationship has worked well.Many in NI who would be unhappy with being absorbed into Ireland maybe more willing to that kind of arrangement.

It has proved spectacularly over 100 years that it cannot govern itself because of the absurdity of partition.
Even the British, bless them, didn't think that would last.

RobMc59

downcow wrote: »

Its comments like this that show the real intention of some for a UI.
I think this is clear that you intend snuffling out our culture gradually.
What about considering embracing and enjoying our culture.
eg the twelfth is the biggest celebration on the island and up north is becoming more and more of a tourist draw.
Don't expect people to ever embrace youe new Ireland while your agenda is to extinguish their culture - Turkies & Christmas come to mind

Thankfully there are many southerners who take a different view

I'm a British unionist and would prefer NI to remain part of the UK.The prospect of a UI is a real possibility especially if there is a bad brexit and if that is the case wouldn't it be better if the people of NI were proactive and had a big input into the negotiating process rather than being told what they can and can't do.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It has proved spectacularly over 100 years that it cannot govern itself because of the absurdity of partition.
Even the British, bless them, didn't think that would last.

So would Ireland then become the new "oppressors"?-because unless you can win hearts and minds that's how some in NI will see it.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

So would Ireland then become the new "oppressors"?-because unless you can win hearts and minds that's how some in NI will see it.

Jesus. How could Ireland be 'oppressors' if a majority vote for this to happen?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sorry.
In general, and this applies to ANY culture. I will not and cannot 'embrace' overt racist and bigoted behaviour.
Some things need to be consigned to history. And with or without a UI, these aspects will eventually be consigned to history. We have already seen the work the Parades Commission and progressive politics has done on this.

Nobody wants to 'extinguish' your 'culture.
Again, I am amazed that you are calling intimidatory marching and racist triumphalist behaviour: 'culture'. It really isn't.

A transformation of this attitude is probably key in helping Unionists feel warmer towards the idea of a united Ireland.
You have got a dated and disingenuous approach to the marching culture.
Many of the parades in Northern Ireland are becoming much more open and becoming attractive to tourists. You may be surprised the number of Catholics who attend parades either out of curiosity or with their Protestant friends. It's not a huge number yet but I would certainly argue that more Catholics in Northern Ireland attend Orange parades and Protestants attend gaelic games.
I think the trend of more openness and consideration to our neighbours by the marching fraternity is probably quite threatening to you, because you want to paint the 4000 parades as if they are all like half a dozen which have difficulties.
Your southern friends may believe you, but it certainly is unfortunate if they do, as it does nothing for us all moving forward.
Marching is not going away. Tens of thousands of young people will be involved every Friday and Saturday night from now until September. It is a huge part of their lives and identity. Some of these bands spent up to £100,000 per year to stay on the road in this style and presentation they are accustomed to. I don't know without checking but there is somewhere between 600 and 1,000 bands in this wee place. Add to that a similar number of Orange lodges and a lesser number of black Preceptories, and apprentice boys clubs. This is what you're trying to smother.
With regard to the history of these organisations - yes of course they grew out of one side of a conflict, but if we are going to dispose of every culture that has its roots in something we don't agree with then we would have to get rid of most of our celebrations e.g. Halloween, Guy Fawkes night, and the growing number of atheists would be pushing to get rid of Christmas.

A huge challenge for you if you seriously want to encourage the Unionist community to consider your new Ireland, is to begin by showing the Unionist community that you are seriously interested in understanding and respecting their identity and culture

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jesus. How could Ireland be 'oppressors' if a majority vote for this to happen?

Do you truly think everyone would be happy with suddenly being told what has traditionally been part of their lives is now unacceptable?Be realistic- it could cause major unrest.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jesus. How could Ireland be 'oppressors' if a majority vote for this to happen?

oppressors are usually, but not always, majorities

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Do you truly think everyone would be happy with suddenly being told what has traditionally been part of their lives is now unacceptable?Be realistic- it could cause major unrest.

You claimed the south would be 'oppressors' for wanting a society were racist and bigoted behaviour would be consigned to history.
There will be partitionists in the south unhappy and people in the north unhappy. But they have been claiming to be 'democrats' for years.

What do 'democrats' do when a majority choose to do something?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

A transformation of this attitude is probably key in helping Unionists feel warmer towards the idea of a united Ireland.
You have got a dated and disingenuous approach to the marching culture.
Many of the parades in Northern Ireland are becoming much more open and becoming attractive to tourists. You may be surprised the number of Catholics who attend parades either out of curiosity or with their Protestant friends. It's not a huge number yet but I would certainly argue that more Catholics in Northern Ireland attend Orange parades and Protestants attend gaelic games.
I think the trend of more openness and consideration to our neighbours by the marching fraternity is probably quite threatening to you, because you want to paint the 4000 parades as if they are all like half a dozen which have difficulties.
Your southern friends may believe you, but it certainly is unfortunate if they do, as it does nothing for us all moving forward.
Marching is not going away. Tens of thousands of young people will be involved every Friday and Saturday night from now until September. It is a huge part of their lives and identity. Some of these bands spent up to £100,000 per year to stay on the road in this style and presentation they are accustomed to. I don't know without checking but there is somewhere between 600 and 1,000 bands in this wee place. Add to that a similar number of Orange lodges and a lesser number of black Preceptories, and apprentice boys clubs. This is what you're trying to smother.
With regard to the history of these organisations - yes of course they grew out of one side of a conflict, but if we are going to dispose of every culture that has its roots in something we don't agree with then we would have to get rid of most of our celebrations e.g. Halloween, Guy Fawkes night, and the growing number of atheists would be pushing to get rid of Christmas.

A huge challenge for you if you seriously want to encourage the Unionist community to consider your new Ireland, is to begin by showing the Unionist community that you are seriously interested in understanding and respecting their identity and culture

I didn't finish that post. Why bother when you are AGAIN setting out to misrepresent me and the arguments I am making.

Nobody has a problem with peaceful, respectful parades where they are wanted.
The Parades Commission and most progressive people have been advocating this for years and it as a result of their work that improvements have happened and that finally Unionism has given up the belief that they have inalienable rights around this.

Avatar MIA

downcow wrote: »

oppressors are usually, but not always, majorities

The days of oppressing in a western democracy are over. Ironically the last of such was probably NI, but 24/7 media coverage has been the death knell of it.