Border Poll discussion

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You want me to name a band and then you will try to say that 'funding' is not funding really? :rolleyes::D

Here is a member of the Orange and Black institutions, William Humphrey DUP, praising the securing of 'funding' for bands he has walked behind.

Perhaps the word of an MLA will suffice?

Francie, I think we all know why you are ducking and diving such a simple question.
You've obviously been searching Google again to come up with these quotes so why not just name one of these mystery "Orange bands" that have received funding
And I promise you I will not say funding is not really funding.
I will be completely honest in my response to your answer. And I will apologise if that's appropriate . But I warn you again I am going to be as pedantic as you were when I made the original comment

Frank Castle

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The patience shown despite the many goalposts and intransigence and lies and ignorance is to be commended but let's remember, that's wasted energy. We don't need or want the likes of Downcow's votes or opinions. We don't need to spend energy to compel him or his ilk.

I shouldn't have to "sell" a better future to the ignorant or dilute my culture to make sure that loyalists feel the warm fuzzies of being a special people.

So do ya know what, I'm not gonna bother. There's a middle ground worth fighting for. They're getting my focus.

Never shut down discourse. It is a good thing and should not be ignored or censored. You don't have to agree with people, but ignore them is what leads to the situation we have in the north.

Communication isn't always easy and can be frustrating, but don't give up on it.

It is better to change the focus of the conservation than to walk away from it

johnnyskeleton

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The patience shown despite the many goalposts and intransigence and lies and ignorance is to be commended but let's remember, that's wasted energy. We don't need or want the likes of Downcow's votes or opinions. We don't need to spend energy to compel him or his ilk.

Mod note:

You dont have to respond to every poster that you disagree with, but if you do please be civil. Here, this kind of talking over someone in a dismissive manner is not acceptable debate.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie, I think we all know why you are ducking and diving such a simple question.
You've obviously been searching Google again to come up with these quotes so why not just name one of these mystery "Orange bands" that have received funding
And I promise you I will not say funding is not really funding.
I will be completely honest in my response to your answer. And I will apologise if that's appropriate . But I warn you again I am going to be as pedantic as you were when I made the original comment

What does this mean?

But I warn you again I am going to be as pedantic as you were when I made the original comment

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What does this mean?

Francie I am getting tired of this particular discussion, but if it is a genuine question I will explain again.

I was pointing out that funding was not required for a culture to flourish. I made the comment that orange bands don’t receive funding. You lept on this particular part of my post and Google searched to find what you thought was a few orange bands receiving tiny crumbs compared to what some cultures receive.
You used this to say, here is Downcow at it again telling lies.

I pointed out that your interpretation was rather pedantic, accepted that I did not mean orange culture has never got a penny. But I went on to ask you to give me the name of one Orange band that has received funding (and simply explained that I would read it in the same pedantic way you read my post, to ensure its accuracy)

you have now spent the last series of posts putting Google links on but you have yet to name one orange band that recieved funding and yet you say there are loads

Now I am very happy to drop the topic as I am tired of this approach, and would much rather we read each other’s posts with an intention of learning something.

But if you insist on arguing that my statement was inaccurate then you should post the name of an orange band that as received funding - but i will use your pedantic method of interpreting it to check out if i really lied - and if you are correct my apology awaits

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Francie and JM08 You are spinning again.
You know exactly the point I was making i.e. that massive amounts of funding is going into supporting Irish language in Northern Ireland compared to tiny drops of funding that makes its way to any of the full range of Unionist cultural activities. And i wasn't complaining about that rather i was just pointing out that money invested in a particular culture/hobby does not equate with interest generated

I didn’t even start on the millions that are going into GAA, I simply pointed out the millions that are going into Irish language. You can spin it whatever way you wish but the facts are very clear.

And as for your attempted pedantic and hair splitting interpretation of what I said (orange bands have received no funding) and then stating that I was wrong - if I take the same pedantic and hair splitting interpretation of what I said, then I was 100% accurate. No orange band did receive any funding - can you clearly demonstrate were one did?

Now I am not pedantic and hair splitting and therefore freely admit that mine was a general comment i.e. no funding – meant- practically no funding, and orange bands – meant - the full swathe of loyalist marching bands.

But there you are, you choose whichever interpretation you wish, pedantic or general, and I was 100% accurate and correct in my statement.

You know debate would get much further and be more productive, if your sole purpose wasn’t to prove others wrong all the time, but if you were actually interested in learning something, and a good start would be learning to humbly accept when you are wrong.

Since when is education just a hobby?

In the academic year 2018/19, over 6,000 children are enrolled in Irish-medium education:

• 43 nurseries (Naoileanna) with over 1,000 pupils
• 35 primary schools (Bunscoileanna) with over 3,000 pupils
• 2 second level gaelscoileanna (Gaelcholte) with over 800 pupils
• 3 Irish language streams (Sruith LGhaeilge)

The British Council administers a scheme to recruit Irish language assistants for English-medium schools in Northern Ireland.[20]
In 2013, there were 309 entries for A-Level examinations in Irish and 2,078 for GCSE.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie I am getting tired of this particular discussion, but if it is a genuine question I will explain again.

I was pointing out that funding was not required for a culture to flourish. I made the comment that orange bands don’t receive funding. You lept on this particular part of my post and Google searched to find what you thought was a few orange bands receiving tiny crumbs compared to what some cultures receive.
You used this to say, here is Downcow at it again telling lies.

I pointed out that your interpretation was rather pedantic, accepted that I did not mean orange culture has never got a penny. But I went on to ask you to give me the name of one Orange band that has received funding (and simply explained that I would read it in the same pedantic way you read my post, to ensure its accuracy)

you have now spent the last series of posts putting Google links on but you have yet to name one orange band that recieved funding and yet you say there are loads

Now I am very happy to drop the topic as I am tired of this approach, and would much rather we read each other’s posts with an intention of learning something.

But if you insist on arguing that my statement was inaccurate then you should post the name of an orange band that as received funding - but i will use your pedantic method of interpreting it to check out if i really lied - and if you are correct my apology awaits

You made a statement - it was proved to be untrue.

You accept that what you said was untrue, yet somehow you are still right and correct???

Topgear on Dave

If people don't want to learn Irish they can't be forced or press ganged into it.

This state has for near 100 years run compulsory irish from the day you start school til leaving cert.

We're still arguing here day in day out in English.

I think barely anybody has ever said a word to me in Irish since I left school.

BonnieSituation

Frank Castle wrote: »

Never shut down discourse. It is a good thing and should not be ignored or censored. You don't have to agree with people, but ignore them is what leads to the situation we have in the north.

Communication isn't always easy and can be frustrating, but don't give up on it.

It is better to change the focus of the conservation than to walk away from it

I appreciate what you are trying to say, but there's shutting down discourse and then pandering to the willfully ignorant.

I'm all for talking through things with anyone but the last few pages have been clear lessons in futility to my mind.

Our time is better served outlining the possibility and positivity of a UI not arguing about funding for sectarian organisations.

BonnieSituation

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

If people don't want to learn Irish they can't be forced or press ganged into it.

This state has for near 100 years run compulsory irish from the day you start school til leaving cert.

We're still arguing here day in day out in English.

I think barely anybody has ever said a word to me in Irish since I left school.

And?

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I was pointing out that funding was not required for a culture to flourish.

It depends on the culture and its requirements. Bands need instruments (which can be handed down) and a place to meet (which could be in a local hall, school etc). Something like rugby/football needs a pitch, changing facilities, equipment, referee etc. Difficult to flourish without facilities.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You made a statement - it was proved to be untrue.

You accept that what you said was untrue, yet somehow you are still right and correct???

Francie you are still ducking it. You said I was wrong but yet you cannot give me one single example of a orange band receiving funding.
No more links. Just the name of a band?

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I appreciate what you are trying to say, but there's shutting down discourse and then pandering to the willfully ignorant.

I'm all for talking through things with anyone but the last few pages have been clear lessons in futility to my mind.

Our time is better served outlining the possibility and positivity of a UI not arguing about funding for sectarian organisations.

....and that’s just me was doing that bonnie? I think we’ve just had a demonstration of sectarianism

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

It depends on the culture and its requirements. Bands need instruments (which can be handed down) and a place to meet (which could be in a local hall, school etc). Something like rugby/football needs a pitch, changing facilities, equipment, referee etc. Difficult to flourish without facilities.

Point taken. But they must teach a point where the community care enough to make them self sustaining. And I’ve already accepted there are exceptions to this

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie you are still ducking it. You said I was wrong but yet you cannot give me one single example of a orange band receiving funding.
No more links. Just the name of a band?

Ducking what?

You have already said that you are wrong and that I was 'pedantically' interpreting your statement.

What are you defining as an 'Orange Band' by the way, as I define it as a band attached to and using an Orange lodge.

And two bands on that list picked at random are that, I haven't time or indeed the inclination to look at more.

Tyrone Ditches Pipe Band and Crown Defenders Flute Band

RobMc59

We have Protestant and Catholic cathedrals here in Liverpool with traditional strong ties to Ireland-and never have any discord.

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/mol/exhibitions/orange-lodge/

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ducking what?

You have already said that you are wrong and that I was 'pedantically' interpreting your statement.

What are you defining as an 'Orange Band' by the way, as I define it as a band attached to and using an Orange lodge.

And two bands on that list picked at random are that, I haven't time or indeed the inclination to look at more.

Tyrone Ditches Pipe Band and Crown Defenders Flute Band

That’s fine I am glad we have brought this nonsense to an end. I am am happy I have been proved correct.
You can redefine orange band if you wish but bottom line is that neither of those bands are an Orange band.
So I trust going forward we won’t get pedantic to win arguments and try and take what each says in the spirit it is meant. I certainly will

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

That’s fine I am glad we have brought this nonsense to an end. I am am happy I have been proved correct.
You can redefine orange band if you wish but bottom line is that neither of those bands are an Orange band.
So I trust going forward we won’t get pedantic to win arguments and try and take what each says in the spirit it is meant. I certainly will

So what is this secret definition of an Orange band then?

droidman123

RobMc59 wrote: »

We have Protestant and Catholic cathedrals here in Liverpool with traditional strong ties to Ireland-and never have any discord.

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/mol/exhibitions/orange-lodge/

Why would there be discord?liverpool is not occupied by a foreign country

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

That’s fine I am glad we have brought this nonsense to an end.

I am am happy I have been proved correct.
You can redefine orange band if you wish but bottom line is that neither of those bands are an Orange band.
So I trust going forward we won’t get pedantic to win arguments and try and take what each says in the spirit it is meant. I certainly will

This is the classic exit statement of your goodself. You got nailed on your nonsense and have spent 2 days talking around it to the point where the original question has been last to the ether of whataboutery.

You and your ilk are hilarious.

21 years since the GFA was signed and you still have issues with themmuns having the temerity of thinking they're equal.

RobMc59

droidman123 wrote: »

Why would there be discord?liverpool is not occupied by a foreign country

Neither is Ireland according to the GFA

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

You see i have always believed strongly that culture is something that communities hold on to if valuable.
I don't believe any gov money should support culture. If a community believe something is worth holding on to then they will.
Once gov get involved in promoting certain aspects of culture then i get suspicious that they are steering it.
GAA and orange bands are good examples of culture that thrive without funding - although GAA is now getting lots but i don't think that will make it stronger.

why should govs be allowed to decide what cultures are important?.

Now 'compulsory' is the antithesis of 'culture'. If it is compulsory then it is certainly not culture. Culture is something people choose to participate in. If it needs to be compulsory then obviously most don't value it

What you think?

Fair points except that Irish wasn't exactly encouraged under British rule and that played a major role in it's decline. It wasn't that millions of native Irish simply lost interest. I would suggest our language is an inherent part of the culture and it would be shameful to stop supporting it.

maccored

downcow wrote: »

That’s fine I am glad we have brought this nonsense to an end. I am am happy I have been proved correct.
You can redefine orange band if you wish but bottom line is that neither of those bands are an Orange band.
So I trust going forward we won’t get pedantic to win arguments and try and take what each says in the spirit it is meant. I certainly will

Does this mean the Tyrone Ditches Pipe Band arent allowed to use their Orange Hall?

Farawayhome

It was actually very lucky that Ireland had some media attention on it in the early 70's. If not, the mass murders such as Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy, Dublin/Monaghan bombings, etc would have continued unabated. We know this because the British security forces committed these types of atrocities elsewhere and continue to do so. For example, in Kenya, not long before the brought their terror to Ireland, they were raping women with glass bottles and castrating men. Mass murdering civilians has been a common activity for the British armed forces, just as starving native populations and setting up concentration camps has been also.

downcow

What is evident reading all our posts is that we are a long way off being ready for an all Ireland.
I am ok with that but you guys that want UI need to work a little harder at compromise

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

What is evident reading all our posts is that we are a long way off being ready for an all Ireland.
I am ok with that but you guys that want UI need to work a little harder at compromise

You are indeed a long way off. Your Nolan email and other stuff you have posted tells me that you are in a relatively minor percentile of those who will never accept a UI or even talk of one.
There is a percentile there that can be convinced though. The moderates will win the day imo.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

What is evident reading all our posts is that we are a long way off being ready for an all Ireland.
I am ok with that but you guys that want UI need to work a little harder at compromise

Is this part of the loyalist campaign I've heard about to put people in the ROI off the thought of UI by being as awkward as possible?

You need to be careful about not over doing it, because people in the ROI might feel sorry for the vast majority of people in NI who want to live in a state ruled by people who still think they are still living in the 16th century.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

What is evident reading all our posts is that we are a long way off being ready for an all Ireland.
I am ok with that but you guys that want UI need to work a little harder at compromise

We need to compromise?

It's like a unionist play by play.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

We need to compromise?

It's like a unionist play by play.

You only have to look at the list of 'No's' from the belligerent no compromise Never Never wing of Unionism:

Anglo Irish Agreement = No
The Good Friday Agreement = No
Extend equal status to those who identify as Irish (language rights etc) = No
Invitation to partake on numerous 'shared future' fora = No
Invitation to commemorate our various centenaries = No
Invitation to discuss the shared problems and/or opportunities of Brexit = No

That's just of the top of my head.
Compromise?

RobMc59

downcow wrote: »

What is evident reading all our posts is that we are a long way off being ready for an all Ireland.
I am ok with that but you guys that want UI need to work a little harder at compromise

You are correct-some posters idea of 'compromise'appears to be-'do as we say and don't be awkward!'