Border Poll discussion

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

The difference would be it would be a UI but the six counties would govern themselves to a degree like Scotland does in the UK-apart from disagreeing about brexit the relationship has worked well.Many in NI who would be unhappy with being absorbed into Ireland maybe more willing to that kind of arrangement.

A relationship that amounts to Westminister bankrolling NI and then forgetting about it. As it is, there is no investment in NI and young people, particualrly from a unionist background go to GB for university and don't return. Similar situation for nationalists moving to the ROI.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I think the trend of more openness and consideration to our neighbours by the marching fraternity is probably quite threatening to you, because you want to paint the 4000 parades as if they are all like half a dozen which have difficulties.

Watching the St. Patrick's Day Parade in Dublin this year, there were marching bands from all over the world parading down O'Connell Street.

I understand that there was some sort of an international band competition on in Limerick where many of them were going to. Why are NI bands not involved since it is such an important part of NI culture?

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Watching the St. Patrick's Day Parade in Dublin this year, there were marching bands from all over the world parading down O'Connell Street.

I understand that there was some sort of an international band competition on in Limerick where many of them were going to. Why are NI bands not involved since it is such an important part of NI culture?

Sorry, I genuinely don't understand your question.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Watching the St. Patrick's Day Parade in Dublin this year, there were marching bands from all over the world parading down O'Connell Street.

I understand that there was some sort of an international band competition on in Limerick where many of them were going to. Why are NI bands not involved since it is such an important part of NI culture?

Is this what you're talking about. I think you will find that this is a band that parades at all the big Unionist cultural events e.g. twelfth, promoting how well they done at the event you said there was no Northern Ireland bands at
http://www.fmmpb.com/videos/all-ireland-championships-2018/
of course maybe they just photoshopped a video of themselves with the Wexford landscape in the background - those Brits at it again
here they are on an orange parade before you claim differently https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqKMpZDq6VI
...and of course that was on their way to becoming world champions - doesn't fit with how you describe orange bands

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Sorry, I genuinely don't understand your question.

Why are there no NI bands participating in the St. Patrick's Day Parade in Dublin, bearing in mind that there are bands from all over the world participating in it, plenty of which have little or no diaspara connection with Ireland - its just a big event for bands from all over the world.

downcow wrote: »

Is this what you're talking about. I think you will find that this is a band that parades at all the big Unionist cultural events e.g. twelfth, promoting how well they done at the event you said there was no Northern Ireland bands at
http://www.fmmpb.com/videos/all-ireland-championships-2018/
of course maybe they just photoshopped a video of themselves with the Wexford landscape in the background - those Brits at it again

The competition I'm referring to is the the Limerick one which is on for St. Patrick's Weekend. I see the Northern Ireland Friendship Band won something at it.

https://www.limerick.ie/discover/eat-see-do/festivals/limerick-international-band-championship/prizewinners

I'm pointing out all the events/festivals all over the island of Ireland which would give a new lease of life to unionists bands and would be a way of sharing unionist culture with everyone else.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Why are there no NI bands participating in the St. Patrick's Day Parade in Dublin, bearing in mind that there are bands from all over the world participating in it, plenty of which have little or no diaspara connection with Ireland - its just a big event for bands from all over the world.

I'm pointing out all the events/festivals all over the island of Ireland which would give a new lease of life to unionists bands and would be a way of sharing unionist culture with everyone else.

That is a very fair question. I know a number of young people in bands and the current commitment is enormous. They will attend parades at the rate of at least 2-3 per week probably in the region of 70-100 per year. They just wouldn’t have the time.
They are also a community and attend each other’s parades so why would they head of to Dublin cork etc and neglect their own.
I am unsure if they would be welcome at Dublin parades. There are very few who would be prepared to leave their flags etc at home - would these be acceptable (serious questions).
We discussed earlier in this thread how organisers went into blind panic when a Downpatrick loyalist band applied to enter the parade as the organisers knew the friendly folk who attend the parade would not be best pleased.

I think you point is good though that our bands should parade in nationalist areas as a shared education exercise. Mind you it hasn’t really worked up north in in the one attempt in Dublin

Dytalus

downcow wrote: »

That is a very fair question. I know a number of young people in bands and the current commitment is enormous. They will attend parades at the rate of at least 2-3 per week probably in the region of 70-100 per year. They just wouldn’t have the time.
They are also a community and attend each other’s parades so why would they head of to Dublin cork etc and neglect their own.
I am unsure if they would be welcome at Dublin parades. There are very few who would be prepared to leave their flags etc at home - would these be acceptable (serious questions).
We discussed earlier in this thread how organisers went into blind panic when a Downpatrick loyalist band applied to enter the parade as the organisers knew the friendly folk who attend the parade would not be best pleased.

I think you point is good though that our bands should parade in nationalist areas as a shared education exercise. Mind you it hasn’t really worked up north in in the one attempt in Dublin

Personally I'd love to see unionist bands in the St. patrick's parade, flags and all**. We've got bands from tons of other nationalities and cultures present after all. There does come the issue of some unionist symbols being used by violent extremists and like it or not, that's tainted those images (same way the tricolour wouldn't be suitable for a UI. The IRA soiled it somewhat in NI's eyes). That, I think, would need to be addressed in some fashion.

I don't think it could happen right away. Immediately post reunification there's not going to be acceptance of unionist and british emblems in what is one of the primary celebrations of Irish culture (I think the same could be said if Unionists were asked to accomodate irish marching bands in their parades, tbf. I don't see it as being a uniquely republican problem). It would have to be a slow transition of acceptance. Social change is always slower than we'd like. But in the interim I'd definitely support them taking part in smaller celebrations or competitions across the island.

**I wouldn't actually like this because I do not like marching bands in general, and parades even less so. But I support the principal of it.

droidman123

Dytalus wrote: »

Personally I'd love to see unionist bands in the St. patrick's parade, flags and all**. We've got bands from tons of other nationalities and cultures present after all. There does come the issue of some unionist symbols being used by violent extremists and like it or not, that's tainted those images (same way the tricolour wouldn't be suitable for a UI. The IRA soiled it somewhat in NI's eyes). That, I think, would need to be addressed in some fashion.

I don't think it could happen right away. Immediately post reunification there's not going to be acceptance of unionist and british emblems in what is one of the primary celebrations of Irish culture (I think the same could be said if Unionists were asked to accomodate irish marching bands in their parades, tbf. I don't see it as being a uniquely republican problem). It would have to be a slow transition of acceptance. Social change is always slower than we'd like. But in the interim I'd definitely support them taking part in smaller celebrations or competitions across the island.

**I wouldn't actually like this because I do not like marching bands in general, and parades even less so. But I support the principal of it.

Do you not think the union jack flag is "soiled"?

downcow

Dytalus wrote: »

Personally I'd love to see unionist bands in the St. patrick's parade, flags and all**. We've got bands from tons of other nationalities and cultures present after all. There does come the issue of some unionist symbols being used by violent extremists and like it or not, that's tainted those images (same way the tricolour wouldn't be suitable for a UI. The IRA soiled it somewhat in NI's eyes). That, I think, would need to be addressed in some fashion.

I don't think it could happen right away. Immediately post reunification there's not going to be acceptance of unionist and british emblems in what is one of the primary celebrations of Irish culture (I think the same could be said if Unionists were asked to accomodate irish marching bands in their parades, tbf. I don't see it as being a uniquely republican problem). It would have to be a slow transition of acceptance. Social change is always slower than we'd like. But in the interim I'd definitely support them taking part in smaller celebrations or competitions across the island.

**I wouldn't actually like this because I do not like marching bands in general, and parades even less so. But I support the principal of it.

fair comment

Dytalus

droidman123 wrote: »

Do you not think the union jack flag is "soiled"?

Of course it is. I addressed this:

come the issue of some unionist symbols being used by violent extremists and like it or not, that's tainted those images.

Granted, the actions of the British Government could hardly be said to be "extremists", but I admittedly give more leeway to the Union Jack than the Ulster Banner used by Unionists because, well...find me a country older than a century that hasn't stained its national colours in some way. If we're going to allow their flags to be flown in our St. Patrick's parade we should also allow the union jack.

droidman123

Dytalus wrote: »

Of course it is. I addressed this:



Granted, the actions of the British Government could hardly be said to be "extremists", but I admittedly give more leeway to the Union Jack than the Ulster Banner used by Unionists because, well...find me a country older than a century that hasn't stained its national colours in some way. If we're going to allow their flags to be flown in our St. Patrick's parade we should also allow the union jack.

The point i am making is flying the union jack would be akin to flying a swaztika in relation to the atrocities that have been committed under it,not just in ireland,but worldwide.i know some horrible acts were committed under the irish tricolour,but the fundemental difference is they were not sanctioned by our government

RobMc59

droidman123 wrote: »

The point i am making is flying the union jack would be akin to flying a swaztika in relation to the atrocities that have been committed under it,not just in ireland,but worldwide.i know some horrible acts were committed under the irish tricolour,but the fundemental difference is they were not sanctioned by our government

That's a pretty inflammatory statement-can you back it up with links?

Avatar MIA

RobMc59 wrote: »

That's a pretty inflammatory statement-can you back it up with links?

Ah stop, a war like country could not possibly avoid it. If you know anything about history you'll be able to list loads.

droidman123

RobMc59 wrote: »

That's a pretty inflammatory statement-can you back it up with links?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/worst-atrocities-british-empire-amritsar-boer-war-concentration-camp-mau-mau-a6821756.html%3famp

Thats just a tiny example.hopefully when my country is finally united this viile emblem will be legally banned

RobMc59

droidman123 wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/worst-atrocities-british-empire-amritsar-boer-war-concentration-camp-mau-mau-a6821756.html%3famp

Thats just a tiny example.hopefully when my country is finally united this viile emblem will be legally banned

How strange that all the countries mentioned are in the Commonwealth....

droidman123

RobMc59 wrote: »

How strange that all the countries mentioned are in the Commonwealth....

Whats that got to do with anything?

Avatar MIA

RobMc59 wrote: »

How strange that all the countries mentioned are in the Commonwealth....

Commonwealth syndrome ? :pac:

RobMc59

droidman123 wrote: »

Whats that got to do with anything?

If the UK is as bad as you say then those countries wouldn't be in the Commonwealth I imagine.

droidman123

RobMc59 wrote: »

If the UK is as bad as you say then those countries wouldn't be in the Commonwealth I imagine.

Are you saying none of those things actually happened?

RobMc59

droidman123 wrote: »

Are you saying none of those things actually happened?

I don't know and some of them are only allegations according to the article.

droidman123

RobMc59 wrote: »

I don't know and some of them are only allegations according to the article.

Yeah,and i suppose it was only "allegated" that stalin and hitler and chruchill were lowlifes?

RobMc59

droidman123 wrote: »

Yeah,and i suppose it was only "allegated" that stalin and hitler and chruchill were lowlifes?

In a thread that is likely to have posters from the UK what is the point you are trying to make with your inflammatory comments?-Or are you just trying to get a rise out of people?

droidman123

RobMc59 wrote: »

In a thread that is likely to have posters from the UK what is the point you are trying to make with your inflammatory comments?-Or are you just trying to get a rise out of people?

They are not inflammatory,they are well known facts.the point i am making is,that when my country is united i hope we will see the end of that union jack flying on our island

jm08

downcow wrote: »

That is a very fair question. I know a number of young people in bands and the current commitment is enormous. They will attend parades at the rate of at least 2-3 per week probably in the region of 70-100 per year. They just wouldn’t have the time

They are also a community and attend each other’s parades so why would they head of to Dublin cork etc and neglect their own.

I suppose the same reason bands like to travel to other parts of the world to entertain people elsewhere.

I am unsure if they would be welcome at Dublin parades. There are very few who would be prepared to leave their flags etc at home - would these be acceptable (serious questions).

Why would they not be welcome?
I just watched a bit of this video of a band parade and I can't see anything flag or emblem that anyone would object to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LGmK9Z8m7s

We discussed earlier in this thread how organisers went into blind panic when a Downpatrick loyalist band applied to enter the parade as the organisers knew the friendly folk who attend the parade would not be best pleased.

I read the report from the Parades Commission - not sure anyone was in a blind panic. The problem seemed to be that the organisers wanted to bring 32 bands (approx. 9-1000 band members) into a small area. The Parades Committee said that the local band could parade but the 31 others could not come into this area.

Now, whats unreasonable about that?

I think you point is good though that our bands should parade in nationalist areas as a shared education exercise. Mind you it hasn’t really worked up north in in the one attempt in Dublin

I think maybe the route to take in NI is to wait to be invited first of all. I don't think anyone would be too bothered in ROI if there were bands from NI in organised parades.

downcow

droidman123 wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/worst-atrocities-british-empire-amritsar-boer-war-concentration-camp-mau-mau-a6821756.html%3famp

Thats just a tiny example.hopefully when my country is finally united this viile emblem will be legally banned

I am curios if you will be banning many others eg USA, France, Holland, Spain, China, etc etc

droidman123

downcow wrote: »

I am curios if you will be banning many others eg USA, France, Holland, Spain, China, etc etc

Last time i looked,the usa,holland spain,france,or china ever invaded my country

downcow

droidman123 wrote: »

They are not inflammatory,they are well known facts.the point i am making is,that when my country is united i hope we will see the end of that union jack flying on our island

I hope there are plenty more like cause people like you will ensure there is never a UI

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I hope there are plenty more like cause people like you will ensure there is never a UI

When a majority vote for a UI, what are you as a democrat going to compromise on?

So far, it seems to be, absolutely nothing.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When a majority vote for a UI, what are you as a democrat going to compromise on?

So far, it seems to be, absolutely nothing.

If the UK comes to an agreement with the EU there probably won't be a UI in any of our lifetimes Francie.

McMurphy

RobMc59 wrote: »

That's a pretty inflammatory statement-can you back it up with links?

Top of my head.

Irish

The famine.
Bloody Sunday 1
Bloody Sunday 2

No links required.

Others across the world.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_war_crimes

Britain operated concentration camps was news to me I must admit.