Border Poll discussion

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

I think if we have learnt anything from Jonny’s cryptic posts it is that we should not make sweeping assumptions of people because of the organisations they belong to.
And I am with him 100% on that

A persons culture and identity is like an onion there is many layers to it

It's funny you should say that, because I said the complete and utter opposite.

Why you must continuosly misrepresent what has been posted is bizzare but not unexpected.

ancapailldorcha

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

One second there. Isn't Protestantism, the religion of the vast majority of Unionists, scripturally anti-Catholic?

Scripturally not at all. There's nothing in the Book of Common Prayer about Catholics at all. In fact, there are parts of the scripture and catechisms that still refer to the "Catholic Church". All British Protestantism really is Catholicism with the Pope removed along with a few other bits.

Junkyard Tom

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Scripturally not at all. There's nothing in the Book of Common Prayer about Catholics at all. In fact, there are parts of the scripture and catechisms that still refer to the "Catholic Church". All British Protestantism really is Catholicism with the Pope removed along with a few other bits.

So when Paisley was banging on about a papist conspiracy and anti-Christ this-and-that he was pulling it out of his own arse? I haven't a clue about Protestantism for what it's worth.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

One second there. Isn't Protestantism, the religion of the vast majority of Unionists, scripturally anti-Catholic?

There seems a great desire here to put everyone neatly into little boxes. Hence my comment that we are all very complex. (Well most of us - seems a couple of people on here don’t like complexity and diversity)

briany

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

So when Paisley was banging on about a papist conspiracy and anti-Christ this-and-that he was pulling it out of his own arse? I haven't a clue about Protestantism for what it's worth.

Ian Paisley was a Protestant evangelical of the particularly fiery type. He and Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church probably could have found a lot they agreed on, chief among the points of agreement being that the Pope was a bad, bad man. It's a common thread of thought in the more fundamentalist branches.

But Protestantism is, literally, a broad church, from your tea & scones Anglicans to your firebrand bible thumpers.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I don’t think you should think anything in particular about someone who supports the orange order.

What? For a man praising straight answers from others you are a bit reluctant to go to certain areas of debate yourself.

I am more interested i what you do think of them?

I think it is appalling to be a member of an overtly sectarian organisation.

There is elements of sectarianism across society but to have it blatantly enshrined in your charter is appalling and I think that is why the membership is falling. It is not defend-able in a modern society.

RobMc59

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

So when Paisley was banging on about a papist conspiracy and anti-Christ this-and-that he was pulling it out of his own arse? I haven't a clue about Protestantism for what it's worth.

You are normally fairly moderate and realistic but reading through the last couple of pages of posts you and others are attacking the core values of unionists and protestants-how on earth do you expect them to want to engage with you to discuss a UI when the general impression a unionist would get from this is intolerance and veiled hatred of their way of life?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What? For a man praising straight answers from others you are a bit reluctant to go to certain areas of debate yourself.






I think it is appalling to be a member of an overtly sectarian organisation.

There is elements of sectarianism across society but to have it blatantly enshrined in your charter is appalling and I think that is why the membership is falling. It is not defend-able in a modern society.

I am not here to defend it but I do think it gets overly demonised
Is the Catholic Church sectarian because it won’t let me Join in communion because I am a Protestant?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What? For a man praising straight answers from others you are a bit reluctant to go to certain areas of debate yourself.

It was just a silly question ie what I think you should think of everyone who belongs to an organisation which has 10,000s members.

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

It was just a silly question ie what I think you should think of everyone who belongs to an organisation which has 10,000s members.

I think you're just playing silly beggar's now.

It doesn't matter a jot if an organisation with a set of sectarian bigotry principles as it's Foundation has one member, or 10's of thousands, being a member of said organisation would mean you ascribe to said principles.

Do you think the orange order are a sectarian organisation?

ancapailldorcha

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

So when Paisley was banging on about a papist conspiracy and anti-Christ this-and-that he was pulling it out of his own arse? I haven't a clue about Protestantism for what it's worth.

Yep. British Protestantism comes form Henry VIII's failure to obtain permission for a divorce from Pope Clement VII. It's got nothing to do with hating Catholics at all. Henry VIII was quite a devout Catholic. It's much more likely that he just resented papal hegemony.

Paisley was a firebrand preacher of a radical Protestant sect. For such individuals, extreme language is the order of the day.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What? For a man praising straight answers from others you are a bit reluctant to go to certain areas of debate yourself.






I think it is appalling to be a member of an overtly sectarian organisation.

There is elements of sectarianism across society but to have it blatantly enshrined in your charter is appalling and I think that is why the membership is falling. It is not defend-able in a modern society.

From what I've experienced religious entrenchment is generally fading out,although there are of course some who refuse to move forward and they're not all protestants.
Personally I've noticed religion is becoming less important in Ireland as it's become more cosmopolitan imo-more schools class themselves as non denominational and less people go to church-I'm not sure if that's the same for Irish/NI protestants but it's definitely the case in England.

downcow

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Do you think the orange order are a sectarian organisation?

Yes I agree it was founded on sectarian principles. It’s very reason to exist was to protect the Protestant faith. It’s very clearly in its principals to protect the right of all faiths to exist and free to worship etc.
So yes it is sectarian.
It has a number of strands political community, culture and religion. People join it for a range of reasons. I would contend it is a small minority who join it for religious reasons - they can do that in their churches if they are so inclined.

The orange order and the RC church are open about their sectarian rules unlike eg the gaa where it is much more hidden but just as effective at keeping out people who are different

So in short. Yes

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

The orange order and the RC church are open about their sectarian rules unlike eg the gaa where it is much more hidden but just as effective at keeping out people who are different

GAA President encourages Protestants to play Gaelic games

The President of the GAA, Mr Nickey Brennan, in an interview with the Church of Ireland Hard Gospel Project, has encouraged Protestants in the Republic and Northern Ireland to feel ‘welcome to come and play’ and that ‘there is nothing within the GAA that will stop people from joining’. Mr Brennan’s comments come in the wake of the historical significance of the visit of the English rugby team to the sacred home of Irish nationalism following the GAA’s amended Rule 42, which allows Croke Park host rugby and soccer matches during the re-development of Lansdowne Road.

volchitsa

briany wrote: »

Ian Paisley was a Protestant evangelical of the particularly fiery type. He and Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church probably could have found a lot they agreed on, chief among the points of agreement being that the Pope was a bad, bad man. It's a common thread of thought in the more fundamentalist branches.

But Protestantism is, literally, a broad church, from your tea & scones Anglicans to your firebrand bible thumpers.

Anglicans aren't Protestant though. They're Catholic, but not Roman Catholic.
So we're still out on the "do Protestants oppose Catholicism as a matter of principle" thing. (I'm not sure of the answer so won't attempt to reply. )

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I am not here to defend it but I do think it gets overly demonised
Is the Catholic Church sectarian because it won’t let me Join in communion because I am a Protestant?

The Orange Order isn't a religion.

Roman Catholic law is not solely directed at Protestants either.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

It was just a silly question ie what I think you should think of everyone who belongs to an organisation which has 10,000s members.

It is easy to label questions you don't want to answer as 'silly'.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is easy to label questions you don't want to answer as 'silly'.

Well I still think it’s silly but I’ll answer it.
I believe no one should try and work out what type of person someone is by the rack that they belong to a particular organisation. With obvious exceptions like the kkk. Happy now

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Orange Order isn't a religion.

Roman Catholic law is not solely directed at Protestants either.

But for many it is religious in the same way as the Catholic orders eg aoh

Is it ok cause Catholic descriminate against every one? And they did reserve the mist extreme punishments for prod throughout history.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Well I still think it’s silly but I’ll answer it.
I believe no one should try and work out what type of person someone is by the rack that they belong to a particular organisation. With obvious exceptions like the kkk. Happy now

You are bending over backwards not to call someone who is a signed up member of an avowed sectarian organisation, sectarian themselves.
It's a familiar unionist two-step to be honest.

downcow

volchitsa wrote: »

Anglicans aren't Protestant though. They're Catholic, but not Roman Catholic.
So we're still out on the "do Protestants oppose Catholicism as a matter of principle" thing. (I'm not sure of the answer so won't attempt to reply. )

Well I think Protestant is directly associated with protesting against the ‘errors’ of the RC church - the old 95 thesis. But I think most Protestants would argue that they took the faith back to how it should be. This is why they believe st Patrick to be one of their own.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are bending over backwards not to call someone who is a signed up member of an avowed sectarian organisation, sectarian themselves.
It's a familiar unionist two-step to be honest.

Not at all. But I am watching the familiar nationalist belief that everyone else is sectarian but not us.
I am sectarian. It is practically impossible to grow up in this place and not be sectarian. I am also vehemently anti-sectarian. I work hard at my own sectarianism. But I once thought I wasn’t sectarian and the nationalists were the main problem.
Nothing frustrates much more than listening to people claim to be non-sectarian and then trump out some of the most prejudiced sectarian nonsense. That’s why I find this thread at times frustrating.

You hadn’t asked me of orange men were sectarian. But now that you have I will gladly answer.
Some of the most sectarian people I know are members of the OO and some of the least sectarian people I know are members of the OO. I can also say exactly the same about the gaa and indeed about most groups I belong to.
I honestly don’t see a difference in the range of sectarianism in the OO than in most groups.
So in short to say a person is sectarian to me is a nonsense as most of us on on that continuum somewhere. And I am absolutely certain that you and a few guys on here will need to expose yourselves to engaging with diversity if you are going to journey towards the non sectarian end of the continuum

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Not at all. But I am watching the familiar nationalist belief that everyone else is sectarian but not us.
I am sectarian. It is practically impossible to grow up in this place and not be sectarian. I am also vehemently anti-sectarian. I work hard at my own sectarianism. But I once thought I wasn’t sectarian and the nationalists were the main problem.
Nothing frustrates much more than listening to people claim to be non-sectarian and then trump out some of the most prejudiced sectarian nonsense. That’s why I find this thread at times frustrating.

You hadn’t asked me of orange men were sectarian. But now that you have I will gladly answer.
Some of the most sectarian people I know are members of the OO and some of the least sectarian people I know are members of the OO. I can also say exactly the same about the gaa and indeed about most groups I belong to.
I honestly don’t see a difference in the range of sectarianism in the OO than in most groups.
So in short to say a person is sectarian to me is a nonsense as most of us on on that continuum somewhere. And I am absolutely certain that you and a few guys on here will need to expose yourselves to engaging with diversity if you are going to journey towards the non sectarian end of the continuum

The point is downcow - if you join an organisation that is sectarian then you are too. It is there, in your decision to join it. It is a conscious and deliberate act. There is no middle ground.

Many many unionist take a conscious decision NOT to join it and year on year membership is falling. Which is a good thing. Getting unionists leaders to stop playing the two-step games around this, is the next step.

jm08

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

So when Paisley was banging on about a papist conspiracy and anti-Christ this-and-that he was pulling it out of his own arse? I haven't a clue about Protestantism for what it's worth.

Anglican (Church of Ireland/England) are all catholic - just not roman catholic. The vast majority of protestants in NI are Presbyterian and they have been discriminated in the past by the Established Church of England/Ireland. Breakdown in NI are Roman Catholic 45%, Presbyterian 24%, Anglican 14%. In the ROI, CofI 2.6%, Presbyterians 0.5%.

Dr Ian Paisley was a follower of Bob Jones, an American evangelist who was particularly fundamentalist and a racist (his university I think have only recently apologised for their racist past). Its his teaching that they reject evolution, the devil's buttermilk etc. Paisley got his doctorate from the Bob Jones University.

RobMc59

At the end of the day,if the people of NI aren't particularly bothered about a border referendum that's that-you've got to suck it up until the situation changes.All this talk of religion and sectarianism isn't relevant to the discussion.

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

At the end of the day,if the people of NI aren't particularly bothered about a border referendum that's that-you've got to suck it up until the situation changes.All this talk of religion and sectarianism isn't relevant to the discussion.

Who has got to suck up what?

Farawayhome

RobMc59 wrote: »

At the end of the day,if the people of NI aren't particularly bothered about a border referendum that's that-you've got to suck it up until the situation changes.All this talk of religion and sectarianism isn't relevant to the discussion.

Why can't violence be used?

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Anglican (Church of Ireland/England) are all catholic - just not roman catholic. The vast majority of protestants in NI are Presbyterian and they have been discriminated in the past by the Established Church of England/Ireland. Breakdown in NI are Roman Catholic 45%, Presbyterian 24%, Anglican 14%. In the ROI, CofI 2.6%, Presbyterians 0.5%.

Dr Ian Paisley was a follower of Bob Jones, an American evangelist who was particularly fundamentalist and a racist (his university I think have only recently apologised for their racist past). Its his teaching that they reject evolution, the devil's buttermilk etc. Paisley got his doctorate from the Bob Jones University.

Yeah that’s my understanding. Pretty accurate analysis.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The point is downcow - if you join an organisation that is sectarian then you are too. It is there, in your decision to join it. It is a conscious and deliberate act. There is no middle ground.

Many many unionist take a conscious decision NOT to join it and year on year membership is falling. Which is a good thing. Getting unionists leaders to stop playing the two-step games around this, is the next step.

You like things to be black and white and simplistic.
What is the criteria you use to decide if an organisation is sectarian?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You like things to be black and white and simplistic.
What is the criteria you use to decide if an organisation is sectarian?

downcow, there is no getting away from the well known fact that the OO is a sectarian organisation.